Ukraine

[skuthorp]

Col. Astore: "It means helping to broker a settlement amenable to both sides."

and after the whole article back to the start.

[Tom Hunter]

@Sandtown Poland borders Ukraine, if Putin takes Ukraine he arrives on Poland's border. That is an undeniable fact. The same is true for Slovakia. Guess who is sending many tanks and aircraft to Ukraine?

If we offered Putin all of Ukraine and promised to murder one out of four refugees, and promised to ignore it when Russia murders 10% of Ukraine's population (which they have done before in the 1930s) the war would end.

[WX]

Now that right there is some Saddam-level hyperbole from 2003, fully worthy of the most frothing-at-the-mouth Neo-Con of that era.

It is just flat-out ridiculous

Then you are ignoring what is happening in Russian occupied Ukraine.

[WszystekPoTrochu]

Now that right there is some Saddam-level hyperbole from 2003, fully worthy of the most frothing-at-the-mouth Neo-Con of that era.

It is just flat-out ridiculous

Dude.

Have you been missing everything that's been going on since 1923? Generously assuming it's system inherent, not nation inherent? All the ultimatums, all the wars, all the fake concerns, all the undermining of social and state structures? All the war crimes, all the genocides, assassinations, either executed by own means or successfully plotted?

Did Saddam, or Khameini, or Milosevic ever send armies to kill protesting civilians of other states?
Did Saddam, or Khameini, or Milosevic ever finance dozens of terrorist attacks thousands of kilometres away?
Did Saddam, or Khameini, or Milosevic ever at least tried to create a network of puppet states with no own power?
Did Saddam, or Khameini, or Milosevic ever exterminate millions of people that didn't even have quarrels with neighbours?
Did Saddam, or Khameini, or Milosevic ever create a network of puppet states with no own power?
Did Saddam, or Khameini, or Milosevic ever make a show of killing former cooperatives thousands of kilometres away?
Did Saddam, or Khameini, or Milosevic ever forcibly displace millions of people, separating children from parents in the process?
Did Saddam, or Khameini, or Milosevic habitually kill more hostages than terrorists on 'rescue actions'?

Iraq, or other bloody dictatorships, or even other genocidal maniacs, are at most just rabid dogs when compared to the devils rooting from moscow.
The putinist regime can be at that point compared only to the gravest offenders of humanity. Saddam did a lot of evil, but it's not the same league. Be serious.
Finding analogies to Iraq would be putting moscow in better light than they deserve to be. Don't embarrass yourself.


USA ain't a saint, but guess what: France wanted to leave NATO, so it did. On good terms, and then returned. Both uncoerced.
Even the putin's friendliest lapdog Lukashenka is treated like sh.t - and you think expecting poor future, shall putin get even longer border with NATO on his terms, scaremongering?

[Gerarddm]

The fight, particularly around Bakhmut, comes down to basically attrition, at least until the Ukrainians mount a counter-offensive in a couple of months or so.

The time-worn rule of thumb is that the attacker needs a three to one superiority does not necessarily hold. I have read opinions that say that due to the disparity in numbers, Ukraine needs to up their kill ratio to 7-8 to one to make a real dent in the Russian horde.

Nazi General Gotthard Heinrici told Lidell Hart that in his opinion, the attacker needs 6-7 to one superiority to counter a well-knit defense with reasonable frontage to cover. In fact he stated that at times his troops successfully held off odds of 12 to 1 or even 18 to 1. And he was fighting Russians, who back then were better led and had better morale.

Napoleon noted that in war the moral was to the physical as three was to one. Which means an inherent advantage for the Ukrainians. If you use that multiplier to the ratios Heinrici mentioned, then the Russians have a very tough nut to crack indeed, and it is no wonder Bakhmut has been able to hold so far.

Lots of Russian 'sausage' will be made this year.

[CollinR]

Paul Perun has released another one of his videos, this one is about the likely effects of "attrition", both human and mechanical, on Ukraine and Russia. I lack the knowledge to link it here, but I am sure that some 'magister internettius' will oblige. Thank you in advance. I wonder what Putin's retirement plan looks like? I don't suppose that it has much in the way of duration.

[JayInOz]

So Collin, you thinking a government operative, or relative of someone killed by Putins actions? Or someone up close and personal for the good of the country or for financial gain? Either is fine with me- I really don't mind

[CollinR]

I really don't know, but I can speculate as follows -

The deed might done by somebody a bit "disposable" (a convict released from Wagner to give some sort of motive, then drugged up to be too stupified to know what he's doing), unfortunately (or fortunately) killed by Putin's bodyguards, who predictably arrive too late to prevent him from shooting the bastard, but in time to make sure that he doesn't get away.....or testify. The whole thing organised by people on the fringes of power in Russia today, looking to grab power, and loot, in the following chaos.

Whether or not this results in a better government in Russia or not, and a happier outlook for the Russian people and the world, I really couldn't begin to guess.

[gypsie]

Paul Perun has released another one of his videos, this one is about the likely effects of "attrition", both human and mechanical, on Ukraine and Russia. I lack the knowledge to link it here, but I am sure that some 'magister internettius' will oblige. Thank you in advance. I wonder what Putin's retirement plan looks like? I don't suppose that it has much in the way of duration.

Hey Colin, when you're writing your reply/post, there's some links/thumbnail images above the text panel. One of them, on the right, looks like a small piece of old film reel - two frames. Click on that and a small text box appears. Copy and paste the Youtube address into that box. The Youtube address will look something like this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CFc1w4QA-M from the search bar at the top of your webpage.


I think Putin will retire just fine. Putin has his vast palace and will have no budget issues. International travel is out, but his country and its minions is almost 25% of the landmass anyway. The fact that history will remember him as a murderer (and not a 'great') will chaffe.

[JayInOz]

Every time he eats or drinks something it will cross his mind that it could be poisoned. Every time one of his staff walk behind him he'll be jittery. Every sound at night could be the assassin he's been dreading. I hope he's utterly miserable right up until it actually happens. JayInOz

[Nicholas Carey]

Paul Perun has released another one of his videos, this one is about the likely effects of "attrition", both human and mechanical, on Ukraine and Russia. I lack the knowledge to link it here, but I am sure that some 'magister internettius' will oblige. Thank you in advance. I wonder what Putin's retirement plan looks like? I don't suppose that it has much in the way of duration.

Here you go.

https://youtu.be/uRboVa5zyUk

[gypsie]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...il-2023-03-28/

Moskalyov was convicted over comments he himself had posted online about the war in Ukraine. But the investigation started after Masha, then 12, drew a picture last April showing Russian missiles raining down on a Ukrainian mother and child, prompting the head of her school to call the police.

WTF

Moskalyov has been separated from his 13-year-old daughter Masha since he was placed under house arrest at the start of this month and she was moved to a children's home in their hometown of Yefremov, south of Moscow.

[Chip-skiff]

Your brother in Christ.

[skuthorp]

Follow the power and the money………… That's how religions survive, and it's a symbiotic relationship. You ignore our sexual scandals and we'll ignore your genocides and massacres.

[dutchpp]

The ISW Russian offensive campaign assessment, March 28.
https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...-march-28-2023

Key Takeaways

• Wagner Group forces have likely taken the AZOM industrial complex in northern Bakhmut and continue to make gains within the city.
• Russian and Ukrainian sources speculated that Lieutenant General Sergei Kuzmenko will replace Colonel General Rustam Muradov as Eastern Military District (EMD) commander.
• Wagner Group Financier Yevgeny Prigozhin may be using his influence in Russia’s mainstream media landscape to present himself as a potential contender in Russia’s 2024 presidential elections.
• High-ranking Russian officials continue to set domestic conditions for a protracted war.
• The cost of Russia’s war in Ukraine is likely continuing to consume a substantial portion of the Russian Federal Budget.
• Russian forces continued ground attacks along the Kupyansk-Svatove-Kreminna line.
• Russian forces continued offensive operations in and around Bakhmut and along the Avdiivka-Donetsk City frontline.
• Russian sources claimed that Ukrainian forces conducted localized ground attacks in Zaporizhia Oblast.
• Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a decree removing the upper age limit for Russian National Guard (Rosgvardia) servicemen serving in occupied Ukraine until January 1, 2026.
• Russian occupation officials continue efforts to expand Russia’s bureaucratic and administrative control of occupied areas of Ukraine.
• The Belarusian Ministry of Foreign Affairs confirmed on March 28 Belarus’ intent to host Russian tactical nuclear weapons in Belarus as Russian President Vladimir Putin announced on March 25.

[WX]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...il-2023-03-28/



WTF

He's done a runner, those that do know where he is ain't saying.

[skuthorp]

For a mob so concerned about nazis the Russians have learned well from their manuals..

[WszystekPoTrochu]

Your brother in Christ.

This is a very old photo, what's the point? Who are you really attacking?

[Johan R]

USA ain't a saint......

Never held to account. If they had been, maybe countries like Russia and China would not act in the same manner. US did not set a good example.

""How hypocritical is it that the Biden Administration has spent $100 billion of our dollars to expel Russia from occupying proportionally less territory in Ukraine that Washington occupies in Syria? And Washington claims to stand for the "international rules-based order," while they decimated an Iraq and Afghanistan that did not attack us, and before that a Serbia that could not have threatened us if it wanted to.""

Bush did what Putin’s doing — so why is he getting away? | The Iraq War: 20 years on | Al Jazeera

The UN has a recent report on the ongoing human rights violations in Libya, it blames the EU and Russia. Not a single comment on NATO or the USA.

USA drone kills people in other sovereign nations, and when it does not get repercussions when doing so, just emboldens other nations to follow likewise.

[sandtown]

This is a very old photo, what's the point? Who are you really attacking?

One among the many tragedies of this war is the split in the Orthodox Church.

I can sort of understanding why the Ukr government has the Rus Orthodox's under attack,

but that does not mean we should pretend it is not happening.

[L.W. Baxter]

"How hypocritical is it that the Biden Administration has spent $100 billion of our dollars to expel Russia from occupying proportionally less territory in Ukraine that Washington occupies in Syria?"...

one can find hypocrisy in any act of man. moral purity is an ideal that doesn't exist. demanding purity from another is the commonest refuge.

the peoples of the world can collectively judge, do they want a world in which the u.s.a. meddles militarily in regional conflicts, including stymieing russian intentions to rebuild the soviet empire? or would they prefer a world in which the u.s. withdraws behind its borders, announces "neutrality" like a giant version switzerland, and a new age of imperialism and conquest begins?

well, the people have spoken, by and large.

is there "hypocrisy" to be found in the actions of the u.s.a., as it plays at global cop...and judge, jury, and executioner? of course. is the projection of u.s. military power analogous to that of the russian federation, of similar means, motives and ends? no.

and the world collectively says no. nations on russias borders ask for help from the u.s.. they would prefer to be occupied by u.s. forces than russian. why is that.

nations in the sphere of china invite u.s. military presence. they prefer a u.s. naval base to chinese ships in their territorial waters. why is that.

the choices made reflect real differences between the u.s. and russia, or the u.s. and china. doesn't make the u.s. blameless, or absolve anyone of "hypocrisy". but it reflects the realistic options on the table, for each to choose.

[Canoez]

Wagner Group Financier Yevgeny Prigozhin may be using his influence in Russia’s mainstream media landscape to present himself as a potential contender in Russia’s 2024 presidential elections.

Sounds like a sure-fire way for Prigozhin to find his way to a window.

[Johan R]

One among the many tragedies of this war is the split in the Orthodox Church.

I can sort of understanding why the Ukr government has the Rus Orthodox's under attack,

but that does not mean we should pretend it is not happening.

The UN, Amnesty International and the EU have all spoken out about Ukraine's actions against priests, monks and places of worship. Not the behaviour expected of a country who wishes to join the EU any time soon.

[birlinn]

As the priests and monks are Russian Orthodox and supporting Russia and Putin, what do you expect?
Hence the formation of the independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

The UN, Amnesty International and the EU have all spoken out about Ukraine's actions against priests, monks and places of worship. Not the behaviour expected of a country who wishes to join the EU any time soon.

You may find this helpful. Note the date of autocephalous status:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthod...rch_of_Ukraine

[Johan R]

You may find this helpful.

What part of Religious Freedom do you and Zelensky not understand?

Article 9: Freedom of thought, belief and religion | Equality and Human Rights Commission (equalityhumanrights.com)


In other news, Denmark has salvaged a "box" (suspected to be a transmitter) from the sea bed next to Nord Stream 2, according to France 24.

[Johan R]

the peoples of the world can collectively judge, do they want a world in which the u.s.a. meddles militarily in regional conflicts, including stymieing russian intentions to rebuild the soviet empire?

Utter garbage. US ignores the UN and acts independently whenever it suits its own agenda.

. ...but it reflects the realistic options on the table, for each to choose.

Not really. Ronnie Kray walks into a pub with a hammer in each hand, beats your customers and smashes your bar and leaves, 2 minutes later, Reggie Kray walks in and offers you a deal for "protection", for a fee. The US has a long history of creating the problem they end up going to fight, while only the name on the list of terrorist organisations change, the people are mostly the same. Nothing more than a thuggish shake down, kabuki theatre. Only this time you are pushing two peer nation states together, and given China the opportunity to get a peace deal done, none of which the US really wants.

[lupussonic]

You are right Johan. But you're not right about this.

Rather than write you a list of why Russia are immoral in THIS war, just work it out. It's really simple.

I thought Lew summed it up nicely. The 'West' isn't perfect but it's really the only choice.

[heimlaga]

Finland was forced to go the same route once upon a time. There are quite a few orthodox congregations especially in Eastern Finland and after Finland became independent it was found necsessary to cut all ties with the Russian orthodox church an instead become an independent church under the partiarcate of Constantinople. To the extent that the orthodox church in Finland makes a point of being Greek Orthodox not Russian Orthodox.

In the old Russian empire the state and the church and the emperor were all closely intertwined. The state saw itself as administrators on behalf of the emperor. The emperor saw himself as almightly leader appointed by God. Every compromize with the people would to him have been tretchery against God. The Church saw itself as the upholder of the empire. Under Putin this old system is being reborn.

I am not an orthhodox christian but I know people who are and they do certainly welcome their new Greek Orthodox brethren!

I wonder what Jeshua bin Youssef himself the pacifist and antiimperialist and advocate of the small and the weak would say about patriarch Kirill..............

[Nicholas Carey]

One among the many tragedies of this war is the split in the Orthodox Church.

Might want to look at the history of Ukraine and of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine — which was absorbed/put under the control of the Russian Orthodox Church starting in 1685, by Peter the Great, one of the 1st steps in Russia's centuries-long effort to russify Ukraine.

As far as history goes, in the beginning, the Orthodox Church of Ukraine was founded in 988 in Kyiv, which broke with Rome in the Great Schism of 1054. The Russian Orthodox Church broke from the Orthodox Church of Ukraine in 1485. And the Union of Brest in 1596 resulted in the Greek Catholics splitting off and creating the Ruthenian Uniate Church (now the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and the Belarusian Greek Catholic Church).

[I'm sure I'm getting a bunch of stuff wrong, or at least fuzzy — the history of the Eastern Orthodox Church(es) is truly Byzantine in the truest sense of the word, more so than Western Christianity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexa...w_Patriarchate

The Annexation of the Metropolitanate of Kyiv by the Moscow Patriarchate was the transferance of the Metropolis of Kiev, Galicia and all Rus' in the Eastern Orthodox from the ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople to the Patriarchate of Moscow. The metropolis lay in the territory of the Cossack Hetmanate and of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth.

From 1649, the Tsardom of Russia began to absorb the Hetmanate, gradually eliminating Ukrainian political and social institutions. The process culminated in the declaration of the Russian Empire in 1721.[1] As part of this cultural absorption, the Ottoman Empire was enlisted to pressure the Patriarch of Constantinople to transfer the governance of the metropolis to Moscow's canonical jurisdiction in 1686.[1]

[gypsie]

Though the picture of the Challenger and T54 is very cool it would be better to show a Challenger and T62. T62s are showing up more and more often on Twitter and Telegram, the Russians are clearly using them at some scale. Not everywhere, and the Russians still have plenty of better tanks. But they don't have enough T72s and higher.

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/internatio...6021060_4.html

A video published on March 22 on Russian networks showed an unprecedented convoy of T54 and T55 tanks, designed after the Second World War, en route to Ukraine from the Far East.

Apparently there's a lot of cannibalising going on in Russia. Stripping multiple old tanks to make one good (old) tank.

[L.W. Baxter]

why is that.

[Johan R]

You are right Johan. But you're not right about this.

It is just a point of view, the USA is not the benevolent benefactor it likes to make out, the US makes threats backed by violence and China uses money. How has 20 years of occupation raised the living standard of people in Afghanistan? Ask yourself why VP Harris is suddenly in Africa with promises of investment, only after China has done deals; it is not out of the goodness of the US governments heart, they could have invested in Africa at any time. Carrot and stick.

There seems to be a big effort to explain the Orthodox Church and its connection with State without recognizing where peoples "faith" may lay. Do you believe a Russian or Ukrainian babushka is in church praying for the benefit of the State?

[WszystekPoTrochu]

If you wanted to discuss USA, you'd go here:
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...=worst+hegemon

but you don't you only want do water this thread down, don't you

[jdmcintyre]

The following long article about Timothy Snyder is in today's Guardian.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-trump-ukraine


It is interesting in itself but I also hope the fools here will notice that bearing witness to war is not at all the same thing as being a warmonger.