Ukraine

[johnw]

Legend has it that the Challenger’s turret and systems are metric and the hull and systems, including the vital tea making equipment, are BSF.

And Whitworth.

[mizzenman]

If someone sugested my area should be a buffer zone of some kind, I would not like it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_state
Research shows that buffer states are significantly more likely to be conquered and occupied than are nonbuffer states.[2]

[Johan R]

If someone sugested my area should be a buffer zone of some kind, I would not like it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_state
Research shows that buffer states are significantly more likely to be conquered and occupied than are nonbuffer states.[2]

Some "experts" here are not going to like your research.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Western oriented governments want Ukraine to win….sort of….but not so well that Putin and Russia actually feel threatened by a western oriented neighbour on it's borders. Th Donbass is a handy buffer for both sides

Buffer states… (1):

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I don’t think “buffer zones” are useful. There was no buffer zone between East and West Germany, nor was there one between the Crown Colony of Hong Kong and the People’s Republic of China.

Buffer zones are just an excuse for people to make trouble, see the history of the Scottish Borders.

Buffer states … (2)

Both on the page where the troll says that nobody has mentioned the idea.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I thought that Johan's point on the vanishing buffer zones was well taken,

but you all ignored it in your rush to attack him.

I have been PM'ed by several others who you drove away from this thread . . .

why you think that is a good idea is a mystery to me.

Five or six of you seem to have zero interest in an open exchange of views.

As to Johan's point, I disagree in some respects.

The demilitarized zone along the US-Canadian border has worked reasonably well for 200 years, and the Korean DMZ has mostly held - and is quite popular wtth critters.

Faint hope I know, but I would like to see Russian military forces pulled back several hundred miles from the Ukr, Polish, Baltics, Georgia, Finnish borders . . .

NATO would do the same . .

But as Johan suggests, it may be too late for that.

Liar.

[skuthorp]

Oh I agree with Mizzenman, that's the whole point of a buffer state, to give the next in line time to react .

[Chip-skiff]

Following the news about tanks, the German Leopard series and the US Abrams, I learned a few things.

One: the Germans have sold the Leopard tank to quite a few nations and there are a lot of them, with stocks of ammunition, in countries that favor Ukraine.

Two: the basic design of the Leopard tank is rather old and well-proven. The engine is a V-12 diesel, that uses the same fuel as other diesel vehicles.

Three: the US Abrams tank is powered by a turbine. Early versions had such a hot exhaust plume that troops taking shelter behind them got scorched. The present version has a cooler exhaust, but it runs on specialized aviation fuel, with high sulfur content compared to the #2 diesel most often used in heavy vehicles. So Ukraine would have to create a separate supply chain to refuel the Abrams tanks, which consume 2-3 times the gallons per mile of the standard diesel tanks.

https://generalaviationnews.com/2011...s-diesel-fuel/

Evidently, the turbine can be replaced with a conventional diesel engine, but the process would take time.

[John Meachen]

Some "experts" here are not going to like your research.

I tried some research,I invited our troll to disclose his nationality.The deflection,yet again,confirmed what was already obvious.I suggest he tells the troll farm supervisor that he has no credibility on this forum and asks for a different assignment.

[Johan R]

I tried some research,I invited our troll to disclose his nationality.The deflection,yet again,confirmed what was already obvious.I suggest he tells the troll farm supervisor that he has no credibility on this forum and asks for a different assignment.

Maybe you should stick to doing research about Ukraine. Maybe you could help Heimlaga find the pro-putin propagand he keeps talking about but has yet to show. Maybe you could both apply for jobs at Bellingcat and learn how internet analysis is done. It usually starts with gathering information and verifying it before making bold statements. Some one needs to remind Heimlaga that shouting first without any evidence to back up a claim, is not the way to do it. Why you let him carry on making a fool of himself if you are all so friendly, i do not understand. Verbally abusing someone over the internet is not going to get him the confession he wants to hear, and feeding his paranoia is childish to the point of cruelty.

Anyone at any time could have sent me a private message. None of you did. You threw silly names, and insults and accusations first, and expect me to be ok with that and comply. Sorry, through the tears of laughter, this is not how people usually communicate in the world, though there seems to be a lot of it here.

Whatever happened about the "be nice" rule i noticed when i signed up, have you all been here so long you forgot?

NOT about Ukraine.

[John Meachen]

You have no idea what I might be like when I get grumpy.....

[sandtown]

If someone sugested my area should be a buffer zone of some kind, I would not like it.
Research shows that buffer states are significantly more likely to be conquered and occupied than are nonbuffer states.[2]

I wrote about DMZ's, not buffer states. Please try to be accurate.

Although the US-Canada DMZ has held pretty well, there was that time in the 1830s when a bunch of USAeans attacked Pelee Island on the Canadian side. They crossed the ice in winter. The redcoats from Fort Malden gave them a good spanking. (It was not really very funny - lives were lost.)

https://windsorstar.com/opinion/patr...f-pelee-island

[Garret]

I wrote about DMZ's, not buffer states. Please try to be accurate.

Although the US-Canada DMZ has held pretty well, there was that time in the 1830s when a bunch of USAeans attacked Pelee Island on the Canadian side. They crossed the ice in winter. The redcoats from Fort Malden gave them a good spanking. (It was not really very funny - lives were lost.)

https://windsorstar.com/opinion/patr...f-pelee-island

Just where is the US/Canada DMZ? I'm 25 miles from the border & the closest I've seen to one is the 100 ft or so between border stations.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

quite interesting discussion of the M1A2

https://wesodonnell.medium.com/ukrai...s-767fd1458c29

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

The Financial Times is reporting that Lockheed have said that they will be more than happy to re-open their production line to supply new F16s to replace any sent to Ukraine.

The Kingdom of the Netherlands operates 74 F16s

Russia murdered 193 Dutch citizens on Malaysia Airlines flight MH 17 over Ukraine in 2014.

Germany doesn’t operate the F16.

[johnw]

Just where is the US/Canada DMZ? I'm 25 miles from the border & the closest I've seen to one is the 100 ft or so between border stations.

Our border with Canada is, rather famously, the longest unmilitarized border in the world. Therefore, there can be no 'demilitarized' zone between the countries.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I am, through my father’s mother, a descendant of the most successful US General of the War of 1812.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Brown

I think things have been reasonably quiet since 1815, despite the lack of a buffer state.

[sandtown]

Just where is the US/Canada DMZ? I'm 25 miles from the border & the closest I've seen to one is the 100 ft or so between border stations.

Ever hear of the Rush-Bagot Treaty ?? Living in Vermont, you should have.

https://history.state.gov/milestones...829/rush-bagot

Sorry for the thread drift, but there have been many proposals for the demilitarization of Central and Eastern Europe.

[Garret]

Ever hear of the Rush-Bagot Treaty ?? Living in Vermont, you should have.

https://history.state.gov/milestones...829/rush-bagot

Sorry for the thread drift, but there have been many proposals for the demilitarization of Central and Eastern Europe.

Yes, I had. Still can't see a DMZ from my house. Where is it hiding?

[Peerie Maa]

Rush-Bagot Pact, 1817 and Convention of 1818


So two centuries ago.
Perhaps this is what Sandtown is hankering after?

[Osborne Russell]

Western oriented governments want Ukraine to win….sort of….but not so well that Putin and Russia actually feel threatened by a western oriented neighbour on it's borders. Th Donbass is a handy buffer for both sides

Ukraine can be a buffer state only if Ukraine agrees. Forget it.

[sandtown]

Yes, I had. Still can't see a DMZ from my house. Where is it hiding?

In plain sight - military forces are not allowed at the border . . .

How many tanks do you see up there ??

(The evil-ass Drumph wanted to put military at the border, but Trudreau prostested and won)

[Ron Williamson]

I thought that Johan's point on the vanishing buffer zones was well taken,

but you all ignored it in your rush to attack him.

I have been PM'ed by several others who you drove away from this thread . . .

why you think that is a good idea is a mystery to me.

Five or six of you seem to have zero interest in an open exchange of views.

As to Johan's point, I disagree in some respects.

The demilitarized zone along the US-Canadian border has worked reasonably well for 200 years, and the Korean DMZ has mostly held - and is quite popular wtth critters.

Faint hope I know, but I would like to see Russian military forces pulled back several hundred miles from the Ukr, Polish, Baltics, Georgia, Finnish borders . . .

NATO would do the same . .

But as Johan suggests, it may be too late for that.

I wrote about DMZ's, not buffer states. Please try to be accurate.

Although the US-Canada DMZ has held pretty well, there was that time in the 1830s when a bunch of USAeans attacked Pelee Island on the Canadian side. They crossed the ice in winter. The redcoats from Fort Malden gave them a good spanking. (It was not really very funny - lives were lost.)

https://windsorstar.com/opinion/patr...f-pelee-island

DMZ?
Not likely.We've heard the sonic booms from Michigan based fighter planes(Air National Guard?) out for a rip.

Everyone knows that if the US felt like an adventure,we would be overrun in not very many days and if Russia threatened,we would be the battlefield/buffer zone.
R

[sandtown]

You are like a bear

Endless personal attacks . . .

What is wrong with you?? (and not only you)

Don't blame Johan for being off topic - it is on you

[Paul Pless]

[SKIP KILPATRICK]

Endless personal attacks . . .

What is wrong with you?? (and not only you)

Don't blame Johan for being off topic - it is on you

Sandtown,

You remind me of my childhood. I had a cat...I loved that cat....I just couldn't keep the cat out of my sandbox.

She would pop in .... but never left anything worth discovering!

[johnw]

Yes, I had. Still can't see a DMZ from my house. Where is it hiding?

Yeah, and we had the Pig War in my neck of the woods. Still no DMZ.

[sandtown]

Twice on this thread I have pointed out to you that your favorite essay, which you link to often, does not state what you claim it to state.

Others also pointed this out. You ignored it all..

Well, my favorite essay would have to be one that I wrote myself . . .

which one did you have in mind ??

[sandtown]

Yeah, and we had the Pig War in my neck of the woods. Still no DMZ.

The Pig War had only one porcine casualty because a US officer refused an order to engage . . .

rather like that Soviet sub officer who did the same in 1962.

To Vets For Peace they are heroes.

Can we get back to Ukraine now ??

[sandtown]

You didn't write it. It was the one that you frequently cite,.

I would be willing to discuss it, but I have no idea to what you refer.

This thread drift is not on moi.

[L.W. Baxter]

fiona hill

[johnw]

fiona hill

He finally realized she hadn't said what he claimed she said, so he decided she wasn't a credible source. It seems credibility, to Sandy, is determined by the extent to which a source says what he wants to hear.

[sandtown]

Yes, it was the Fiona Hill piece!

Not close to my favorite, and I did get the cite wrong;

but I was correct in saying the evil Boris J of the UK and theUS blew up the negotiations.

Clearly, Boris - typical UK lap dog PM that he was - would NEVER have done that on his own.

Speaking of negotiations . . .

Ukraine War: Those Who Fail to Call for Negotiations, Fail to Understand the Dangerous Predicament that Faces Our Planet!

U.S. Peace Council
January 25, 2023
At no time since the Cuban missile crisis has our world has been so close to disaster. As the war in Ukraine approaches its first anniversary, it is being increasingly transformed by the Biden administration and the “collective west” into a war between NATO and Russia. The danger of turning into a nuclear confrontation is imminent.
The 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis was a wake-up call in the midst of Cold War, warning just how close a nuclear World War III could be. Unlike today, both sides sought accommodation. They understood that a retreat from war was in their mutual interest. The Anti-Ballistic Missile and the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces treaties, now scrapped, were negotiated.
Back then, an international peace movement with a robust US contingent amplified the demand for a peaceful world. Such voices are much diminished now. Unlike in the past, not a single Democrat in Congress spoke out for peace, leaving the ideological terrain for war virtually uncontested. Particularly unfortunate are the voices, including some in the U.S. “left,” who continue to beat the drums of war by calling for the continuation of war until the victory of Ukraine. That would only mean the victory of NATO in an all-out war with Russia.
Negotiated peace agreements are not based so much on trust as on the mutual understanding that the alternative is in neither side’s interest. Arguing as some on the “left” do that “Putin’s Russia cannot be trusted,” disregards the fact that no negotiation between warring parties has ever been based on trust.
The undeniable reality facing us should make us all aware of the urgency for negotiations and a diplomatic solution to this war.
The war in and around Ukraine must end. There should be no dispute about that. All wars end either with negotiations or with the victory of one side or the other. Given that this war is not merely between Russia and Ukraine but is between Russia and a Western-backed Ukraine, the first option — for victory — is impossible. Neither Russia (a major nuclear power) nor the Western powers (many of them being major nuclear powers) will tolerate anything near a defeat.
If a military victory is not possible, then the only way forward is for negotiations. War is not an answer. Escalating this war should not be promoted by those who believe in international cooperation and genuine peace. Those who fail to call for negotiations in the midst of this contentious period — with the war ongoing and its impact intensifying a cost-of-living crisis around the world — fail to understand the dangerous predicament that faces the planet.

***
U.S. Peace Council • P.O. Box 3105, New Haven, CT 06515 • (203) 387-0370 • USPC@USPeaceCouncil.org
• https://uspeacecouncil.org • https://www.facebook.com/USPeaceCouncil/ • @USPeaceCouncil

[skuthorp]

So the thread devolves again to a series of spats, thouroughly diverted by bots and esily distracted others.
Meantime the latest european (proxy) war is ramping up. Most of the potential players are already engaged, apart from boots on the ground. Of course there are 'advisors' and 'trainers', even from Australia, and there'll be a whole lot more as Ukranian crews are trained to a lucky dip of new arms, and those advisors become observers to see how their own pet projects measure up. And if Chinese intelligence isn't thick on the ground as well I'll be very surprised.

Cheers and lots of good fortune to you Heimlaga, I'll be in touch soon.

[Lugs]

If Russia wanted a "buffer zone" it should have been a bit nicer to those in the zone. NATO hasn't encroached on Russia, the new members of NATO have run away from the Russian bear as fast as they could.