Ukraine

[Vadim 68]

Quote them please. I need a laugh.

I guess i should respond as you do in the same circumstance, and even use your own words:

" what did your last slave die off? Do your own homework! "

You can laugh at that if you like, I usually do.

[L.W. Baxter]

Diana Johnstone saw it all coming eight years back . . .

If this does not lead you to ask some serious questions, then you are likely situated somewhere beyond the event horizon.

https://peaceandplanetnews.org/ukraine-iron-curtain/

what a strange way for nato to go about provoking russia. by denying ukraine's application to nato.

what a strange way for europe to erect an iron curtain between themselves and russia. by making themselves dependent on russian gas.

preposterous stuff, sandtown.

[sandtown]

Please The West failed Russia in bringing her out of the void, and failed Ukraine in protecting her from Russia. Now the piper is due his pay.

Well, thanks for giving it a read anyway.

[Vadim 68]

what a strange way for nato to go about provoking russia. by denying ukraine's application to nato.

Its been denied as Ukraine was not seen as "democratic" enough, as you are probably aware.

This from yesterday,

"NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg in a Tuesday press briefing issued an ultra-provocative statement telling Ukraine that "NATO's door is open". He pledged that one day the eastern European country which has for nine months been under Russian invasion will become a NATO member."

Seems some "red lines" are meaningless to some people.

[L.W. Baxter]

Its been denied as Ukraine was not seen as "democratic" enough, as you are probably aware.

This from yesterday,

"[FONT="]NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg in a Tuesday press briefing issued an ultra-provocative statement telling Ukraine that [/FONT]"NATO's door is open"[FONT="]. [/FONT]He pledged that one day the eastern European country which has for nine months been under Russian invasion will become a NATO member."

Seems some "red lines" are meaningless to some people.

well, if the secretary general of nato had said such a thing in so many words a year ago, your point would be arguable, at least.

but after an actual invasion of ukraine by an actual russian army, "provocation" is kind of moot. to my understanding of the arrow of time, something said now cannot be taken as provocation for something done nine months ago.

the secretary general of nato is reacting, in other words, not provoking. and that is analogous to the behavior of the west in general with regards to this conflict; reactive, not causal.

putin is bringing nato to his doorstep. them's the breaks.

[Gerarddm]

putin is bringing nato to his doorstep. them's the breaks.

Some people here evidently are too obtuse to get it.

[Peerie Maa]

I guess i should respond as you do in the same circumstance, and even use your own words:

" what did your last slave die off? Do your own homework! "

You can laugh at that if you like, I usually do.

So you throw out accusations and then can't back them up. Why am I not surprised?

I'll stop wrestling the pig now.

[Vadim 68]

well, if the secretary general of nato had said such a thing in so many words a year ago, your point would be arguable, at least.

You mean like this?

"Rasmussen: Yeah, but it would also be a clear signal that NATO's door remains open. There is hope.… You can become members of NATO, if you so wish. And that's actually what we decided back in 2008. At the NATO summit, we decided that Ukraine and Georgia will become members of NATO…

Rasmussen: What we did back in 2008 was to guarantee that Ukraine and Georgia will become members of NATO…. And then we established the NATO-Ukraine Commission and the NATO-Georgia Commission.

but after an actual invasion of ukraine by an actual russian army, "provocation" is kind of moot.

t

The rest of your post is moot, given the above. Im sure you remember Anders Fogh Rasumussen, NATO sectary general 2009-14.

[sandtown]

NATO is a mutual defence treaty, not some sort of independent political entity. .

Very little "mutural" going on there . . . NATO does what the hyper-power tells it to do.

The rest of NATO was nuts to follow the US into Afghanistan, but they did it.

[L.W. Baxter]

You mean like this?

"Rasmussen: Yeah, but it would also be a clear signal that NATO's door remains open. There is hope.… You can become members of NATO, if you so wish. And that's actually what we decided back in 2008. At the NATO summit, we decided that Ukraine and Georgia will become members of NATO…

Rasmussen: What we did back in 2008 was to guarantee that Ukraine and Georgia will become members of NATO…. And then we established the NATO-Ukraine Commission and the NATO-Georgia Commission.


t

The rest of your post is moot, given the above. Im sure you remember Anders Fogh Rasumussen, NATO sectary general 2009-14.

what is the date of those rasmussen quotes? when did he say these things?

why not go back to 2008 and 2014 and quote something public from the time?

[Vadim 68]

what is the date of those rasmussen quotes? when did he say these things?

From an interview with Radio Free Europe in March this year.

why not go back to 2008 and 2014 and quote something public from the time?[

They are from that time. Rasmussen is quoting what he said at the time, in 2008. He was well aware of Putins position, understood the risk of conflict, and pushed for it anyway.

[L.W. Baxter]

so, after the fact of the invasion.

why settle for him quoting himself. give us the original.

there must be minutes for these meetings in which “we agreed…”

[Vadim 68]

so, after the fact of the invasion.

why settle for him quoting himself. give us the original.

there must be minutes for these meetings in which “we agreed…”

This stuff was common knowledge to many back then, seems you was unaware as you are now, not really surprising given the complete lack or desire to knowledge by most Americans of anything happening outside their own borders.. Im sure there are online archive material, if you are really interested, you will dig it out yourself. Pretty sure Google could help you out if you can spare a minute to look. I would not want to be accused of "spoon feeding" you propaganda......

Does not excuse what has happened, just to repeat.

[JimD]

As an aside, China and Russia fly the friendly skies?: https://www.businessinsider.com/russ...z7gmrL0JP82tng

MOSCOW (AP) — Russian and Chinese strategic bombers on Wednesday flew a joint patrol over the western Pacific in a show of increasingly close defense ties between the two countries.The Russian Defense Ministry said that the Tu-95 bombers of the Russian air force and the Chinese H-6K bombers flew over the Sea of Japan and the East China Sea during an eight-hour mission.
As part of the drills, the Russian bombers for the first time landed in China and the Chinese bombers flew to an air base in Russia, the ministry said in a statement. It noted that the joint patrols weren't directed against any other country.

[L.W. Baxter]

This stuff was common knowledge to many back then, seems you was unaware as you are now, not really surprising given the complete lack or desire to knowledge by most Americans of anything happening outside their own borders.. Im sure there are online archive material, if you are really interested, you will dig it out yourself. Pretty sure Google could help you out if you can spare a minute to look. I would not want to be accused of "spoon feeding" you propaganda......

Does not excuse what has happened, just to repeat.

common knowledge? i don't doubt that there were people spreading this "knowledge" then, as there are now.

i'm talking about a primary source. not an op-ed of bald assertions, insinuations of backroom negotiations, etc..

if you provide me with an actual quote, pre-invasion, from an active nato leader, explicitly saying that nato leadership was in agreement that ukraine would be a member in the future, i will conceed that such was unwise, and provocative.

if there is a written agreement from a nato meeting before the invasion in which leadership codified their position that ukraine would be a member in the future, send me a copy and i will eat it.

[George Jung]

Damn, LW; throwin' the gauntlet!

[Peerie Maa]

Damn, LW; throwin' the gauntlet!

Urinating into a gale more like. Vadim 68 doers not provide sources to back up his claims.

[George Jung]

Other than offering a fun target to poke, I don't believe any here take Vad or Sandy seriously.

[Vadim 68]

.

if you provide me with an actual quote, pre-invasion, from an active nato leader, explicitly saying that nato leadership was in agreement that ukraine would be a member in the future, i will conceed that such was unwise, and provocative..

Do you consider Bush an "active nato leader" back in the day?

Bush: Strong Support for Ukraine in NATO - YouTube

I wouldnt want you to eat it......reading it would suffice......


NATO - Official text: Joint Statement - Meeting of the NATO-Ukraine Commission at the level of Heads of State and Government , 04-Apr.-2008

[Canoez]

How can you even have a sensible discussion with someone who would justify a country invading its neighbor?

[L.W. Baxter]

Damn, LW; throwin' the gauntlet!

this is their chance to dunk on me.

i am reasonably well informed, but i don't know it all.

my impression, though, is the opposite of the narrative being peddled by vadim, sandtown, hr.

putin invaded because ukraine was held at arm's length by nato. when he took crimea, and response from europe was to increase their energy dependance, that must have felt like an encouraging sign.

so, if nato provoked this invasion, perhaps we can put it down to excessive ambivalence about ukraine.

my reading does indicate that nato leaders, in response to the invasion, are firmly backing ukraine membership now.

i would add that ukraine's stiff resistance has made this position tenable. had russia rolled right into kyiv as planned the landscape would be very different. i don't believe for a minute that nato was going to start a war of liberation for ukraine.

[L.W. Baxter]

Do you consider Bush an "active nato leader" back in the day?

Bush: Strong Support for Ukraine in NATO - YouTube

I wouldnt want you to eat it......reading it would suffice......


NATO - Official text: Joint Statement - Meeting of the NATO-Ukraine Commission at the level of Heads of State and Government , 04-Apr.-2008

that joint statement does read like membership was considered a foregone conclusion. maybe i can print it out on something edible. rice paper, or a thin slice of turkey.

interesting that this statement is from 2008, and crimea was taken in 2014. all that friendly talk didn't amount to much.

[skuthorp]

Of course they weren't, Ukraine was a buffer state for NATO as well. But Putin stuffed that up all by himself.

[George Jung]

TFG seemingly was very encouraging to Vlad, as well. I expect he didn't anticipate any resistance, from Ukraine or NATO, based on that encouragement.

[L.W. Baxter]

Of course they weren't, Ukraine was a buffer state for NATO as well. But Putin stuffed that up all by himself.

how long was nato going to dangle the prospect of membership? how long will they continue to dangle it even now?

[Vadim 68]

that joint statement does read like membership was considered a foregone conclusion. maybe i can print it out on something edible. rice paper, or a thin slice of turkey.

interesting that this statement is from 2008, and crimea was taken in 2014. all that friendly talk didn't amount to much.

Im sure you would rather chew the cud here than read this lot:

NATO - Search

There is over 1000 entries in the search for "Ukraine+2008"......you can inform yourself if you choose, now you have the "official" resource.

As for foregone conclusion.....

By bne IntelliNews November 30, 2022

Nato members reaffirmed the organisation's commitment to the 2008 promise to eventually allow Ukraine to join the military alliance...
Russia has long complained about a commitment made in Bucharest in 2008 that Ukraine will be welcome in the military alliance, without giving any timeline or conditions for its accession.

[Vadim 68]

how long was nato going to dangle the prospect of membership? how long will they continue to dangle it even now?

Until internal reforms were to NATO members standards.

Its no surprise that Ukraine was/is still waiting, at least to those with actual knowledge of the country. If the installed powers stopped jailing opposition members and gave back freedom to the press, among other things, they may have become NATO members years ago.

[Canoeyawl]

send me a copy and i will eat it

Damn, LW; throwin' the gauntlet!

Should be a piece of cake compared to fifty eggs

[sandtown]

Until internal reforms were to NATO members standards. .

What are these "standards" of which you speak ??

Why doesn't NATO (and the EU) bounce Hungary and Poland and Turkey while they are about it ??

Correction - Turkey is not in the EU

[Vadim 68]

What are these "standards" of which you speak ??

Why doesn't NATO (and the EU) bounce Hungary and Poland and Turkey while they are about it ??

Not sure what you mean by "bounce". They are existing members.

As to standards, I have not read any specific document outlining any details, just recall certain heads of State demanding changes inside Ukraine so that they can join. The obvious i have mentioned, not jailing opposition party members or media who may promote another view than the existing government, getting oligarchs out of positions of influence and the general rule of law that applies to all. Bit of an ask when other States allow some of that. Freedom of thought and expression seems to be under threat in the West. In the UK they are reading a "Public order bill", that will possibly ban public protest; something regarded by many as a corner stone of democracy. NATO is supposed to be elevating Ukraine's responsibilities, not sinking down to its current level.

I am guessing this is the kind of behaviour they do not want to see from a NATO government.

Parliament punch-up: Huge fight erupts among MPs in Ukraine legislature - YouTube

Ukraine parliament scrap: 2 MPs brutally fist fight over bill - YouTube

The people of Ukraine deserve better, as do those in Russia.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Parliament punch-up: Huge fight erupts among MPs in Ukraine legislature - YouTube

10 years ago.

Ukraine parliament scrap: 2 MPs brutally fist fight over bill - YouTube

7 years ago.

[Osborne Russell]

Its been denied as Ukraine was not seen as "democratic" enough, as you are probably aware.

This from yesterday,

"[FONT="]NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg in a Tuesday press briefing issued an ultra-provocative statement telling Ukraine that [/FONT]"NATO's door is open"[FONT="]. [/FONT]He pledged that one day the eastern European country which has for nine months been under Russian invasion will become a NATO member."

Seems some "red lines" are meaningless to some people.

NATO draws its own lines. They may have a Complaints Department you could seek out.

From yesterday, eh? But from whom? What wormtongue described it as "ultra-provocative"? Surely you haven't fallen to quoting anonymous Russians.

[L.W. Baxter]

dangling nato membership as a carrot seems like nato forgetting its purpose.

either the membership of ukraine was beneficial to the security interests of nato, and vice versa, or it was not.

same is true today. i had assumed that, post-invasion, the public promotion of ukraine's nato membership is setting the table for the negotiations at war's end. in other words, a commitment to be traded away.

but, how to make sense of the language in that 2008 statement. fourteen years on.

was the promise sincere? or did nato leadership think that they could thereby provide some protection for ukraine without committing to its defense? a bluff of sorts? doesn't appear to have worked.

[gypsie]

Yes still nitpicking. Or rather shifting the goal posts.
Now stop digging.

what are you talking about Nick. Honestly I've completely lost you.
Bombing citizenry works, has worked and will probably work in the future. That's not nitpicking, it's actually quite broad.

[gypsie]

No it isn't. It's just one of the niche theories.

So George, how do you think the conversation went?

messenger 1: Supreme commander the US has bombed scores of our cities to rubble, and now they've dropped two bombs that have each destroyed an entire city!
Supreme commander: yawn.
messenger 2: the Russians are looking a bit menacing on the northern frontier.
Supreme commander: Holy s#it snacks, we must surrender immediately!