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Thread: Where the MAGA cult would like to take the USA.

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    Default Where the MAGA cult would like to take the USA.

    .
    From Heather Cox Richardson's "Letters from an American," May 19, 2022:

    ... the Conservative Political Action Committee (CPAC), the influential right-wing PAC of the American Conservative Union, is holding its first European event, convening today in Budapest, Hungary. Its leaders have chosen Hungary apparently because they see that country as a model for the society they would like to see in the U.S. under a strongman leader like rising authoritarian prime minister Viktor Orbán of Hungary.

    Orbán is the architect of what he calls “illiberal democracy,” or “Christian democracy.” This form of government holds nominal elections, although their outcome is preordained because the government controls all the media and has silenced opposition. Illiberal democracy rejects modern liberal democracy because the equality it champions means an acceptance of immigrants, LGBTQ rights, and women’s rights and an end to traditionally patriarchal society. Orbán’s model of minority rule promises a return to a white-dominated, religiously based society, and he has pushed his vision by eliminating the independent press, cracking down on political opposition, getting rid of the rule of law, and dominating the economy with a group of crony oligarchs.

    Led by personalities like Tucker Carlson, the American right wing embraces the Hungarian model, despite the corruption, lack of legal accountability, and attacks on the press that make Hungary the only member of the European Union no longer rated as “free” by democracy watchdog Freedom House. As if in illustration of Orbán’s policies, U.S. journalists were not allowed into CPAC today.

    Orbán gave the keynote speech at the CPAC convention. In it, he embraced the “great replacement theory” that says white people are being replaced by immigrants of color. This is the myth that motivated the shooter in Buffalo, New York, last weekend, when he murdered ten people and wounded three others. It is the myth from which most Republicans have tried to distance themselves since the Buffalo killings.

    And yet, when CPAC leader Matt Schlapp met U.S. journalists outside, he said that ending abortion rights would address the great replacement myth: “If you say there is a population problem in a country, but you’re killing millions of your own people through legalized abortion every year, if that were to be reduced, some of that problem is solved,” Schlapp said. “You have millions of people who can take many of these jobs. How come no one brings that up? If you’re worried about this quote-unquote replacement, why don’t we start there? Start with allowing our own people to live.”

    Orbán told the attendees that the right wing in Europe and the United States must fight together to “reconquer” institutions in Brussels and Washington, D.C., before the 2024 election because those “liberals” who currently control them are destroying western civilization.

    It is surprising to see folks who talk about American greatness take their inspiration from the leader of a small central European country of fewer than 10 million people, about the size of Michigan. Yale philosophy professor Jason Stanley commented: “Oh come on US conservatives, stop embarrassing yourselves. Have some dignity and national pride.”
    "If you're a Republican, you can't even lie to Congress or lie to an FBI agent or they're coming after you."

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Fascist single party state, anyone?
    Madeleine Albright, former United States Secretary of State explained in her book "Fascism: A Warning" (Harper, 2019). However, core fascist ideologies and goals espoused by the likes of Hitler and Mussolini are still present in populist organizations today, and continue to shape fascist movements in countries around the world, particularly where their leaders are "someone who claims to speak for a whole nation or group, is utterly unconcerned with the rights of others, and is willing to use violence and whatever other means are necessary to achieve the goals he or she might have," Albright wrote.
    I know, Godwin in one.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    .
    From NPR:

    It might seem strange that a nationalist conservative group identified with Donald Trump and America First is holding its annual meeting this week in Hungary.

    CPAC, the Conservative Political Action Conference, is one of the biggest gatherings of conservatives in the world, and Budapest makes sense when you consider that this year's keynote speaker — Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban — is a hero to some.

    "Right now, the political leader of the conservative resistance in the West is the prime minister of a small central European [country] that most Americans never even think about," Rod Dreher of The American Conservative said at a conservatism conference last year.

    Orban has been criticized as a white ethno-nationalist authoritarian. He's restricted Muslim immigration and LGBTQ rights while building a close relationship with Russian President Vladimir Putin. Many American conservatives, however, see Orban's Hungary as a kind of anti-woke paradise.

    Fox News host Tucker Carlson, one of the most prominent proponents of the idea that minorities are replacing white Western civilization, broadcast his show from Budapest last summer.

    "If you care about Western civilization and democracy and families and the ferocious assaults on all three of those things by the leaders of our global institutions, you should know what is happening here right now," Carlson said, while in Hungary.

    Matt Schlapp, the chairman of CPAC, says there's a lot about Orban and Hungary for American conservatives to admire.

    "He has embraced their Christian heritage, and if Christian societies want to have their values reflected in government, that's a good thing," Schlapp said.

    Orban is one of Donald Trump's favorite foreign leaders
    In 2019, Trump invited Orban to the Oval Office, a gesture the previous two U.S. presidents had avoided.

    "Viktor Orban has done a tremendous job in so many different ways — highly respected, respected all over Europe — probably, like me, a little bit controversial, but that's OK," Trump said at the time.

    Princeton sociologist Kim Scheppele, an expert on Hungarian politics, says Trump's relationship with Orban is different than the typical good relations an American president might have with a foreign leader.

    "All of the international democracy rating agencies agree that Hungary is no longer a democracy. And the U.S. hasn't had a president be best buddies with a dictator before," Scheppele says.

    Right now, both American conservatism and Hungarian politics are driven by cultural issues — like immigration, gender identity and abortion. And Scheppele says in Hungary, the culture wars are on the surface while the push for autocracy is just below.

    "All the culture war campaigns have been used to disguise the fact that, by law, Orban has been limiting the democratic space. And he's done that particularly by rigging the election laws and then capturing all of the independent agencies that could tell him no," she said.

    Orban has packed the courts – and the press in Hungary is also controlled by Orban loyalists. That's something Schlapp dismisses by attacking the U.S. mainstream media.

    "There has been some criticisms of the freedom of the press in Hungary, as there are in many of the countries where we visit. But I think we are struggling with these problems right here in America," Schlapp says. "and we really don't have the right to look down our nose at what other people are doing with the press."

    So what does this tell us about American politics?
    Scheppele says Hungary has become the leading model for MAGA.

    "What it tells us about the American Republican Party is that it realizes it's not alone, that there are international models, that they can learn from these," she says.

    And right now, says Scheppele, Orban is showing the way.

    "What Orban has really perfected is how to keep reelecting leaders whose aspirations are absolutely not to maintain a democracy, but rather the opposite: to lock in power forever to a small group of people. When you raise that question now in the United States, people don't automatically say that's a bad idea."

    What Orban is doing is not only not a bad idea to conservative thought leaders like Dreher, it's an existential necessity.

    "We are living, right now, through an ongoing societal catastrophe with gender confusion and transgenderism. Viktor Orban wants to save his nation from this ideological toxin and does not hesitate to use the power of the state to do so, even if it might violate the spirit of liberalism," Dreher said.

    Liberalism in this sense means democracy with checks and balances, an independent judiciary and a tolerance for diversity of backgrounds and opinions. When CPAC comes to Hungary, Dreher and others say it will be able to see what a nationalist conservative government can accomplish. So whether it's coming from Donald Trump, Tucker Carlson or CPAC, the message from the top is clear: conservative activists have a lot to learn from a self-described illiberal leader like Viktor Orban.

    https://www.npr.org/2022/05/18/10996...ace-in-hungary
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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Schlapp needs a good slap. Stop killing millions of babies but go ahead and kill 40K citizens a year and fervently oppose and reasonable gun control measures...

    If Carlson and Schlapp are so godammed enamored of Orban, they should pack their bags and be gone.

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Why this CPAC event doesn’t send half of the party running for the hills, I do not get.

    How anyone with a relative who was involved with WWII hasn’t seen the handwriting on the wall…
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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    christian democracy....yea i just spit up a bit...not funny haha spit.

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Why this CPAC event doesn’t send half of the party running for the hills, I do not get.

    How anyone with a relative who was involved with WWII hasn’t seen the handwriting on the wall…
    Those relatives are mostly dead by now. The new generation always thinks that they know better than their grandparents.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Fascist single party state, anyone?
    Ironic, isn't it. They favor single party states, but not single payer health insurance.
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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    When was the last time you can recall that the GOP approved of or voted in favor of anything that was actually beneficial to the general population?
    They have recently voted against voting rights, against child care, health care, universal pre K, abortion rights, gun control, child tax credits, meaningful environmental legislation....

    And now it seems they are ready to simply dismantle our system of republican democracy just because the Democrats are in favor of it. What is their end game?

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    You were already there in 1939, Madison Square Garden.3930F52E-A1D8-4EAE-968C-21C383292B7E.jpg

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by willin woodworks View Post
    When was the last time you can recall that the GOP approved of or voted in favor of anything that was actually beneficial to the general population?
    They have recently voted against voting rights, against child care, health care, universal pre K, abortion rights, gun control, child tax credits, meaningful environmental legislation....

    And now it seems they are ready to simply dismantle our system of republican democracy just because the Democrats are in favor of it. What is their end game?
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Fascist single party state?
    Party members get to nominate the committee members, who select the dictator.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Assuming the end game is to install Trump as the King, do any of these jerk-offs not understand that he is a fickle, feckless douche-bag who will turn on any one of them in a heartbeat? If their goal is to be all Trump, all the time, what happens when he really goes off the rails and does bomb Mexican drug labs, or does cozy up to Orban or Assad or some other nut case strong man? Is that where they think this country should wind up?
    What happens to Tucker when he publicly disagrees with Trump on TV? Perhaps he gets beheaded or strapped to the front of an artillery piece like Kim's uncle.
    I cant imagine where they will eventually draw the line.

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    I think calling folks out like this crosses forum etiquette but to the topic the problem will get worse with recession.

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    I think calling folks out like this crosses forum etiquette but to the topic the problem will get worse with recession.
    A bit near the knuckle, with some big assumptions.
    So perhaps the tree of them will write a reasoned rebuttal of the association between them and the quoted CPAC?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    So ya like where the current regime has taken us, figures.

    "Just one in five Americans think the United States is headed on the right track, while about 73 percent think it is going off track, the lowest percentage of Americans who are happy with the direction of the country since President Obama took office in 2009, according to a new poll from CBS News."

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    A bit near the knuckle, with some big assumptions.
    So perhaps the tree of them will write a reasoned rebuttal of the association between them and the quoted CPAC?
    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    So ya like where the current regime has taken us, figures.

    "Just one in five Americans think the United States is headed on the right track, while about 73 percent think it is going off track, the lowest percentage of Americans who are happy with the direction of the country since President Obama took office in 2009, according to a new poll from CBS News."
    So, no reasoned rebuttal from this one then.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    So ya like where the current regime has taken us, figures.

    "Just one in five Americans think the United States is headed on the right track, while about 73 percent think it is going off track, the lowest percentage of Americans who are happy with the direction of the country since President Obama took office in 2009, according to a new poll from CBS News."
    Wp, while demographic changes and hard economic times provide fertile ground for white nationalism, and other reactionary forces in other cultures, it doesn’t mean your game of demonizing others provides a solution for those changes.

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa
    So, no reasoned rebuttal from this one then.
    Of course not.
    "If you're a Republican, you can't even lie to Congress or lie to an FBI agent or they're coming after you."

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG
    I think calling folks out like this crosses forum etiquette....
    Is it rude "calling out" if it is simply elucidation of what they agree with and support?

    But perhaps they do not agree with and support CPAC and its goals and its supporters?
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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    So ya like where the current regime has taken us, figures.

    "Just one in five Americans think the United States is headed on the right track, while about 73 percent think it is going off track, the lowest percentage of Americans who are happy with the direction of the country since President Obama took office in 2009, according to a new poll from CBS News."
    People tend to respond to poll questions like that by thinking of a few things they don't like and responding negatively. It does not mean "We would prefer Trump!" I seriously doubt that an election today would elect Trump in a 3:1 majority.
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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    I'd leave out Boatbum; I don't think he's a fascist. Fellow traveler at worst. (How's that for an old obscure phrase?)

    In some of the Madison Square Garden photos from 1939 you can see the swastika flags; they kept them mostly around the edges and off the stage.
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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I'd leave out Boatbum; I don't think he's a fascist. Fellow traveler at worst. (How's that for an old obscure phrase?)

    In some of the Madison Square Garden photos from 1939 you can see the swastika flags; they kept them mostly around the edges and off the stage.
    Yep, one is visible in Jim's photo
    You had children led by the nose, we had the Mitford sisters.

    I have invited Woodpile, Boatbum and Bobbys to write a rebuttal setting out why they disagree with that CPAC, so far crickets.
    Woodpile has read the thread (another big assumption) so knows of the invite.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    . . . we had the Mitford sisters..
    Had to look them up; they're pretty much unknown here, except for the author. They look soooooooo English.

    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 05-20-2022 at 11:02 AM.
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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult would like to take the USA.

    I 'shared' post 21 on FB - curious to see if it gets flagged/deleted.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    I 'shared' post 21 on FB - curious to see if it gets flagged/deleted.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    So ya like where the current regime has taken us, figures.

    "Just one in five Americans think the United States is headed on the right track, while about 73 percent think it is going off track, the lowest percentage of Americans who are happy with the direction of the country since President Obama took office in 2009, according to a new poll from CBS News."
    This is from a CBS story from 2011. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-ju...on-of-country/

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post

    In some of the Madison Square Garden photos from 1939 you can see the swastika flags; they kept them mostly around the edges and off the stage.
    Those sure look like swastikas as part of the backdrop for the stage.
    Maybe if the "flag" is big enough it doesn't count...

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    So ya like where the current regime has taken us, figures.

    "Just one in five Americans think the United States is headed on the right track, while about 73 percent think it is going off track, the lowest percentage of Americans who are happy with the direction of the country since President Obama took office in 2009, according to a new poll from CBS News."
    More from the 2011 poll that the pile quoted.

    Poll: Most want taxes on millionaires increased
    Poll: Views of Congress (again) hit new low
    Poll: 7 in 10 say Obama has not helped economy
    Poll: Nearly 2 in 3 want troops in Afghanistan decreased
    Poll: Half of U.S. says Afghan war not a success

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Had to look them up; they're pretty much unknown here, except for the author. They look soooooooo English.

    Diana and Unity were the fascists, Jessica OTOH fought against the fascists in the Spanish Civil War.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Diana and Unity were the fascists, Jessica OTOH fought against the fascists in the Spanish Civil War.
    Must have made for interesting conversations at family get-togethers.
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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I'd leave out Boatbum; I don't think he's a fascist. Fellow traveler at worst. (How's that for an old obscure phrase?)

    In some of the Madison Square Garden photos from 1939 you can see the swastika flags; they kept them mostly around the edges and off the stage.
    There's another vintage phrase that sometimes comes into play --

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult would like to take the USA.


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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult of bobbys, woodpile and Boatbum would like to take the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    So ya like where the current regime has taken us, figures.

    "Just one in five Americans think the United States is headed on the right track, while about 73 percent think it is going off track, the lowest percentage of Americans who are happy with the direction of the country since President Obama took office in 2009, according to a new poll from CBS News."
    If a U.S. President were to copy what Orban has done, you’re OK with that?

    Schlapp and Dreher to their credit, unlike others, are honest about their beliefs instead of being slippery or evasive. Do you agree with them that the U.S. should follow Hungary’s model?

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult would like to take the USA.

    The nation was founded on an authoritarian premise - that only one class was suitable for governing, that the qualifiers for that status were property ownership and gender, that everyone else was property to be benignly taken care of by the chosen ones, and that pursuing happiness meant making money.

    In the Declaration of Independence those with full citizenship were endowed by a Creator and really, there's no question what that referred to. In that sense the nation is a Christian one, not Abrahamic, not diverse, not disbelieving.

    The core difference between the system set up in the Constitution is that the titular leaders of that system were elected, not inherited from a single human source.

    The so-called Founders simply wanted to keep their earnings and diversify the governance without letting it become a mono-culture.

    I think we have to be realistic about this. And I think we need to admit that the only difference between what the Founders created and Fascism is the absence of a single leader concept. And finally, we need to be realistic about the desire for most people to avoid having to make complicated choices and decisions.

    To one extent or another, most of us either simplify our lives to eliminate the need to make complicated choices, or look to a "higher power" to settle things for us when they get too complicated.

    What the US is facing right now is conflict between the few who actually enjoy the fullness of life's complications and the huge majority who want someone else to take care of it for them, and to a lesser or greater extent will go along with whatever that someone else decides, even when the result is damaging personally.

    God said "only I can fix it". It's so comforting to have someone like God step in and say "don't worry, I'll take care of it."
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

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    Default Re: Where the MAGA cult would like to take the USA.

    MAGA and the religious neo fascists.

    https://19thnews.org/2022/05/oklahom...iage-equality/

    A lesbian mom raised her son for two years. An Oklahoma judge erased that in 15 minutes.

    Kris Williams was removed from her son’s birth certificate in a case experts say could test the boundaries of marriage equality.

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