Ukraine

[johnw]

It is more honest to make your position clear without hiding behind a peaceful negotiations facade.

I’m quite aware of America’s sins. Wars in Vietnam, Central America, the Balkhans, Iraq, or Afghanistan did not lead Russia to invade Ukraine and commit war crimes. The way for America to atone for its past sins is not by abandoning Ukraine to Russia. Unless, I suppose, one wanted to see Russia succeed.

When anyone tries to discuss with him the substance of negotiations, Sandy pulls back into his shell. If he actually cared about negotiations, he'd be happy to discuss them. All he wants to talk about is denouncing America and all its works in a way that seems more like religion than reason. It's a shame, because how this war ends is a pretty difficult problem. As I said before, it's difficult to see an off-ramp for either side, and we need them for both sides.

[heimfried]

I think, he is right:

The best path to peace is not talks with Putin, but helping Ukraine to win this war
Timothy Garton Ash
There will come a time for negotiations – but calls to reach a deal with the Kremlin now are more wrong-headed than ever
[...]
Donald Trump recently hinted that he might be the perfect candidate to practise the art of the deal with Putin. Silvio Berlusconi has also proposed himself as a mediator. What a dream team they would be together – Moscow’s dream team. Putin would like nothing more than to have a ceasefire in Ukraine while these two sit around his Covid-secure long table in the Kremlin. Meanwhile, the Russian dictator’s battered, demoralised armed forces could dig in to defend the still-large expanse of Ukraine they occupy, regroup, rest, rearm, bring in the recently conscripted reinforcements – and then start up the war again, sending a thank-you consignment of vodka to Berlusconi and Trump.
[...]

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...in-war-kremlin

[WszystekPoTrochu]

I think, he is right

He is absolutely right, a ceasefire benefits one side and one side only.

[SKIP KILPATRICK]

Killing Russians is not the simple answer though is it? That would lead to possible nuclear conflict. The only "simple" thing about that idea are the people who suggest it, as they clearly have no grasp on the real world implications, or just do not care.

Russians always want to play their nuclear card. Threats, threats, and more threats! Veiled threats as usual. Go suck it!

[gypsie]

Killing Russians is not the simple answer though is it?

The Simple Answer - so easy to write.

I'm not sure what the word 'answer' means in that question - but if the Ukrainians having to respond to Russian aggression is equal to Ukraine 'answering' Russian aggression then maybe we are on the same wavelength.
I'm also not sure about the word 'the' - it kind implies a range of choices for Ukraine? If so - care to elaborate?

I agree - killing Russians is not a simple answer.

The simple answer would be for Russia to be a good global citizen.
Until then Russians appear hell bent on giving citizens of other countries no choice but to kill Russians. And right now there are multiple countries in that category.
Its a simple fact, all the simple answers are in Russia's hands. Everyone else has to do the hard yards.

As always - really keen to have you paint a picture of the alternatives, rather than hear you pour out more platitudes.

[Nicholas Carey]

I did not know that Putin has created his version of die Hitlerjugend.

Shall we call it die Putinjugend?

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...the-motherland

[skuthorp]

Common practice in RW dictatorships, steal the children og your opponents and bring them up in the regimes image. The ultimate revenge.

[sandtown]

Or maybe some folks need to frame every conflict in good guys and bad guys is so strong that characterizing the issues in other terms is interpreted as giving aid and comfort to the bad guys. That was GW’s speechwriters talking point from the WhiteHouse Iraq Group in dealing with domestic opposition to the invasion of Iraq.

Well actually, things got so hot in 2003 that Dubya made a plea to the public that those of us opposed to that insane war had a right to express our views.

The threats against our crowd declined noticeably around then.

I respect him for that.

[sandtown]

[QUOTE=dutchpp;6760886]20 questions are usually enough to built a picture of someone, I wonder if an overview of the last 10 posts could do the same

Care to explain why any of those posts are unacceptable ??

I'd say that all of them are civil, and most are cogent.

Why cannot you abide dissent ??

But I note that the Netherlands has taken in 55,000 Ukr refugees - geez you are making us look bad.



In October 2022, the United States accepted 72 refugees from Ukraine. In fiscal year 2022 - which ended September 30 - the U.S. had accepted a total of 1,610 Ukrainian refugees.






(And the word you were searching for is "build")

[sandtown]

Russians always want to play their nuclear card. Threats, threats, and more threats! Veiled threats as usual. Go suck it!

More total Bull Pucky - the US has threatened the use of nukes far more often.

You choose to ignore the 800 pound nuclear gorilla in the room.

[sandtown]

I dunno Lee. Maybe for some the need to demonize America is so strong that it bleeds over into defending Russia. Seems crazy to me. I think each can be judged by its own actions and history.

I completely agree, and would say that Vets For Peace tries to be clear-eyed about that.

[sandtown]

20 questions are usually enough to built a picture of someone.

How long did it take you to built that list ??

[sandtown]

Yep. I do believe most everyone here has identified the culprit.

I never was very politically correct.

[sandtown]

If you get tired of beating up on me, how about a good stiff shot of Clare Daly ?? (It's only one minute!!)

https://twitter.com/ClareDalyMEP/sta...k3EFj1K9w&s=09

[dutchpp]

The ISW Russian offensive campaign assessment, November 23

Be aware there won't be a report at November 24.

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...nt-november-23

Key Takeaways

• The Russian military conducted another set of massive, coordinated missile strikes on Ukrainian critical infrastructure.
• Russian politicians continue to promote openly genocidal rhetoric against Ukraine.
• The Kremlin continues to pursue its maximalist goals and is likely issuing vague statements about its intent to mislead Western Countries into pressuring Ukraine into negotiations.
• Russian sources claimed that Ukrainian forces continued counteroffensive operations in the directions of Kreminna and Svatove.
• Russian forces continued offensive operations around Bakhmut and Avdiivka.
• Russian forces continued defensive operations on the east (left) bank of the Dnipro River in Kherson Oblast.
• The Kremlin is continuing crypto-mobilization efforts at the expense of other Russian security services.
• Russian forces and occupation officials continued to forcibly relocate residents and confiscate their property.

[Vadim 68]

[QUOTE=gypsie;6761095].

I'm not sure what the word 'answer' means in that question

It was a further response to follow a response on post #7069

but if the Ukrainians having to respond to Russian aggression is equal to Ukraine 'answering' Russian aggression then maybe we are on the same wavelength.

We are not on the same wavelength; though i have no issue with professional soldiers killing each other in a designated field away from civilians.

I'm also not sure about the word 'the' - it kind implies a range of choices for Ukraine? If so - care to elaborate?

Not really, i suggest peace talks and get thrown "platitudes".

I agree - killing Russians is not a simple answer.

The simple answer would be for Russia to be a good global citizen.
Until then Russians appear hell bent on giving citizens of other countries no choice but to kill Russians. And right now there are multiple countries in that category.

Simplistic and not taking into account the events in East Ukraine in the last 7 years.

Its a simple fact, all the simple answers are in Russia's hands. Everyone else has to do the hard yards.

You believe its simple because you only see part of the problem.

As always - really keen to have you paint a picture of the alternatives, rather than hear you pour out more platitudes.

No point. My alternative or yours, or anyone elses is nothing more than hopes, wants or speculation. None of us control the outcome. News from colleagues still on the ground suggest there are a lot of people angry at Zelensky for not upholding Minsk 2, the past years devastation could have been avoided; not everyone believes more arms and violence are the answer.

Russia bombed 2 hospitals yesterday including a maternity hospital with the death of new borns, notch up another war crime.

[Nicholas Carey]

If you get tired of beating up on me, how about a good stiff shot of Clare Daly ?? (It's only one minute!!)

https://twitter.com/ClareDalyMEP/sta...k3EFj1K9w&s=09

I do agree with her (quelle horreur!) that Russia shouldn't Be designated a "state sponsor of terrorism".

Russia should instead be designated as a terrorist organization. Its conduct in war since (at the very least) the 1st Chechen War nearly 30 years ago demonstrates that it is.

And looking at Russia's behaviour over the preceding 70-some years before that, going back to the Bolshevik Revolution, wouldn't improve its standing one whit. Drag it down significantly, in fact.

The Pig Song

One evening last September,
A night I well remember,
I was taking home a load in drunken pride,
When me knees began to flutter,
AndI fell down in the gutter,
And a pig came up and lay down by my side.

As I lay there in the gutter
Thinking thoughts I could not utter
And I heard a passing lady say,:
"You can tell a man who boozes
By the company he chooses,"
And, with that, the pig got up and slowly walked away.

[Vadim 68]

Russia should instead be designated as a terrorist organization. Its conduct in war since (at the very least) the 1st Chechen War nearly 30 years ago demonstrates that it is.

By the same standard, both US and UK should fall under the same, after events in Iraq ,Afghanistan and Syria. Hold all to account or none at all.

[epoxyboy]

Killing Russians is not the simple answer though is it? That would lead to possible nuclear conflict. The only "simple" thing about that idea are the people who suggest it, as they clearly have no grasp on the real world implications, or just do not care.

Killing Russians, en masse, on Russian soil before they enter Ukraine, would be the simple answer - with the risks you describe, risks that everyone is painfully well aware of.
From the comfort of my armchair, I have to say that the level of restraint demonstrated by Ukraine (and to some degree their allies) in confining themselves to almost exclusively only killing Russians on Ukrainian soil, has been exemplary.
The temptation to serve up a big dose of cruise missile deep into Russia must be extreme, but it's not happening. IIRC, there is only one person here advocating "onwards to Moscow". Everyone else would much prefer Russians pack up and f**k off. But failing that, sadly the killing will continue.
I read a rumor that putin is planning to mobilize another 500k+ troops in the new year. What's he going to arm them with, pitchforks? If it's true, how may do you think will survive (given how badly the current batch of mobiks are faring), and where should the blame rest for those who don't?
The simple answer is that until the Russian people wake up to themselves, the Ukrainian people have to kill, kill, kill if they want to survive as a nation with a future. It's horrifying, but the Russians have demonstrated over and over again that the alternative is worse.

Pete

[Vadim 68]

[QUOTE=epoxyboy;6761162]

Killing Russians, en masse, on Russian soil before they enter Ukraine, would be the simple answer - with the risks you describe, risks that everyone is painfully well aware of.
From the comfort of my armchair, I have to say that the level of restraint demonstrated by Ukraine (and to some degree their allies) in confining themselves to almost exclusively only killing Russians on Ukrainian soil, has been exemplary.
The temptation to serve up a big dose of cruise missile deep into Russia must be extreme, but it's not happening. IIRC, there is only one person here advocating "onwards to Moscow".

You forget at least one has voiced an opinion to wiping every Russian from the face of the earth......as a lesson.

Everyone else would much prefer Russians pack up and f**k off. But failing that, sadly the killing will continue.
I read a rumor that putin is planning to mobilize another 500k+ troops in the new year. What's he going to arm them with, pitchforks?

Recruitment drives are ongoing in various areas of Russia. There is no shortage of AKs in the world.

If it's true, how may do you think will survive (given how badly the current batch of mobiks are faring), and where should the blame rest for those who don't?

I do not expect to see much difference to the current losses. Blame lands on those who sent them, others may say they are doing their patriotic duty. Personally, i distinguish between professional soldiers who voluntary joined, and draftees.

The simple answer is that until the Russian people wake up to themselves, the Ukrainian people have to kill, kill, kill if they want to survive as a nation with a future.

Appears to take a long time and a lot of killing to wake people up, and more truth. Took the horrors of Iraq for people of the UK to scare the powers that be getting involved in Syria was not a politically winning idea.

Unfortunately, the propaganda machine is more effective inside Russia, but things are changing, if slowly.

[George.]

[QUOTE=Vadim 68;6761167]

You forget at least one has voiced an opinion to wiping every Russian from the face of the earth......as a lesson.

So what?

That's not my fault.

It's your fault.

[JayInOz]

There was a march in Moscow last week of placard waving far right Russians demanding that Russia invade Washington. I watched the footage. Laughable if it wasn't so stupid. JayInOz

[sandtown]

There was a march in Moscow last week of placard waving far right Russians demanding that Russia invade Washington. I watched the footage. Laughable if it wasn't so stupid. JayInOz

The lesson you might take from that, but won't . .

is to finally realize that Putin is not the sole issue on the Russian side.

[sandtown]

Russia should instead be designated as a terrorist organization. Its conduct in war since (at the very least) the 1st Chechen War nearly 30 years ago demonstrates that it is.

And looking at Russia's behaviour over the preceding 70-some years before that, going back to the Bolshevik Revolution, wouldn't improve its standing one whit. Drag it down significantly, in fact. .

If war is a disease, you are running a fever,

and missing Clare's point.

[Gerarddm]

Again, why you all engage with Mr. Russian Bot and his ilk is beyond me.

Meanwhile, keep killing Russians. Eventually they will get the message.

[WX]

By the same standard, both US and UK should fall under the same, after events in Iraq ,Afghanistan and Syria. Hold all to account or none at all.

As Churchill once said, the first casualty of War is truth.
I would be quite happy to see Bush, Blair and Howard at The Hague. However, none of that means we should not help Ukraine.

[Decourcy]

My wife’s grandfather (a tailer forced into the German army and sent to the eastern front late in the war because he was older at the time) was kept in a labour camp for 7 years after the war ended, and sent home blind from malnutrition. Russian behaviour in war and after has been below what one would hope for a very long time. One can hardly blame a Ukrainian for not wanting any part.

[Decourcy]

Again, why you all engage with Mr. Russian Bot and his ilk is beyond me.

Meanwhile, keep killing Russians. Eventually they will get the message.

Funny, I feel the same about someone who wants to break into my house. Not sure why you see that differently.

[Vadim 68]

Meanwhile, keep killing Russians. Eventually they will get the message.

Adolf had a similar "solution", you seem oblivious to your own hate speech, let alone history.

The greater question is why you get a free pass from most here?

[Decourcy]

Adolf had a similar "solution", you seem oblivious to your own hate speech, let alone history.

The greater question is why you get a free pass from most here?

I just had to peek and yup, confirmed that you aren’t the brightest bulb. ‘Cause you know the analogy is actually not at all the same?

[Decourcy]

Pretty sure the Russians in 1944 were saying “keep killing Germans” though. And they had the right to say and do that, at least until they had ejected the unwelcome visitors

[LeeG]

Well actually, things got so hot in 2003 that Dubya made a plea to the public that those of us opposed to that insane war had a right to express our views.

The threats against our crowd declined noticeably around then.

I respect him for that.

GW is a nice guy and enabler of war crimes.

[Vadim 68]

Pretty sure the Russians in 1944 were saying “keep killing Germans” though. And they had the right to say and do that, at least until they had ejected the unwelcome visitors

Sure. Understandable.

That is not the same as suggesting killing every man woman and child just because they were born in Russia, "to teach them a lesson".

If you didnt approve of Adolfs plan, if you disagree with the Iranians view on Isreal, then you have to disagree with this person suggesting wiping the earth of Russians is not an ok idea.

[Decourcy]

Sure. Understandable.

That is not the same as suggesting killing every man woman and child just because they were born in Russia, "to teach them a lesson".

If you didnt approve of Adolfs plan, if you disagree with the Iranians view on Isreal, then you have to disagree with this person suggesting wiping the earth of Russians is not an ok idea.

Don’t think he’s suggesting killing every man woman and child in Russia, only that he’s fine with killing every Russian that’s an uninvited guest.

If I’m wrong and he suggests killing them all, then yup, you’re correct. But unless I missed it, I haven’t seen a “kill em all” statement

[Vadim 68]

Don’t think he’s suggesting killing every man woman and child in Russia, only that he’s fine with killing every Russian that’s an uninvited guest.

If I’m wrong and he suggests killing them all, then yup, you’re correct. But unless I missed it, I haven’t seen a “kill em all” statement

Here you go. Doubled down on his sick statement also.

My comment on the Russians is: kill them all. Teach history a lesson.