Ukraine

[Canoez]

You can't either, or you'd point it out.

I'm at least willing to accept the possibility that somewhere there is a treaty the US hasn't broken. I just can't think of it.

https://www.state.gov/treaties-in-force/

[L.W. Baxter]

treaties in force

eta: too slow

[Canoez]

You ain't gonna see what you don't want to see.

[L.W. Baxter]

the smiley face in this context is the tell of a dishonest correspondent.

zero credibility you have, hr.

[sandtown]

*We need a lil' Ruskie troll emoji.....

Why, because we sound like Gen Milley ?? And so many others ??

Your ugly personal attacks on people who have differing views demonstrates the poverty of your arguments.

[sandtown]

OK, VFP doesn't trust either side. How does VFP propose to achieve peace, without some confidence that the two sides would make commitments and honor them? It could only be done by the certainty of massive force in reprisal for breaches. Who's going to provide that?

Where was that "massive force" when the US blew off the Viet peace deal ??

Or the OAS Charter in attacking Nicaragua, or smashing democracy in Brazil, Chile, and others ???

[StevenBauer]

Where was that "massive force" when the US blew off the Viet peace deal ??

Or the OAS Charter in attacking Nicaragua, or smashing democracy in Brazil, Chile, and others ???

Yeah! Whatabout…..

[L.W. Baxter]

Why, because we sound like Gen Milley ?? And so many others ??

Your ugly personal attacks on people who have differing views demonstrates the poverty of your arguments.

you think you sound like general milley? this might be your most fabulous delusion yet.

oh to be a fly on the wall at the meeting of sandtown and the general. in which sandtown lectures on the u.s. blob and how the west provoked the invasion of ukraine and blocked peace negotiations and….”and…where you going, general?”

[Canoez]

Yeah! Whatabout…..

Whole lotta that around here.

Let's see. This thread is about Ukraine and the continuing invasion and warcrimes that are being committed by Russia. Have I got that right?

[George Jung]

It was. Until *somebody* allowed our trolls to derail it.

Credit, where due.

[sandtown]

This thread is about Ukraine and the continuing invasion and warcrimes that are being committed by Russia. Have I got that right?

No, it was your "side" that brought up Russia's history of treaty compliance . . .

and several of us politely corrected you.

Then you got all hurt.

[birlinn]

Nobody commenting on the attacks on Russian bomber bases?
Russia says Ukraine used Russian-made drones/cruise missiles; Ukraine says they were their own home-grown.

[birlinn]

Sandown- just an idle thought- what % of Vets do Vets for Peace represent?

[Peerie Maa]

Nobody commenting on the attacks on Russian bomber bases?
Russia says Ukraine used Russian-made drones; Ukraine says they were their own home-grown.

This?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63857451

[sandtown]

Also, this is interesting. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/21/w...war-river.html

Ukrainian commandos crossing the river Dnipro to go into Indian Country.

The most interesting thing is this. . . .

No, the most interesting things about that photo are that it contains two fascist/Nazi symbols,

and that the NYT conveniently left that fact out of the article. \

I am a Times subscriber, but I do not trust them very much. Remember Judith Miller !!

Be skeptical my friends.

https://fair.org/home/action-alert-n...ze-in-ukraine/

[Canoez]

No, it was your "side" that brought up Russia's history of treaty compliance . . .

and several of us politely corrected you.

Then you got all hurt.

There's no correcting - and I'm not hurt. (Seems like projection, to me...)

The question is, going back to the Russian Ukrainian Friendship Treaty, why does Russia feel the need to violate its agreements with Ukraine?

Now before you become all hurt, yeah, Ukraine terminated that agreement in 2018 - four years after Russia invaded and seized Ukrainian territory, killing civilians and military personnel.

The aggressor in this whole situation is clear - Russia.

[George.]

So. sandtown, if NATO withdraws from Russia's borders and Russia annexes the rest of Ukraine, should NATO withdraw from the new Russian border with Poland to avoid provocations?

[birlinn]

So. sandtown, if NATO withdraws from Russia's borders and Russia annexes the rest of Ukraine, should NATO withdraw from the new Russian border with Poland to avoid provocations?

And then from Poland's borders after the Russkies march into Poland?

PS: the Russians already have a border with Poland, and four other NATO countries.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Stefan Korshak’s piece for 2nd December :

https://medium.com/@Stefan.Korshak/dec-2-day-282-bakhmut-meatgrinder-uaf-training-luxembourg-speaks-ec4408a1fb29

and 4th December:

https://medium.com/@Stefan.Korshak/d...e-64911f07fcdd

[skuthorp]

I think that post goes beyond the pale as far as this forum is concerned………...

[johnw]

But Sandtown, if Ukraine gets no further assistance, it will lose and be turned into part of Russia.

Then Poland and Romania will border Russia, so withdraw NATO support from them too?

Poland already has a border with Russia (Kaliningrad). Under the Veterans for Peace resolution, Polish troops, being part of NATO, would not be allowed in Poland. It seems they passed a resolution without knowing anything about the situation.

[George Jung]

Maybe all those criticisms/complaints levied by HR and Sandy are... just fluffing the sheets; immaterial, intended only to distract/derail. Wouldn't that be something?

[WX]

No, the most interesting things about that photo are that it contains two fascist/Nazi symbols,

and that the NYT conveniently left that fact out of the article. \

I am a Times subscriber, but I do not trust them very much. Remember Judith Miller !!

Be skeptical my friends.

https://fair.org/home/action-alert-n...ze-in-ukraine/

The reality is the Nazis borrowed the totenkopf from earlier military insignia. So, the question is, so what?

[Nicholas Carey]

The reality is the Nazis borrowed the totenkopf from earlier military insignia. So, the question is, so what?

Here's 6 units from all over the world with a death's head in current use as their badge. I could go on, but 6 is probably enough.

Queen Elizabeth's Own Royal Lancers (17/21 Lancers) wear a death's head as their badge. [Question for the Brits: now that you've got King Charles, does the name of the regiment change to King Charles' Own?] Here's the current commanding officer:



100 Squadron RAF (Slogan is Malay for "Never stir up a hornet's nest")



493rd Fighter Squadron USAF (Grim Reapers)



Varyag Battalion, Donetsk Peoples' Republic (Putin's lickspittle):



101 Squadron, Israeli Air Force



Kuperjanov Infantry Battalion, Estonia (raised 1918, slight hiatus 1940-1992, reactivated 1992):

[C. Ross]

I really don't think you know very much.

How would you know?

I’m sure Vets for Peace start out from the sweetest of intentions. But their public statements and policy prescriptions for Syria and Ukraine are shallow and misinformed, in both cases being (willfully?) ignorant about the malignant roles taken by Russia.

But if it feels good for you to blame America for barrel bombs and chlorine gas in Syria and war crimes in Ukraine, it’s clear I nor anyone else can stop you.

[sandtown]

I think that post goes beyond the pale as far as this forum is concerned………...

What post do you have in mind ?? Gonna cancel me, are ya ??

[sandtown]

Likewise, you should be skeptical of your own links. Be a student on this thread, not just a teacher.

That is good advice and we should all strive to follow it.

I have indeed learned a good deal from other posters here.

[sandtown]

The reality is the Nazis borrowed the totenkopf from earlier military insignia. So, the question is, so what?

Some of us vets are not too wild about waving that symbol about . . .

[sandtown]

But if it feels good for you to blame America for barrel bombs and chlorine gas in Syria and war crimes in Ukraine, it’s clear I nor anyone else can stop you.

So in Syria the US backed the supposed rebels against the regime, but many of them turned out to be Al Qaeda-istas. Our valiant alley the Kurds were fighting ISIS, but were as usual sold out to the Turks. ISIS would still control a huge chunk of Iraq and Syria were it not for the valiant assistance of Iran and the Sunni militias. The Assad regime is awful, but in part represents the Shia Alawites. ISIS vowed to kill them all, and may well have done so were it not for the Kurds.

Meanwhile the ethnic/religious extremists in Israel and Saudi are dancing with glee.

I am no expert on the region, but you don't know jack.

[sandtown]

The reality is the Nazis borrowed the totenkopf from earlier military insignia.

You are wrong. That particular version of the SS-Totenkopfverbände is Nazi through and through.

Are you really trying to deny that Ukr (not to mention Hungary, Poland, and a bit of Italy and Sweden) have a problem with ethnic nationalist extremism ??

If you are, you must be asleep

[dutchpp]

The Russian offensive campaign assessment, December 5.
https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...ent-december-5

Key inflections in ongoing military operations on December 5:

• Russian forces continued to defend their positions along the Svatove-Kreminna line against Ukrainian attacks.[16]

• Russian forces continued to make incremental gains around Bakhmut but have not yet surrounded the city, and conducted offensive operations in the Avdiivka-Donetsk City area. Ukrainian sources claimed that small Russian assault groups of 15-20 personnel are attempting to penetrate Ukrainian lines.[17]

• Russian occupation officials continued the forceful transfer of Ukrainian children from occupied territories in Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts to Russia under the guise that the children require special medical care.[18]

• Russian forces shelled more than 20 settlements on the right (west) bank of the Dnipro River and continued to strike Kherson City.[19]

• Russian senator Andrey Klishas of the ruling United Russia party proposed the Kremlin restrict the ability of Russians who fled the country to avoid mobilization to secure work upon returning to Russia.[20]

• Ukraine’s Main Intelligence Directorate (GUR) reported that the Russian military, in concert with the Russian Internal Ministry, is taking steps to launch an electronic database by February 2023 to document the personal details of all servicemen and restrict their movement even when out of uniform.[21]

[George.]

Wow! Sandtown replies to 5 posts, but still evades my question.

Come on, sandy. Should NATO troops withdraw from all Russian borders to avoid provoking them?

[WX]

You are wrong. That particular version of the SS-Totenkopfverbände is Nazi through and through.

Are you really trying to deny that Ukr (not to mention Hungary, Poland, and a bit of Italy and Sweden) have a problem with ethnic nationalist extremism ??

If you are, you must be asleep

You still haven't answered the big question. How much territory should Ukraine cede to Russia in exchange for a ceasefire?

[J.Madison]

Can we please stop responding to the Russian apologists? If minds have not been expanded after 100 pages of reasoned discussion then there is very low chance of somehow showing them the light with one more post.

This used to be a great collection of the latest news from Ukraine, and has been drowned under a steaming pile. If one wants to discuss the mis-deeds of the US, perhaps one of the countless threads on that topic could be used instead of this one.

Maybe we can restore this thread as a place to find updates and discussion of the Ukrainian defence against the invasion.

I'll help.



Russian bombers have been gathering at several airbases in preperation for another large strike against the civilian infrastructure of their neighbor. Somehow, somebody has managed to strike the air bases far behind the lines. It is probable that the ammunition stock was the primary target and was missed, but at least one bomber was damaged beyond being airworthy.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63857451

Of course the strike did happen on Ukraine anyway, reportedly using 14 instead of the planned 20 aircraft.

Ukraine claims they shot down 60 of the 70 missles fired. A huge success due almost entirely to the weapons systems recently delivered by allies. Civilian lives and infrastructure was saved. The first video of a German Gepard shooting down a kamakaze drone was released.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4dUTzTfikE

[Peerie Maa]

^ Spoil sport.
Some folks enjoy wrestling with pigs whilst p!!$!ng in the wind.