Ukraine

[C. Ross]

They knew that something terrible had happened, but what? Something terrible had happened to lots of cities, some worse than Hiroshima. Was it really a single bomb? Did it really flatten the city? How to tell if all communications are cut off?

Send someone with orders to come back and report. That takes time. Wiki says:



So the confirmation that it was an atomic bomb probably got back to Tokyo on the 8th at best. Give them a couple of days to argue and for it to sink in? No, less than 24 hours, and then field commanders were deciding to drop the next bomb.

That's not a timetable for someone who values Japanese surrender more than dropping the second bomb.

Note also that the Japanese were willing to endure not only Hiroshima, but "one or two more bombs" - so Nagasaki didn't change their calculus. The Soviet invasion and getting to keep the Emperor did.

See my earlier post. Truman’s orders in July 25 was to deliver all bombs. They did not bomb Hiroshima, wait, and decide to bomb Nagasaki. Both were authorized at once.

[sandtown]

actually, this position has been mine and that of many other alleged "pro-war" posters here since the argument started: .

Bull-Pucky, then why is Milley an outcast among the Blobista Warrior Elite ??

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/1...tions-00066777

Tell us all about how much you disagree with them . . .

edit - I read the Politico article above. It is well done . . .

This part stood out for me . .

But Defense Department officials say the Kherson region is an example of the tough fighting that lies ahead. Fighting across the river to try to retake territory on the opposite bank is a difficult military maneuver.
“Why not start talking about [peace talks] before you throw another 100,000 lives into the abyss?” the second U.S. official said.

[WX]

Bull-Pucky, then why is Milley an outcast among the Blobista Warrior Elite ??

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/1...tions-00066777

Tell us all about how much you disagree with them . . .

edit - I read the Politico article above. It is well done . . .

This part stood out for me . .

But Defense Department officials say the Kherson region is an example of the tough fighting that lies ahead. Fighting across the river to try to retake territory on the opposite bank is a difficult military maneuver.
“Why not start talking about [peace talks] before you throw another 100,000 lives into the abyss?” the second U.S. official said.

What do you suggest the conditions for peace, be?

[dutchpp]

The ISW Russian offensive campaign assessment, December 1.
https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...ent-december-1

Key Takeaways

• Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko continued to set informational conditions to resist Russian pressure to enter the war against Ukraine.
• Russian forces continued efforts to defend against Ukrainian counteroffensive operations along the Svatove-Kreminna line.
• Russian forces continued to make incremental gains around Bakhmut and to conduct offensive operations in the Avdiivka-Donetsk City area.
• Russian forces continued to conduct defensive measures and move personnel on the east bank of the Dnipro River in Kherson Oblast.
• Russian military movements in Zaporizhia Oblast may suggest that Russian forces cannot defend critical areas amidst increasing Ukrainian strikes.
• Russian forces are holding reserves in Crimea to support defensive operations in Zaporizhia Oblast and on the east bank of the Dnipro River.
• The Kremlin’s financial strain continues to feed domestic unrest.
• Evidence persists regarding the continuation of partial mobilization in the face of low morale and high desertion rates amongst Russian troops.
• Wagner Group financier Yevgeniy Prigozhin continued attempts to bolster the Wagner Group’s reputation.
• Russian occupation officials continued efforts to integrate occupied territories into the Russian financial and legal spheres.
• Russian forces continued to exploit Ukrainian civilians and civilian infrastructure in support of Russia’s war effort in Ukraine.

[L.W. Baxter]

Bull-Pucky, then why is Milley an outcast among the Blobista Warrior Elite ??

milley is chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. his statement i quoted above represents the official position of the commander in chief.

his further comments regarding prospects for ukranian victory and the advisability of negotiations amount to neither a directive, nor a change in biden administration philosophy.

your politico article is an op-ed. not news.

[Paul Pless]

you sure are up early farmer lee

[L.W. Baxter]

i do what i can to help.

[birlinn]

Not much hope of a compromise from Putin:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63832151

[George.]

Russia says the West's refusal to recognise "new territories" seized from Ukraine makes peace talks harder, after President Joe Biden indicated he would be ready to meet Vladimir Putin.

BBC.

Tell us again, what are Ukraine and the West supposed to do to get peace talks going? Should they give Putin "new territories" that he doesn't even fully occupy as a precondition?

[Canoez]

BBC.

Tell us again, what are Ukraine and the West supposed to do to get peace talks going? Should they give Putin "new territories" that he doesn't even fully occupy as a precondition?

Sorta falls into the "well, duh" slot. Why would you negotiate with a terrorist and a thief? It's a little like me trying to negotiate with your bank account.

[sandtown]

Why would you negotiate with a terrorist and a thief?.

Are you talking about Vlad or Dubya Bush ??

[sandtown]

your politico article is an op-ed. not news.

How can one write a news article about something that has not yet happened ?? Articles that do that HAVE TO BE OPINION, or reporting of opinion.

On this thread, there is almost nothing but opinion.

Point not well taken.

Y'all are quite inconsistent in going after everyone who calls for negotiations, while giving Milley a pass.

[Canoez]

Are you talking about Vlad or Dubya Bush ??

What's the thread topic again? You seem to have forgotten.

[L.W. Baxter]

How can one write a news article about something that has not yet happened ?? Articles that do that HAVE TO BE OPINION, or reporting of opinion.

On this thread, there is almost nothing but opinion.

Point not well taken.

Y'all are quite inconsistent in going after everyone who calls for negotiations, while giving Milley a pass.

what has “not yet happened”? milley said what he said, and according to politico people are “scrambling to reassure” ukraine, etc..

also according to politico “the biden administration has to” blah blah blah.

your need to narrate everyone else’s position has you doing contortions. the politico piece you say is “well written”, when the author obviously represents a hawkish position on the war. the very position you want me to represent, which i don’t.

as for milley, he didn’t “call for” negotiations. the salient point he makes is that it is not our call. it’s ukraine’s call, and always has been.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

One problem with hoping that the Russian people rise up and overthrow Putin is that Russians are not given to rising up and overthrowing their ruler.

They have managed it just once, despite severe provocation on other occasions.

Even the English have done better - we’ve done it twice. Our American cousins have done it once.

[WI-Tom]

One problem with hoping that the Russian people rise up and overthrow Putin is that Russians are not given to rising up and overthrowing their ruler.

They have managed it just once, despite severe provocation on other occasions.

Even the English have done better - we’ve done it twice. Our American cousins have done it once.

Well, "we" tried again last January. "We" ought to get some credit for the attempt, at least.

Tom

[Canoeyawl]

Wait, this General Milley?
The general who tramped across Pennsylvania ave to help tfg hold up a bible?
The general who threatened by his action to use US military against the black lives matter protests?


86D8F0DB-4AF7-4AC7-8619-818C892E0068.jpg

[Osborne Russell]

Perhaps he was under orders.

[sandtown]

Wait, this General Milley?
The general who tramped across Pennsylvania ave to help tfg hold up a bible?
The general who threatened by his action to use US military against the black lives matter protests?

He apologized for the "tramp", as well he should have.

He also refused the Drumph's appeal to involve the military in the auto-golpe (though yeah, he should have loudly blown the whistle).

So typical of your side to launch personal attacks against those with whom you disagree.

You are not close to being capable of dealing with his arguments.

[Canoeyawl]

A general hopefully would be smart enough not to have to apologize for anything

So typical of your side to launch personal attacks against those with whom you disagree.

You are not close to being capable of dealing with his arguments.

Feeling a little insecure this morning, perhaps you have picked the wrong side?

[sandtown]

My normal civility starts to wear thin when your side launches personal attacks . .

though I must admit that it is not as bad as 2003 when we were threatened with violence . .

not as bad as 2003 yet, I should say.

[sandtown]

Speaking of The Bomb, Hiroshima, Russia and more . . . .

here is some unknown, untaught and politically incorrect history.

https://covertactionmagazine.com/202...eid=719bc883fd

[Nicholas Carey]

Byelorussian volunteer heavy weapons team driving Ma Deuce for Ukraine.

https://youtu.be/Ji-FterkEkI

[Nicholas Carey]

Also, this is interesting. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/21/w...war-river.html

Ukrainian commandos crossing the river Dnipro to go into Indian Country.

The most interesting thing is this. Here, the commando is praying before heading across the river. She's code-named "Vita". She and her husband are Russian and fighting for Ukraine. Vita, according to the New York Times has "an almost mythical renown for surviving close combat with Russian troops."

But that tattoo on her hand -- that looks to be a pre-christian Latvian symbol, though I'd have to check with my aunts as to its meaning.

I am interested in her story.

[dutchpp]

The ISW Russian offensive campaign assessment, December 2.
https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...ent-december-2

Key Takeaways

• Russia is attempting to capitalize on the Western desire for negotiations to create a dynamic in which Western officials feel obliged to make preemptive concessions to lure Russia to the table.
• Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov reiterated as the basis for negotiations precisely the same demands that the Russian Foreign Ministry had made before the February 24 invasion, and Kremlin Spokesperson Dmitrii Peskov added the further demand that the West recognize Russia’s annexation of Ukrainian territory.
• Russian forces still pose a threat to Ukrainian energy infrastructure despite the success of Ukrainian air defenses.
• Additional Western air defense systems are prompting the Russian pro-war community to question the Russian air campaign against Ukrainian infrastructure.
• Russian officials are setting conditions to negotiate the demilitarization of the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant (ZNPP), an agreement upon which Russia would likely renege and that would not eliminate or diminish the ongoing threat to the ZNPP.
• Ukrainian forces made localized breakthroughs southwest and northwest of Kreminna.
• Russian forces continued to make minimal advances in the Bakhmut area and conduct offensive operations in the Avdiivka–Donetsk City area.
• Russian forces may be struggling to properly allocate and deploy forces in rear areas in southern Ukraine due to Ukrainian strikes.
• Poor logistics, unruly mobilized personnel, and domestic protests continue to prevent the Kremlin from achieving the goals of partial mobilization.
• Russian President Vladimir Putin continues to attempt to mask military development projects in occupied territories for no obvious reason.

[George.]

Why would a commando with a tattoo let her picture be taken, unmasked, right before going behind the lines?

[George.]

• Russia is attempting to capitalize on the Western desire for negotiations to create a dynamic in which Western officials feel obliged to make preemptive concessions to lure Russia to the table.
• Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov reiterated as the basis for negotiations precisely the same demands that the Russian Foreign Ministry had made before the February 24 invasion, and Kremlin Spokesperson Dmitrii Peskov added the further demand that the West recognize Russia’s annexation of Ukrainian territory.

Still waiting for Sandtown to explain how Ukraine and the West are supposed to start negotiations given those conditions.

[WX]

Still waiting for Sandtown to explain how Ukraine and the West are supposed to start negotiations given those conditions.

I've asked him the same question...no answer.

[Vadim 68]

Why would a commando with a tattoo let her picture be taken, unmasked, right before going behind the lines?

Wrong question.

Why is the NYT PUBLISHING A PHOTO of a commando with a tattoo and her face uncovered, and why would anyone post it to social or other media given the paranoia of Russian trolls?

How will people feel if the next time you see that hand is connected to a charred corpse?

[AdB]

Why would a commando with a tattoo let her picture be taken, unmasked, right before going behind the lines?

Because Ukraine needs heroes as much as needs victories? Besides, it's a bit late to be secretive about her identity, every Russian sniper in or around Ukraine probably has her picture on his nightstand by now.

[StevenBauer]

Swedish companies welding up field stoves to send to Ukraine:

https://www-svt-se.translate.goog/ny..._x_tr_pto=wapp

[sandtown]

Still waiting for Sandtown to explain how Ukraine and the West are supposed to start negotiations given those conditions.

There are many possibilities - you lack imagination.

And I do not owe you any sort of explanation.

Why don't you ask Gen Milley ??

[ERGR]

It seems like things once again are starting to happen in Ukraine. It's been rather static for a while, with daily Russian losses of 500 - 700 KIA, mostly due to suicidal attacks towards Bakhmut and Ukrain artillery against troop concentrations but not much territory changing hands.
It's now rather cold at the Luhansk front and ground frost is setting in. At the same time the Ukrainians have taken control over the highway between Swatove and Kreminna and suburbs to Kreminna. This indicates a minor breakthrough in the area, that could develop to a major breakthrough now that the mud hardens.
Ukraine is working hard to set the conditions for meaningful peace negotiations. The Russians first need to be forced out of Ukraine as defined by the pre 2014 borders.
/Erik

[johnw]

It seems like things once again are starting to happen in Ukraine. It's been rather static for a while, with daily Russian losses of 500 - 700 KIA, mostly due to suicidal attacks towards Bakhmut and Ukrain artillery against troop concentrations but not much territory changing hands.
It's now rather cold at the Luhansk front and ground frost is setting in. At the same time the Ukrainians have taken control over the highway between Swatove and Kreminna and suburbs to Kreminna. This indicates a minor breakthrough in the area, that could develop to a major breakthrough now that the mud hardens.
Ukraine is working hard to set the conditions for meaningful peace negotiations. The Russians first need to be forced out of Ukraine as defined by the pre 2014 borders.
/Erik

Saw some satellite photos the other day that seemed to show that the Russians have mostly dug in to protect strategic roads. Waiting until the ground freezes would be the obvious response, allowing UK forces to bypass and cut off such defensive positions.


eEdited to add:

Here's the story and the images:

https://www.businessinsider.com/sate...kraine-2022-12

[Hallam]

There is a story doing the rounds in Oz media from posts on a Telegram channel that Putin fell down some stairs and soiled himself due to cancer he is suffering from. Newsweek mentions it as well:
( has this been mentioned here? )

Did Putin Fall Down the Stairs and Soil Himself? What We Know