Ukraine

[JayInOz]

Yep. The one that agrees with you and all the other idiots.

[sandtown]

Yep. The one that agrees with you and all the other idiots.

It is not a good look when folks like you claim the right to decide who is, and is not, a good Ukrainian, or USAean for that matter.

Arrogance to the max.

[gypsie]

Lots of very well informed people are calling for negotiations. Why pick on me alone ??

I'll tell you why; it is because you are trying to shut down any sort of reasoned discussion on this thread.

I'm not picking on you Sandtown. Are you actually a grown up?
I'm making a very reasonable observation.

You say, you never said that Ukraine should submit to Russian control - yet you continually do say precisely that by saying they should negotiate with the Russians, whose precondition for negotiations is that Ukraine defacto submits.

Maybe you should explain to us why submitting to the Russian demand they submit, is not actually submitting?

(Your second name isn't Heller by any chance?)

How else do you see negotiating with Russia working out?
Maybe you just don't understand what you are saying. Which I think is likely.

[heimlaga]

I have tried to research your claim that a promiste was made to not extend Nato eastward.
Michail Sergejewich Gorbachov to whom this alleged promise was made has repeatedly said that no such promise was never made neither directly to him not to anyone who reported to him. Michail Sergejevich was a respectable man who generally stood by his word.
This new version of the notorious Molotoff-Ribbentrop treaty is apparently a product of Putin's propaganda workers. Such an agreement would have cancelled out all democracy in large parts of Europe as Putin&co wiew it as their right to overrule democracy in independent states within their sphere on influence.
Did you know this Sandtown?

[dutchpp]

The ISW Russian offensive campaign assessment, February 7.
https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...ebruary-7-2023

Key Takeaways

• Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu is likely attempting to posture the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) as an effective and involved leadership apparatus as the Russian military prepares for a renewed major offensive in Ukraine.
• Russian military command may be rushing to launch a large-scale offensive operation to conquer Donetsk Oblast in an unrealistic timeframe and likely without sufficient combat power.
• The Russian nationalist information space is continuing to express worry over Russia’s inability to sustain a rapid and multi-pronged decisive offensive operation on a deadline.
• Russian state energy company Gazprom may be creating its own private security force, likely in an effort to normalize state-affiliated paramilitary groups and undermine non-state private military companies (PMCs).
• The Kremlin may be implementing some demands previously voiced by Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin to build rapport with other nationalist figures who advocated for similar policies.
• The Russian State Duma further formalized the institution of social benefit schemes in occupied territories of Ukraine in order to further consolidate administrative control of occupied areas.
• Russian forces conducted limited ground attacks near Svatove and Kreminna.
• Russian forces continued ground attacks around Bakhmut.
• Russian forces did not make confirmed territorial gains on the southern axis.
• Russian officials appear to be investing in railway infrastructure to increase the efficiency of military logistics.
• The Russian MoD is reportedly proposing a bill to allow all military personnel, including conscripts, to voluntarily participate in Russian peacekeeping missions.

[Garret]

So - Sandtown - a question. I presume you won't answer, but I'll give it a shot anyway.

Suppose someone invaded the US & took over a number of states & started shipping people's kids back to the home country without the parent's consent. Would you be saying "Hey - fine, keep those states, but let's talk about stopping there"?

[JayInOz]

A big fire has broken out in a US owned factory near Riga, the capital of Latvia, which makes drones and advanced optics among other things. Cause unknown as yet.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

President Zelensky is in London today. The weather is doing its best for him - it’s a beautiful day. His wife was here last year for the funeral. I hope he gets what he wants.

The RAF doesn’t fly the F16 but one announcement so far is that the RAF will train fighter pilots.

[Tom Hunter]

I've wondered why Typhoon has not been discussed for Ukraine. There are a lot of them around, they are older but still pretty capable and they are scheduled for retirement in the near future. I don't follow aircraft closely enough to know if they could help but I am curious.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I've wondered why Typhoon has not been discussed for Ukraine. There are a lot of them around, they are older but still pretty capable and they are scheduled for retirement in the near future. I don't follow aircraft closely enough to know if they could help but I am curious.

It’s said to be a good enough aircraft; why don’t we send them along!

[Peerie Maa]

Today's address to Parliament

Summary

• Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky is addressing a joint session of the UK Parliament shortly after making a surprise trip to the UK
• "Freedom will win - we know Russia will lose," he says
• He makes a plea for fighter jets from the West, presenting the helmet of one of his most successful pilots with a message reading: "We have freedom, give us wings to protect it"
• He thanks Rishi Sunak for providing tanks but also singles out Boris Johnson, who was PM when the invasion began
• Hundreds of MPs and peers are packed into Westminster Hall to hear him speak - he received a long and rapturous applause as he arrived
• It is Zelensky's first visit to the UK since Russia invaded his country, and his second international trip since the war began
• Rishi Sunak told MPs earlier that his government wanted to see Ukraine achieve a "decisive military victory" this year
• It comes after it was announced that the UK would now begin to train Ukrainian fighter jet pilots and marines

<snip>

• 13:39
  
  We need fighter jets from West - Ukraine leader's plea
  
  Zelensky appeals to the MPs and the world for combat aircraft for Ukraine.
  "Combat aircraft for Ukraine," he says. "Wings for freedom."
  Although Western allies have stepped up supplies of heavy weaponry, long-range missiles and tanks to Ukraine in recent months, they have so far refused to provide modern fighter jets.
  
  Zelensky presents fighter pilot's helmet to Speaker
  
  President Zelensky presents Hoyle, the Commons speaker, with a Ukrainian fighter pilot's helmet.
  
  The pilot it belonged to is "one of the most successful aces, and he's one of our kings", Zelensky says.
  The writing on the helmet reads "we have freedom, give us wings to protect it".
  
  Meeting the King will be 'truly special moment'
  
  Zelensky says his meeting with the King later "will be a truly special moment for me".
  He say he will convey, from all Ukrainians, the words of gratitude for support His Majesty showed to them when he was still the Prince of Wales.
  "In Britain, the King is an air force pilot and in Ukraine today, every air force pilot is a king."

13:40Zelensky says thanks "in advance for powerful English planes"

We're nearing the end of Zelensky's speech now, who says two years ago when he visited the UK Parliament, "I thanked you for delicious English tea".
"I will be leaving Parliament today, thanking you all in advance for powerful English planes," he says.
His comments are met with laughter and loud applause from the hall.
He finishes by saying "God bless the King", referring to King Charles III, and "Slava Ukraini" which translates as "Glory to Ukraine!"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-64566762

[Peerie Maa]

An update:

Questions for Sunak is now: Will the UK supply war planes?



Chris Mason
Political editor

"We have freedom. Give us wings to protect it."
Ukraine wants British fighter planes. That is how it defines support now, beyond the cheers and clapping of parliamentarians.
And so there’ll be an obvious and direct question for the president and prime minister. How many planes do you need?
And, prime minister, will the UK give Ukraine planes?
Boris Johnson has said it should happen.
Rishi Sunak is now saying the UK will train Ukrainian pilots so they can fly what Downing Street calls ‘Nato standard’ fighter planes.
That is a change from what he had been saying - Sunak recently sounded sceptical, saying it would take "months, if not years" to train Ukrainian pilots.
But what will he say now?
Will the UK supply warplanes?

• Posted at 14:1814:18
  
  President Zelensky arrives at Buckingham Palace
  
  President Zelensky has arrived at Buckingham Palace ahead of his meeting with King Charles.
  He continues his visit to the UK after speaking to both Houses of British Parliament.
  
  What did Zelesnky say in his speech?
  
  Here's a recap of the main points Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky made in his address to UK Parliament:
  "Freedom will win... we know Russia will lose," Zelensky told MPs, adding the UK was with his country on a march to "the most important victory of our lifetime"
  He called on the West to provide fighter jets, saying: "Combat aircraft for Ukraine, wings for freedom"
  The wartime leader thanked the UK for its "grit" and said the country, through its support of Ukraine, had not compromised the "ideals of these great islands"
  Singling out former PM Boris Johnson, Zelensky praised him for uniting others when it seemed "absolutely impossible"
  Zelensky presented Commons Speaker Sir Lindsay Hoyle with the helmet of a Ukrainian pilot who he said was one of the country's most successful
  He also urged the UK and the West to continue imposing sanctions "until Russia is deprived of any possibility to finance the war"
  
  Man on a mission: Give us Nato fighter planes
  
  
  
  
  Paul Kirby
  Europe digital editor
  
  
  Volodymyr Zelensky addresses Ukrainians every night of Russia's war, and over the past year he has also become proficient at speaking to parliaments across the world, mostly by video and carefully tailoring his message to his country's needs.
  His early speeches were rallying cries for support, sanctions on Russia or a no-fly zone over his country. Now the messaging is more finely honed. Last week he told visiting EU leaders in Kyiv that joining the union was the next logical step for Ukraine.
  When he appeared in person in the US Congress last December, he handed over a Ukrainian flag from the battle of Bakhmut, still being defended against Russia's invaders today. The message that day was that Ukrainian forces needed artillery and other weaponry to defend Bakhmut but also to protect Ukraine's cities from Russian attacks on power plants.
  The message to UK parliamentarians in today's personal address was equally clear. Instead of a flag, Zelensky had brought a flying ace's signed helmet with the blunt message: "Combat aircraft for Ukraine, wings for freedom."
  Ukraine has only recently broken the international taboo over handing over Western tanks and long-range missiles. And remember it was the UK that first pledged its Challenger 2s. Now Zelensky feels he can break the taboo on advanced Nato fighter jets too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-64566762

[dutchpp]

A press release of the joint investigation team that investigated the shooting down of Malaysian flight 17 in 2014 over Ukraine. There are serious indications that Putin was involved.
The link in Dutch:
https://nos.nl/artikel/2462984-sterk...-die-mh17-trof

The Google translate.
Updated today, 15:13
'Strong indications' green light Putin for missile deployment that hit MH17

Russian President Putin has most likely authorized the use of the weapon that was used to shoot down flight MH17 over Ukraine in 2014. That is the conclusion of the team investigating Russia's involvement in the downing of the Malaysia Airlines aircraft. There are "strong indications".
According to the research team, tapped telephone conversations between Russian government officials show that the decision about military support rested with the president. In June 2014, a request from the Russian separatists was discussed in Moscow. They asked for longer-range anti-aircraft guns.
According to the Joint Investigation Team (JIT), there is concrete information that this request was presented to the president, and that his decision was positive.


Commemoration D-Day

The decision on the heavier anti-aircraft fire was postponed for a week "because there is only one who makes a decision (..), the person who is at a summit in France at the time", the researchers note from the tapped conversations. At that time - on 5 and 6 June 2014 - President Putin was at the commemoration of D-Day in France.
It is unknown whether the request explicitly referred to a Buk system. "The high bar of complete and conclusive evidence is not met," the MH17 investigators therefore state. It is certain that the heavy air defense systems will be delivered a short time later, including the Buk that would later down MH17.
The JIT also played a tapped conversation from 2017 in which Putin himself can be heard. He discusses the situation in the area with a rebel leader. "It shows that Putin was personally involved in the conflict in Ukraine," Andy Kraag said on behalf of the research team.

Great danger

This morning, next of kin were informed about the progress of the MH17 investigation. They met in The Hague, where the research team also held a press conference.
Not only the role of the Kremlin, but also the crew of the Buk missile installation in question has been subjected to further investigation. The Joint Investigation Team identified several possible crew members, but found no hard evidence of their involvement.
The soldiers could not be questioned because Russia is not cooperating. The country continues to maintain that there has never been a Russian Buk in eastern Ukraine. Witnesses would be in great danger if they did talk to the JIT.

Inviolable

"All traces are dead," said Digna van Boetzelaer of the Public Prosecution Service. "The investigation is therefore discontinued." It means that there will be no new charges for the downing of MH17. According to her, it cannot be made clear who knew what within the Russian government.
So while there are strong indications that Putin approved the weapons system, there is no conclusive evidence. In addition, he enjoys immunity as president. "Under Dutch law, heads of state cannot be prosecuted, not even for war crimes," said Van Boetzelaer.
She stressed that the case is not definitively closed. According to the JIT, the investigation can always be reopened if additional information comes in.
The Netherlands is working with Australia, Malaysia, Belgium and Ukraine in the JIT, which is conducting the criminal investigation into the MH17 disaster.

The Malaysia Airlines passenger plane was shot down over eastern Ukraine in July 2014. This was done with a Buk missile, which had been secretly imported from Russia. All 298 people on board were killed, including 196 Dutch people.
Three people responsible were sentenced to life imprisonment in absentia in December. They were involved in the supply and removal of the weapon. A fourth suspect was acquitted.
Several relatives hoped that others would also be prosecuted, because more people must have been involved in the downing of the plane.
The JIT has recently tried to find out. In 2019, the team reported that a senior adviser to President Putin helped deliver the spent missile to separatists in eastern Ukraine.

His cel in Scheveningen prison is ready for him. его камера в тюрьме Шевинга готова для него.
Because there will be a day when he isn't president any more.

[Peerie Maa]

A further update:

18:51
Key takeaways from Sunak and Zelensky's press conference

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak and Ukrainian President Volodomyr Zelensky have just finished speaking at a press conference at a British Army base in Dorset.
It marks the end of Zelensky's hectic surprise visit to the UK - only his second trip away from his country since Russia invaded in February last year.
Here are the latest developments:

• Military aid: Sunak said "nothing was off the table" when it comes to military aid for Ukraine, and fighter jets were "part of the conversation". Zelensky warned that supplies are running out, and without fighter jets or longer-range missiles there is a risk of "stagnation" in his country's fight against Russia

• Equipment: The PM said that his government is accelerating the delivery of military equipment to ensure it reaches Ukraine within weeks - not months or years
• Typhoon jets: Asked if he is prepared to send some of the UK's Typhoon jets to Ukraine, Sunak said they are “very sophisticated pieces of kit” and it can take “three years” to train a pilot to fly one. He added that there’s a “supply chain around the aircraft” but the UK and Ukraine are “having that conversation”

• Training: About 10,000 Ukrainian soldiers have travelled to the UK for military training, and dozens more arrived a few days ago to learn how to operate Challenger 2 tanks. The PM said the Challenger tanks will be on the battlefield in a matter of weeks

Posted at 18:4318:43
That's a wrap on Zelensky's UK visit
It's been a busy day for Zelensky who arrived only this morning, albeit unexpectedly, in London.
After touching down at Stansted Airport, he was greeted by PM Rishi Sunak and taken to Downing Street where the pair held a conversation in private.
He then made a landmark address to MPs at Westminster Hall, before meeting King Charles at Buckingham Palace.
Zelensky's now thought to be heading to Paris where he'll meet French President Macron and German Chancellor Scholz.
We'll bring you a rundown of the key moments from the press conference shortly.

Posted at 18:3518:35
Sunak denies UK reluctant to send Ukraine fighter planes

The press conference has now finished, but here's one of the final questions as we keep you updated.
The Sun's Harry Cole quoted Sunak saying Britain has led on training Ukrainian forces, and providing weapons and tanks.
But why won't the prime minister now send the Typhoon fighter jets that Zelensky needs?
Sunak told Cole he was "totally wrong" to suggest there had been any reticence from the UK. He added Britain had been the first G7 country to provide Ukraine with battle tanks. Now nothing is "off the table", but there are talks with allies about the best way forward in supplying future equipment.
Zelensky said he had heard the PM's "desire to provide fighter jets", but with Typhoons, it does not just depend on the UK.
He didn't realise it took three years to train a fighter pilot, but Ukrainian pilots have already been training for two and a half years.

AnalysisPosted at 18:2618:26
PMs's position has shifted - but can he deliver?

The day started with a commitment from the UK to help train Ukrainain pilots.
But following an impassioned plea by Zelensky for fighter jets themselves, that pledge gradually shifted.
The PM has now ordered the defence secretary to examine ways that the UK can provide Ukraine with fighter jets.
The RAF has a limited number of aircraft it could theoretically provide Ukraine - including about 20 older Typhoon jets.
However, there is a danger that that Britain is writing checks that it will struggle to cash.
The RAF is already facing a backlog in the training of its own fast jet pilots, maintenance and upkeep of older aircraft is also more difficult.
Even the prime minister has admitted that if Britain does supply fast jets, it will be for the longer term not the near future.

Posted at 18:0418:04
Challenger tanks will be on the battlefield in weeks - Sunak

The PM is asked by Sky News about a lag in providing Ukraine with more sophisticated weaponry, asking what is holding the West back.
The PM reiterates that the UK has led in terms of provision for equipment for Ukraine, whether it is armoured vehicles or artillery guns.
He continues, saying: "We are training combat aircraft for the first time. That is something we want to continue to do more of, to make sure Ukrainian armed forces are trained on Nato equipment. Challenger tanks will be on the battlefield in a matter of weeks."
Zelensky says he's grateful to the US for HIMARS, a light multiple rocket launcher, but warns that supplies are "running out" and there'll be "stagnation" in the war if this continues.

Posted at 17:5817:58
Sunak defends UK sanctions on Russian money

The next question comes from Natalia, a journalist with the BBC's Ukrainian service. She starts her comments in Ukrainian, before getting up and receiving a hug from Zelensky, who goes on to joke that he needs better security.
Once he's back at his podium, she directs her question at Sunak, asking him what can happen when London remains a city that is laundering Russian money.
The PM says there are "very immediate needs" to provide air defence for Ukraine. "Rest assured, we are here with you, with your people," he says.
"I used to be the finance minister, and we put in place probably the most extensive and forward leaning sanctions of any country" at the start of the conflict, he continues, saying he believes the UK is leading the way in sanctions.

Posted at 17:5117:51
BreakingNothing off the table, says Sunak, when asked about sending jets

A reporter asks Sunak if he can provide absolute clarity on whether Ukraine will get fighter jets from the UK – and if so, when?
Sunak responds by saying the UK's "been very clear when it comes to the provision of military assistance to Ukraine and nothing is off the table".
He goes on: "When it comes to fighter combat air force, of course they are part of the conversation... that's why we've announced today that we'll train Ukrainian air force on Nato-standard platforms."
Zelensky adds that Ukraine needs a lot of equipment, and that those needs depend on the situation on the battlefield.

Posted at 17:4617:46
Post update

Zelensky continues his address, in Ukrainian, saying via a translator that talks today have been "very fruitful".
He extends his gratitude to Sunak, before thanking the people of Great Britain in showing a "willingness to help" his country.
Now it's time for questions from the media.

Posted at 17:4417:44
Zelensky thanks MPs and King Charles

In response, Zelensky says he and Sunak have been putting the final touches to their negotiations on defence issues.
He says he can't share all the details of what has been discussed today, but he's "deeply grateful" to Sunak for understanding Ukraine's needs and for strengthening the partnership between the two countries.
Zelensky thanks King Charles, whom he met at Buckingham Palace earlier, as well as the MPs who gave Ukraine their support at Westminster Hall.

Posted at 17:4217:42
Post update

In the coming days, Sunak says, it will be a year since the "needless" and "unprovoked" invasion of Ukraine by Russia.
He says this milestone is only convincing the UK to go "further and faster", which he adds the country will do.

Posted at 17:4117:41
We want equipment to get to Ukraine faster - Sunak

The UK "will always be by your side," Sunak tells Zelensky, adding the country is a "staunch and unwavering friend".
Sunak adds that his government is accelerating the delivery of military equipment to ensure it arrives in weeks – not months or years.
As previously announced, Sunak says the UK is expanding its training programme to marines and fighter jet pilots.


Posted at 17:4117:41
Ukranians learning to control Nato-standard weapons

Sunak continues, saying Ukrainian men and women are learning to control Nato-standard weapons, adding: "The dedication, courage and determination is a credit to you and your country."
He says Ukraine's incredible strength and bravery will ultimately defeat tyranny.
"That's why we're training and arming them with the equipment they need to push back Russian forces," the PM says.

Posted at 17:3717:37
Post update
Sunak starts by saying it's a privilege to stand next to Zelensky.
He says 10,000 soldiers have made the journey to the UK for military training, and just days ago dozens more arrived for training to operate the Challenger 2 tanks.
The PM says the Ukrainian troops are "already mastering the driving", which he hopes will make a difference on the battlefield

[Peerie Maa]

^ continued

Posted at 17:3417:34
Press conference begins

President Zelensky and PM Rishi Sunak have started their press conference. Stay with us for live updates on what they say.
You catch tune in by clicking the play button at the top of this page.

Posted at 17:3017:30
Zelensky and Sunak sign declaration of unity

While we wait to hear from President Zelensky and Rishi Sunak, it's been reported that they've signed a declaration of unity.
It's not yet clear what that means exactly.
We're due to hear more from the pair at a press conference shortly.

Posted at 17:2017:20
Lecterns in place for joint press conference

Two lecterns have been set up at the British Army base in Dorset where President Zelensky and PM Rishi Sunak are, suggesting we'll hear from the leaders fairly soon.
The pair will make a joint statement cementing the UK and Ukraine's partnership, Downing Street say.
We'll bring you live updates and analysis from the press conference when it starts, stay tuned.

Posted at 17:1617:16
What support has the UK given Ukraine?
Since Russia invaded Ukraine in February last year, the UK has spent £2.3bn on military assistance, making it the second biggest donor behind the US.
The government says it plans to match this spending again this year.
Financial restrictions have also been imposed on Russians and more than 100,000 Ukrainian refugees have been welcomed to the UK.
Military equipment provided so far includes:

• Several air defence systems, including Starstreak, designed to bring down low-flying aircraft at short range.
• Challenger 2 tanks
• M270 multiple-launch rocket systems with M31A1 precision munitions
• Next-generation light anti-tank weapons, or Nlaw
• Maritime Brimstone missiles
• Armoured vehicles, including Mastiff patrol vehicles
• Heavy lift unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) systems to provide logistical support to isolated force
• Electronic warfare equipment
• AS90 self-propelled artillery guns
• Hundreds of thousands of rounds of 155mm ammunition

Posted at 17:0517:05
Zelensky and the power of PR



Frank Gardner
Security correspondent
President Zelensky is an extraordinary phenomenon, a mould-breaker in international politics. Few were surprised when he was named Time Magazine’s 2022 Person of the Year.
As Ukraine’s charismatic and outspoken president, he has done more than anyone else in his country to rally support for it in the West. He has done this in two ways:

• Firstly, he defied Kremlin expectations and stayed put in Kyiv. When the Russians invaded and the US offered to evacuate him, he famously replied: “The fight is here. I need ammunition, not a ride”
• Secondly, he has made a point of constantly addressing audiences both home and abroad, dressed in his trademark military-style T-shirt, stiffening Ukrainian resolve while pleading for more Nato weaponry

His background was not military, it was in popular TV entertainment, even playing the part of an imaginary president before he won the election and took on the job for real.
Political leaders in the West have been impressed by his bravery – he reportedly has to move location daily to avoid being targeted.
But the longer this war goes on without a decisive Ukrainian victory, the greater the risk that his western backers will eventually ask him to make a compromise deal with Moscow.
Hence the urgency of his visit this week as fresh Russian forces gather on his borders in their hundreds of thousands, waiting for a spring offensive.

Posted at 16:5516:55

Leaders arrive at Dorset army base

On that note, President Zelensky and Rishi Sunak have just arrived by helicopter at Lulworth Camp in Dorset.
The pair will now meet Ukrainian troops being trained by the British Army.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-64566762

[NickW]

On that note, President Zelensky and Rishi Sunak have just arrived by helicopter at Lulworth Camp in Dorset.
The pair will now meet Ukrainian troops being trained by the British Army.

If you are not familiar with Dorset the following might help. Lulworth Camp is the base area for the Lulworth Gunnery Ranges and is approx 4 miles from Bovington Camp which is the UK's main Armour Corps base.



This pdf shows the land around the Ranges https://www.dorsetcoast.com/wp-conte...ng-leaflet.pdf

here's the wiki on Bovington https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovington_Camp

Nick

[johnw]

I have tried to research your claim that a promiste was made to not extend Nato eastward.
Michail Sergejewich Gorbachov to whom this alleged promise was made has repeatedly said that no such promise was never made neither directly to him not to anyone who reported to him. Michail Sergejevich was a respectable man who generally stood by his word.
This new version of the notorious Molotoff-Ribbentrop treaty is apparently a product of Putin's propaganda workers. Such an agreement would have cancelled out all democracy in large parts of Europe as Putin&co wiew it as their right to overrule democracy in independent states within their sphere on influence.
Did you know this Sandtown?

We've already been through that, pages ago. Sandtown is well aware that no such promise was made, because he's been presented with the evidence. He is not arguing in good faith.

[gypsie]

I've wondered why Typhoon has not been discussed for Ukraine. There are a lot of them around, they are older but still pretty capable and they are scheduled for retirement in the near future. I don't follow aircraft closely enough to know if they could help but I am curious.

I believe this is precisely the battle the Tornado was designed for.

[AnalogKid]

Gypsie, you are indeed right, but there's a couple of problems there.

All of the RAF's Tornados have either been scrapped, salvaged for spares (for other operators) or reduced to non-flying museum pieces and airbase gate guardians.

But even if there were British Tornados available to send, would it take consent from Italy and Germany too in order to clear the re-export?

Italy and Germany both have ground attack variants in active service (as does Saudi Arabia, but they're not going to help, are they?).

[johnw]

It seems a Russian right-wing blogger got shot in the back of the head at a Wagner Group checkpoint.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64566582

Also, Korshak's latest:

https://medium.com/@Stefan.Korshak/f...s-6e59905c9f03

[gypsie]

Also, Korshak's latest:

https://medium.com/@Stefan.Korshak/f...s-6e59905c9f03

Bet there's a few officers who wish they had access to a few guided missiles right about now;
Must be frustrating to know they are reserved for 'civilian use only'.

Uhledar — Reports are continuing to trickle in about an absolute pasting taken by Russian Marine Infantry and Arctic Troop units in this sector, ......
The terrain is wide open here and as noted earlier he who holds Uhledar’s tall apartment buildings doesn’t even need drones, he can call accurate artillery fires from a wide choice of roofs.

[sandtown]

I'm not picking on you Sandtown. Are you actually a grown up?
You say, you never said that Ukraine should submit to Russian control - yet you continually do say precisely that by saying they should negotiate with the Russians, whose precondition for negotiations is that Ukraine defacto submits..

All sides have "preconditions", the main thing is to have a cease fire and talk . .

And of course we have extensive sources that show the US has blocked negotiations in the past, and that there was indeed a solemn promise not to expand NATO . .

And now that it was the US that blew up the Nordstreams . . .

https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/...m_medium=email

[sandtown]

Suppose someone invaded the US & took over a number of states & started shipping people's kids back to the home country without the parent's consent.

Suppose China or Russia arranged for a military alliance with Mexico, and moved weapons right up to the border ??

Reflect about the hysteria over that one balloon !!

[L.W. Baxter]

your empathy for russia's predicament is duly noted.

[epoxyboy]

Tough old Ukrainian bird.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/06/e...ntl/index.html

Pete

[dutchpp]

The ISW Russian offensive campaign assessment, February 8.
https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...ebruary-8-2023

Key Takeaways

• Russian forces have regained the initiative in Ukraine and have begun their next major offensive in Luhansk Oblast.
• The commitment of significant elements of at least three major Russian divisions to offensive operations in this sector indicates the Russian offensive has begun, even if Ukrainian forces are so far preventing Russian forces from securing significant gains.
• Donetsk People’s Republic (DNR) People’s Militia command reportedly assumed control over a Russian artillery battalion, likely in support of an effort to strengthen degraded DNR forces ahead of an imminent Russian offensive.
• The reported subordination of Russian mobilized personnel to DNR formations could also suggest that Russian military command may be continuing efforts to integrate ad hoc DNR and Luhansk People‘s Republic (LNR) formations into the Russian Armed Forces, but will likely face significant difficulties.
• Russian officials continue to propose measures to prepare Russia’s military industry for a protracted war in Ukraine while also likely setting further conditions for sanctions evasion.
• Russian forces conducted ground attacks around Bakhmut and continued making tactical advances.
• Russian forces continued offensive actions northwest of Svatove and intensified offensive operations near Kreminna.
• Russian forces conducted limited ground attacks in the Avdiivka-Donetsk City area and western Donetsk Oblast.
• Russian and Ukrainian forces reportedly continue small-scale skirmishes and reconnaissance activity in the Dnipro River delta and on the Kinburn Spit.
• The Wagner Group is reportedly resorting to more coercive tactics in its prison recruitment campaign, possibly in response to the campaign’s declining effectiveness.

[WX]

All sides have "preconditions", the main thing is to have a cease fire and talk . .

And of course we have extensive sources that show the US has blocked negotiations in the past, and that there was indeed a solemn promise not to expand NATO . .

And now that it was the US that blew up the Nordstreams . . .

https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/...m_medium=email

There are only two preconditions to a ceasefire.
1 The Russian version. Ukraine surrenders and relinquishes all claims to sovereignty.
2 The Ukrainian version. All Russian forces to retreat back to the Russian border, and to respect Ukrainian sovereignty.

[heimlaga]

All sides have "preconditions", the main thing is to have a cease fire and talk . .

And of course we have extensive sources that show the US has blocked negotiations in the past, and that there was indeed a solemn promise not to expand NATO . .

And now that it was the US that blew up the Nordstreams . . .


https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/...m_medium=email

What independent sources do you have?
Putinist propaganda sources claim that there was such a solemn promise and that USA blew up the Nordstream pipeline. They also claim that people currently freeze to death in Finland because Russia cut off gas supplies. A little over a year ago the same sources claimed that the 5g network built in Europe was in fact not a phone network at all but an American government scheme to poison Europeans through some sort of transmissions and make us all ill.

Independent sources agree that no such promise was made and that Nordstream was blown up by a foreign state after Russian ships had been seen in the area. If you keep repeating lies despite having found independent sources disproving them you become a liar yourself.

In the short term the Nordstream sabotage benefited Russia. In the long term it benefits Europe.
Why would USA have sabotaged it as they have nothing to gain and plenty to loose from such an act? When there are others who had something to gain.

[dutchpp]

An google translate of an opinion piece in my newspaper (www.nrc.nl) today by Laura Starink.
The piece is a response on a earlier piece by the two gentleman mentioned in the first alinea.
Laura Starink is a former correspondent of NRC Handelsblad in Moscow and co-founder of think tank “Raam op Russia” (window on Russia).


As if the Cold War is still going on
The Russian war against Ukraine is not a proxy war of the West, it is a deliberate escalation of an aggressive former ruler, writes Laura Starink.

The worldview of Paul Aarts and Henk Overbeek is astonishingly simple. In their opinion piece “Sustainable peace only after agreement between Russia and NATO “(4/2) they just fail to write that Russia's war against Ukraine is the fault of the West, namely our aggressive military alliance. In their view, the expansion of NATO and the refusal to include Russia in a new security structure have led to a Western 'proxy war' with Ukraine as the victim. NATO training and arms supplies should help Ukraine defeat Russia without sacrificing a soldier's life. That is why negotiations must take place, with NATO as the war party at the table.

If only life were that simple. Since the end of the Soviet Union, Russia has intervened militarily in Moldova (1991), Georgia (1991-93 and 2008) and Ukraine (2014 and 2022) to make it clear that ex-Soviet republics belong to its sphere of influence. And Belarus has been completely dependent on Moscow since the popular uprising against Lukashenko in 2020.

Russia is not interested in whether the government or people of those independent countries agree to this. Sovereignty is for great powers. But the ideas of a "new" security structure are old wine in old bottles: Russia needs buffer states on its vast borders to defend itself against NATO's imaginary aggression. This is how Putin keeps his regime going.

The war against Ukraine is not a proxy war of the West, which "fights on to the last Ukrainian". It is a deliberate escalation by an aggressive former ruler, which Ukraine cannot cope with without Western arms supplies. We are not using Ukraine, Ukraine is calling for our help.

Not provoked
Putin has been providing military support to the Russian puppet states in the Donbas since 2014. Russian troops are stationed in Moldavian Transnistria against the wishes of President Maia Sandu. In 2008, Russia annexed the Georgian provinces of Abkhazia and South Ossetia by military force.

The invasion that began on February 24 last year is a war of conquest that was not provoked by either the Ukrainians or the West. The aim is to overthrow the democratically elected regime of President Zelensky and make Ukraine subject to Moscow. Putin made this decision practically on his own.

When the Blitzkrieg failed, the Ukrainian army proved a strong opponent, the 'demilitarization' thanks to Western weapons failed, the 'denazification narrative' evaporated and the Russian defeats and losses could no longer be disguised, the Russian population was put on a different track put: Russia has a setback because it fights against fifty Western countries. On January 18, 2023, Putin said in St. Petersburg: "Everything we do, like the special military operation, is to end the war."

Because Putin cannot admit defeat, the bombing continues. That could take a long time.

Ignorance and lying
Aarts and Overbeek must be aware that the Euromajdan uprising (2013/14) was not about NATO membership. At the time, half of the Ukrainians were against it.

Nor has the Ukrainians lacked negotiating readiness. It is a travesty that Russia blames the Ukrainians for the failure of the Minsk peace accords (2014 and 2015). Russia denied for years that it belonged to the warring factions in the Donbas – a proven fact. It demanded autonomous status from Kiev for the Donbas and refused to return control of 400 kilometers of border to Ukraine. To ridicule those ongoing negotiations with one reference to a Merkel statement as Ukrainian sabotage so that the country could better prepare for war, what Aarts and Overbeek are doing is absurd.

I point out that in 2019 President Zelensky was elected with three quarters of the vote because he promised to end the war as soon as possible. But like his predecessor Poroshenko, he too was broken by the unwillingness and mendacity of the Kremlin.

Just before the invasion, Zelensky tried to reach a compromise with the Russians
Zelensky has emerged as a courageous wartime president who is admired by the public at large for his ability to garner global support. The percentage of Ukrainians in favor of NATO membership has grown to more than three-quarters.

Even just before the invasion, Zelensky tried to compromise with the Russians, but Putin brushed aside. Since March, unsuccessful attempts have been made to negotiate a ceasefire. After the discovery of mass graves, Ukrainian interest cooled.

Choice for your own safety
Eastern Europe and Ukraine are conspicuous in Aarts and Overbeek's argument by their absence. It does not occur to them that it was difficult for NATO in 2004 to refuse accession to the Eastern European countries that had been abandoned by the West at the conference in Yalta (1945). They do not consider it relevant that Eastern European countries wanted to join NATO for their own security. They probably find it nonsense that even Finland and Sweden now want to join NATO. The fact that Ukraine has changed from a bilingual Russia-friendly country into a country that wants to sever all ties with Russia escapes them.

The fact that there are political scientists who believe that we should listen to Russia rather than its victims illustrates that they are still living in the Cold War. Thirty years after the fall of the Wall, they continue to believe that smaller states should submit to the imperialism of a nuclear "superpower".

[sandtown]

In the short term the Nordstream sabotage benefited Russia. In the long term it benefits Europe.
Why would USA have sabotaged it as they have nothing to gain and plenty to loose from such an act? When there are others who had something to gain.

Did you read the Sy Hersh article ?? He was roundly denounced in 1968 by the USG for his truthful reporting about Mi Lai.

And your logic makes zero sense - the US openly said the pipe would not open, and opposed the Nord2 even before the war began; and if Russia wanted to shut it down all they had to do was throw a switch.

[Keith Wilson]

if Russia wanted to shut it down all they had to do was throw a switch.

But then it would have been obvious that they did it. Doubt and confusion benefits Russia. (I have no idea who sabotaged the pipeline, FWIW.)

Mr. Hersh has gone completely off the rails in recent years, whatever he may have done 55 years ago. He's now nothing more than a paranoid wacko.

[Osborne Russell]

Not provoked

Putin has been providing military support to the Russian puppet states in the Donbas since 2014. Russian troops are stationed in Moldavian Transnistria against the wishes of President Maia Sandu. In 2008, Russia annexed the Georgian provinces of Abkhazia and South Ossetia by military force.

Russia provoked NATO by illegally seizing Crimea and Abkhazia, thus threatening every nation on the Black Sea, all NATO members except Georgia (coming soon). By the logic of foreign policy "realism" and Russian apologetics, this requires NATO to seize Moscow.

Provoked, puh leeze.

[Peerie Maa]

. . .

This Sy Hersh?

In 2015, Vox's Max Fisher wrote that "Hersh has appeared increasingly to have gone off the rails. His stories, often alleging vast and shadowy conspiracies, have made startling — and often internally inconsistent — accusations, based on little or no proof beyond a handful of anonymous "officials".^[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh

You should consider my tag line and learn from it.

[sandtown]

This Sy Hersh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh .

I have met the guy, and few journalists are as good .. lots of folks dispute the use of chem weapons in Syria.

Seymour Myron "Sy" Hersh (born April 8, 1937) is an American investigative journalist, and political writer.^[6]
Hersh first gained recognition in 1969 for exposing the My Lai Massacre and its cover-up during the Vietnam War, for which he received the 1970 Pulitzer Prize for International Reporting. During the 1970s, Hersh covered the Watergate scandal for The New York Times and revealed the clandestine bombing of Cambodia. In 2004, he reported on the U.S. military's mistreatment of detainees at Abu Ghraib prison. He has also won two National Magazine Awards and five George Polk Awards. In 2004, he received the George Orwell Award.^[7]
Hersh has accused the Obama administration of lying about the events surrounding the death of Osama bin Laden, and disputed the claim that the Assad regime used chemical weapons on civilians in the Syrian Civil War. Both assertions have stirred controversy.

[Landrith]

I have met the guy, and few journalists are as good .. lots of folks dispute the use of chem weapons in Syria.
[/FONT][/COLOR]

Investigative journalism is a thing of the past. Most fringe news exists because the big media companies Hersh used to work for can no longer print anything but the government/corporation line. Thus all the misleading of the public over the Ukraine war and current conditions there by Western governments.