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Thread: Ukraine

  1. #7246
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Huh?

    Nitpick?

    Japan were bombed into capitulation. Whatever other niche theories are out there, it is an accepted historical truth. Sure there was more than one thing happening at the time, it was a world war, and the bombs may well have been the final (very big) straw - but they were, beyond doubt, material in the decision.

    The Chechen resistance faded away after Grozny, likewise the Syrian after Aleppo. They were 'bombed' by artillery. Were sieges the 'bombing citizens' of the mediaeval world? The statement that bombing or otherwise killing and making life unbearable for citizens does not bring victory, is not true. Infact, I would guess that in the sweep of history, where a citizenry has been killed/bombed/starved and yet ultimately prevailed is possibly the exception. That is not a nitpick.

    To say that when attacking citizens has worked but doesn't count because of the specifics of the means used, is nitpicking. Carving out exceptions in order to not shatter your beliefs is called cognitive dissonance.
    Yes still nitpicking. Or rather shifting the goal posts.
    Now stop digging.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  2. #7247
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  3. #7248
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    .
    Then read and think about my tag line.
    My conclusion is it is a public information warning, considering some of the patently false stuff you have posted, in a perhaps ironic British humour kind of way? It is probably lost on some people.

  4. #7249
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    ... patently false stuff ...
    That's what you get for interacting with trolls. Once you've shredded all their arguments, they're like "Yeah, but we all know you're a liar anyway so whatever. My arguments still stand." and walk away looking for a new victim. It's all such a waste of perfectly good electrons.
    Last edited by AdB; 11-30-2022 at 08:18 AM.

  5. #7250
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    My conclusion is it is a public information warning, considering some of the patently false stuff you have posted, in a perhaps ironic British humour kind of way? It is probably lost on some people.
    Patently falls? Quote them please. I need a laugh.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  6. #7251
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Running for your life can be a protest, I suppose, in retrospect. But protesting is not what they are doing.

    .
    Russian deserters in Georgia | DW Documentary - YouTube

  7. #7252
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Quote them please. I need a laugh.
    I guess i should respond as you do in the same circumstance, and even use your own words:

    " what did your last slave die off? Do your own homework! "

    You can laugh at that if you like, I usually do.

  8. #7253
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Diana Johnstone saw it all coming eight years back . . .

    If this does not lead you to ask some serious questions, then you are likely situated somewhere beyond the event horizon.

    https://peaceandplanetnews.org/ukraine-iron-curtain/

    what a strange way for nato to go about provoking russia. by denying ukraine's application to nato.

    what a strange way for europe to erect an iron curtain between themselves and russia. by making themselves dependent on russian gas.

    preposterous stuff, sandtown.

  9. #7254
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    Please The West failed Russia in bringing her out of the void, and failed Ukraine in protecting her from Russia. Now the piper is due his pay.
    Well, thanks for giving it a read anyway.

  10. #7255
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    what a strange way for nato to go about provoking russia. by denying ukraine's application to nato.
    Its been denied as Ukraine was not seen as "democratic" enough, as you are probably aware.

    This from yesterday,

    "NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg in a Tuesday press briefing issued an ultra-provocative statement telling Ukraine that "NATO's door is open". He pledged that one day the eastern European country which has for nine months been under Russian invasion will become a NATO member."

    Seems some "red lines" are meaningless to some people.

  11. #7256
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    Its been denied as Ukraine was not seen as "democratic" enough, as you are probably aware.

    This from yesterday,

    "[FONT="]NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg in a Tuesday press briefing issued an ultra-provocative statement telling Ukraine that [/FONT]"NATO's door is open"[FONT="]. [/FONT]He pledged that one day the eastern European country which has for nine months been under Russian invasion will become a NATO member."

    Seems some "red lines" are meaningless to some people.
    well, if the secretary general of nato had said such a thing in so many words a year ago, your point would be arguable, at least.

    but after an actual invasion of ukraine by an actual russian army, "provocation" is kind of moot. to my understanding of the arrow of time, something said now cannot be taken as provocation for something done nine months ago.

    the secretary general of nato is reacting, in other words, not provoking. and that is analogous to the behavior of the west in general with regards to this conflict; reactive, not causal.

    putin is bringing nato to his doorstep. them's the breaks.

  12. #7257
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    putin is bringing nato to his doorstep. them's the breaks.
    Some people here evidently are too obtuse to get it.
    Gerard>
    Albuquerque, NM

    Next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level. Be patriotic, save the country.

  13. #7258
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    I guess i should respond as you do in the same circumstance, and even use your own words:

    " what did your last slave die off? Do your own homework! "

    You can laugh at that if you like, I usually do.
    So you throw out accusations and then can't back them up. Why am I not surprised?

    I'll stop wrestling the pig now.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  14. #7259
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    well, if the secretary general of nato had said such a thing in so many words a year ago, your point would be arguable, at least.
    You mean like this?

    "Rasmussen: Yeah, but it would also be a clear signal that NATO's door remains open. There is hope.… You can become members of NATO, if you so wish. And that's actually what we decided back in 2008. At the NATO summit, we decided that Ukraine and Georgia will become members of NATO…

    Rasmussen: What we did back in 2008 was to guarantee that Ukraine and Georgia will become members of NATO…. And then we established the NATO-Ukraine Commission and the NATO-Georgia Commission.


    but after an actual invasion of ukraine by an actual russian army, "provocation" is kind of moot.
    t

    The rest of your post is moot, given the above. Im sure you remember Anders Fogh Rasumussen, NATO sectary general 2009-14.

  15. #7260
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    NATO is a mutual defence treaty, not some sort of independent political entity. .
    Very little "mutural" going on there . . . NATO does what the hyper-power tells it to do.

    The rest of NATO was nuts to follow the US into Afghanistan, but they did it.

  16. #7261
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    You mean like this?

    "Rasmussen: Yeah, but it would also be a clear signal that NATO's door remains open. There is hope.… You can become members of NATO, if you so wish. And that's actually what we decided back in 2008. At the NATO summit, we decided that Ukraine and Georgia will become members of NATO…

    Rasmussen: What we did back in 2008 was to guarantee that Ukraine and Georgia will become members of NATO…. And then we established the NATO-Ukraine Commission and the NATO-Georgia Commission.


    t

    The rest of your post is moot, given the above. Im sure you remember Anders Fogh Rasumussen, NATO sectary general 2009-14.
    what is the date of those rasmussen quotes? when did he say these things?

    why not go back to 2008 and 2014 and quote something public from the time?

  17. #7262
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    what is the date of those rasmussen quotes? when did he say these things?
    From an interview with Radio Free Europe in March this year.

    why not go back to 2008 and 2014 and quote something public from the time?[
    They are from that time. Rasmussen is quoting what he said at the time, in 2008. He was well aware of Putins position, understood the risk of conflict, and pushed for it anyway.

  18. #7263
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    so, after the fact of the invasion.

    why settle for him quoting himself. give us the original.

    there must be minutes for these meetings in which “we agreed…”

  19. #7264
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    so, after the fact of the invasion.

    why settle for him quoting himself. give us the original.

    there must be minutes for these meetings in which “we agreed…”
    This stuff was common knowledge to many back then, seems you was unaware as you are now, not really surprising given the complete lack or desire to knowledge by most Americans of anything happening outside their own borders.. Im sure there are online archive material, if you are really interested, you will dig it out yourself. Pretty sure Google could help you out if you can spare a minute to look. I would not want to be accused of "spoon feeding" you propaganda......

    Does not excuse what has happened, just to repeat.

  20. #7265
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    As an aside, China and Russia fly the friendly skies?: https://www.businessinsider.com/russ...z7gmrL0JP82tng

    MOSCOW (AP) — Russian and Chinese strategic bombers on Wednesday flew a joint patrol over the western Pacific in a show of increasingly close defense ties between the two countries.The Russian Defense Ministry said that the Tu-95 bombers of the Russian air force and the Chinese H-6K bombers flew over the Sea of Japan and the East China Sea during an eight-hour mission.
    As part of the drills, the Russian bombers for the first time landed in China and the Chinese bombers flew to an air base in Russia, the ministry said in a statement. It noted that the joint patrols weren't directed against any other country.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  21. #7266
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    This stuff was common knowledge to many back then, seems you was unaware as you are now, not really surprising given the complete lack or desire to knowledge by most Americans of anything happening outside their own borders.. Im sure there are online archive material, if you are really interested, you will dig it out yourself. Pretty sure Google could help you out if you can spare a minute to look. I would not want to be accused of "spoon feeding" you propaganda......

    Does not excuse what has happened, just to repeat.
    common knowledge? i don't doubt that there were people spreading this "knowledge" then, as there are now.

    i'm talking about a primary source. not an op-ed of bald assertions, insinuations of backroom negotiations, etc..

    if you provide me with an actual quote, pre-invasion, from an active nato leader, explicitly saying that nato leadership was in agreement that ukraine would be a member in the future, i will conceed that such was unwise, and provocative.

    if there is a written agreement from a nato meeting before the invasion in which leadership codified their position that ukraine would be a member in the future, send me a copy and i will eat it.

  22. #7267
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Damn, LW; throwin' the gauntlet!
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  23. #7268
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Damn, LW; throwin' the gauntlet!
    Urinating into a gale more like. Vadim 68 doers not provide sources to back up his claims.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  24. #7269
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Other than offering a fun target to poke, I don't believe any here take Vad or Sandy seriously.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  25. #7270
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    .

    if you provide me with an actual quote, pre-invasion, from an active nato leader, explicitly saying that nato leadership was in agreement that ukraine would be a member in the future, i will conceed that such was unwise, and provocative..
    Do you consider Bush an "active nato leader" back in the day?

    Bush: Strong Support for Ukraine in NATO - YouTube

    I wouldnt want you to eat it......reading it would suffice......


    NATO - Official text: Joint Statement - Meeting of the NATO-Ukraine Commission at the level of Heads of State and Government , 04-Apr.-2008

  26. #7271
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    How can you even have a sensible discussion with someone who would justify a country invading its neighbor?
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  27. #7272
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Damn, LW; throwin' the gauntlet!
    this is their chance to dunk on me.

    i am reasonably well informed, but i don't know it all.

    my impression, though, is the opposite of the narrative being peddled by vadim, sandtown, hr.

    putin invaded because ukraine was held at arm's length by nato. when he took crimea, and response from europe was to increase their energy dependance, that must have felt like an encouraging sign.

    so, if nato provoked this invasion, perhaps we can put it down to excessive ambivalence about ukraine.

    my reading does indicate that nato leaders, in response to the invasion, are firmly backing ukraine membership now.

    i would add that ukraine's stiff resistance has made this position tenable. had russia rolled right into kyiv as planned the landscape would be very different. i don't believe for a minute that nato was going to start a war of liberation for ukraine.

  28. #7273
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    Do you consider Bush an "active nato leader" back in the day?

    Bush: Strong Support for Ukraine in NATO - YouTube

    I wouldnt want you to eat it......reading it would suffice......


    NATO - Official text: Joint Statement - Meeting of the NATO-Ukraine Commission at the level of Heads of State and Government , 04-Apr.-2008
    that joint statement does read like membership was considered a foregone conclusion. maybe i can print it out on something edible. rice paper, or a thin slice of turkey.

    interesting that this statement is from 2008, and crimea was taken in 2014. all that friendly talk didn't amount to much.

  29. #7274
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Of course they weren't, Ukraine was a buffer state for NATO as well. But Putin stuffed that up all by himself.

  30. #7275
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    TFG seemingly was very encouraging to Vlad, as well. I expect he didn't anticipate any resistance, from Ukraine or NATO, based on that encouragement.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  31. #7276
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Of course they weren't, Ukraine was a buffer state for NATO as well. But Putin stuffed that up all by himself.
    how long was nato going to dangle the prospect of membership? how long will they continue to dangle it even now?

  32. #7277
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    that joint statement does read like membership was considered a foregone conclusion. maybe i can print it out on something edible. rice paper, or a thin slice of turkey.

    interesting that this statement is from 2008, and crimea was taken in 2014. all that friendly talk didn't amount to much.
    Im sure you would rather chew the cud here than read this lot:

    NATO - Search

    There is over 1000 entries in the search for "Ukraine+2008"......you can inform yourself if you choose, now you have the "official" resource.

    As for foregone conclusion.....

    By bne IntelliNews November 30, 2022

    Nato members reaffirmed the organisation's commitment to the 2008 promise to eventually allow Ukraine to join the military alliance...
    Russia has long complained about a commitment made in Bucharest in 2008 that Ukraine will be welcome in the military alliance, without giving any timeline or conditions for its accession.


  33. #7278
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    how long was nato going to dangle the prospect of membership? how long will they continue to dangle it even now?
    Until internal reforms were to NATO members standards.

    Its no surprise that Ukraine was/is still waiting, at least to those with actual knowledge of the country. If the installed powers stopped jailing opposition members and gave back freedom to the press, among other things, they may have become NATO members years ago.

  34. #7279
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    send me a copy and i will eat it
    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Damn, LW; throwin' the gauntlet!
    Should be a piece of cake compared to fifty eggs

  35. #7280
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    Until internal reforms were to NATO members standards. .
    What are these "standards" of which you speak ??

    Why doesn't NATO (and the EU) bounce Hungary and Poland and Turkey while they are about it ??

    Correction - Turkey is not in the EU
    Last edited by sandtown; 11-30-2022 at 03:45 PM.

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