Ukraine

[Osborne Russell]

The difference is in the intended effects. Tactical is when the aim is to change the situation in the battlefield. Strategic is when the aim is to terrorize the enemy into giving up.

A Hiroshima-size bomb on a Ukrainian troop concentration would be tactical. A 5-kt bomb detonated over, say, Kharkiv would be strategic.

What value is the distinction? Why make it? It has the effect of minimizing the threat. That is to Putin's advantage.

He makes the threat, he is crushed; because strategic is a threat just begging to be crushed -- demanding, needing to be crushed -- and tactical implies strategic, all semantics aside.

[WszystekPoTrochu]

Today's attacks damaged the visa department of German embassy in Kiev. Went to take a look what might have been the set target, if there was any.

Assuming small targetting error, the district heating plant across the street. Assuming larger but probable error, the main train station.

[Tom Hunter]

Someone just sabotaged Germany's rail system Sabotage cause of massive train disruption in northern Germany, rail operator says | News | DW | 08.10.2022 related to Ukraine?

[johnw]

The difference is in the intended effects. Tactical is when the aim is to change the situation in the battlefield. Strategic is when the aim is to terrorize the enemy into giving up.

A Hiroshima-size bomb on a Ukrainian troop concentration would be tactical. A 5-kt bomb detonated over, say, Kharkiv would be strategic.

Not true. Terror bombing is different from strategic bombing, which is intended to reduce your enemy's ability to wage war. Bombing a refinery or a munitions plant is strategic. Bombing a column of tanks is tactical. Bombing London and Dresden was terror bombing.

Nukes can and have been used for terror bombing. I suppose they could be used for strategic bombing. As Wesley Clark pointed out in the vid I linked to, no one has figured out a way to use nukes for tactical bombing.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

This is a perfect speech by the Ukrainian Minister Of Defence.

Not one word wasted.

https://twitter.com/defenceu/status/...taS0XE4ERA7Y6g

The list of Generals, Admirals and Air Marshals is because they are all still there. Unlike the Russian commanders.

[heimfried]

Someone just sabotaged Germany's rail system Sabotage cause of massive train disruption in northern Germany, rail operator says | News | DW | 08.10.2022 related to Ukraine?

I think so and said this yesterday http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...57#post6737857

One of the two crime scenes is just about 1 Kilometer away from my home.

[Tom Montgomery]

Of course. So what? Russia is the aggressor. That is not Ukrainian propaganda.

Your sympathies? What are they worth? A Ukrainian is the same as you, a human, with precisely the same rights. Abandon hers, you abandon yours . . . and mine.

My sympathies translate to support of U.S. policy to provide Ukraine with the weapons they need to drive the imperialists out of their country.

Is that clear enough for you?

As for both sides engaging in propaganda... I was referring to the rhetoric from both sides surrounding the shelling going on around the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant. Both have been doing it though each side blames the other.

[Henning 4148]

I think so and said this yesterday http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...57#post6737857

One of the two crime scenes is just about 1 Kilometer away from my home.

Seems the rail service is pretty much up and running again in the meantime.

[CollinR]

You should all read the speech by the Ukranian Minister of Defence that Andrew posted above, powerful stuff indeed. I wonder how far it will get into Russia.

[heimfried]

Seems the rail service is pretty much up and running again in the meantime.

Yes, the interruption was only about 3 hours. But I think it is meant as a thread that it could be much worse next time.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Stefan Korshak for today:

https://medium.com/@Stefan.Korshak/o...s-60bfc233e2ba

[Henning 4148]

Yes, the interruption was only about 3 hours. But I think it is meant as a thread that it could be much worse next time.

Yes, it might. Then again, it might not. The tune of the news is, that it was probably done by German right wing wackos (yeah, got a few of them, some even Putin fans ...) - and since those wackos started shooting at police in the last years, they get a lot of attention. So - chances are that if it was Germans own wackos, they will be behind bars sooner than later.

[WX]

This is a perfect speech by the Ukrainian Minister Of Defence.

Not one word wasted.

https://twitter.com/defenceu/status/...taS0XE4ERA7Y6g

The list of Generals, Admirals and Air Marshals is because they are all still there. Unlike the Russian commanders.

One powerful speech.

[skuthorp]

The kind of speech that a victor gives. Though 'victory' over Russia will always be temporary at best. They will try again sometime.
Vlad's reactions to the bridge damage smacks of a tantrum rather than a thought out reaction.

[gypsie]

The indiscriminate bombing is putting pressure on the West to provide even more diverse and advanced arms. Air defence systems.
Outin is digging a deeper hole. His bombing of Ukrainian non-military targets is providing the cover for the Ukrainians to get weapons that will take out his very-much-military targets.

[Tom Hunter]

Putin is stuck, he does not have the capability to do what he wants, so he does what he can.

[JayInOz]

Seems the rail service is pretty much up and running again in the meantime.

That was a really annoying thing about the Germans- you'd blow up their stuff and they'd come right out and fix it again JayInOz

[gypsie]

This is a perfect speech by the Ukrainian Minister Of Defence.

Not one word wasted.

https://twitter.com/defenceu/status/...taS0XE4ERA7Y6g

The list of Generals, Admirals and Air Marshals is because they are all still there. Unlike the Russian commanders.

Psy-ops.

'Remembered as rapists...'
Part of me thinks of the Russian soldier and what they are doing and think they won't give a fig about being remembered as rapists and thieves.
I watch Russians in the streets in Moscow and elsewhere and you see people who fully believe they are decent 'good guys'. I see people totally sucked in by propaganda, and I think they simply won't believe it.
Then there are those who know but say nothing or run when the draft notices start to circulate. They'll hide the truth from themselves. They'll start to read Sandtowns posts and believe they were actually the good guys afterall.

The difference between WWII and this one is there won't be a Nuremburg. The Russians will never come to grips with their savagery. Unless there's complete humiliation and NATO walks into Moscow and de-nuclearises the country. I don't think thats on the cards.
Though maybe the sanctions bite so hard de-neuclearising might be an incentive to lift them. The Russians will need to look deep inside themselves then. So much of their identity as a power comes from their nuclear arsenal (if it even functions anymore).

[C. Ross]

…the quondam scientific and engineering powerhouse of the Soviet Union.

Thank you for the new word!

[Decourcy]

Thank you for the new word!

Right? I come here just for the scrabble wins



I joke. But the IQ level here is obviously mostly sited on the right side of the bell curve. And it’s always a shock when I try to have a conversation in the real world of the type and complexity which is the norm here. That’s why none of us can ever leave.


I get most of my news and conversation subjects from this site. I am now officially a stalker.

[Nicholas Carey]

A little cyber warfare to start off the week.

https://www.q13fox.com/news/apparent...-websites-down

Seems that a bunch of US airport web sites went down this morning due to a massive DDOS (distributed denial-of-service) attack, courtesy of you-know-who

https://youtu.be/3DLxsseirLc

[Decourcy]

Psy-ops.

'Remembered as rapists...'
Part of me thinks of the Russian soldier and what they are doing and think they won't give a fig about being remembered as rapists and thieves.
I watch Russians in the streets in Moscow and elsewhere and you see people who fully believe they are decent 'good guys'. I see people totally sucked in by propaganda, and I think they simply won't believe it.
Then there are those who know but say nothing or run when the draft notices start to circulate. They'll hide the truth from themselves. They'll start to read Sandtowns posts and believe they were actually the good guys afterall.

The difference between WWII and this one is there won't be a Nuremburg. The Russians will never come to grips with their savagery. Unless there's complete humiliation and NATO walks into Moscow and de-nuclearises the country. I don't think thats on the cards.
Though maybe the sanctions bite so hard de-neuclearising might be an incentive to lift them. The Russians will need to look deep inside themselves then. So much of their identity as a power comes from their nuclear arsenal (if it even functions anymore).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Th...e_(experiment)



Here, but the Grace of God, go I? It’s impossible to know how we would act inside such a system, as much as we tell ourself that we would know right from wrong.


I actually have a lot of faith in the youth of Russia, and elsewhere. They tend to have the confidence that comes with youth, and the ignorance of consequences that allow great changes to happen. The “1420” interviews give me hope for Russia’s future. And much as we support the change in Iran, we need to not blame the average Russian, but to support them in that inevitable change as well.

[skuthorp]

As long as Vlad doesn't close down their future for them………………………..

[Decourcy]

As long as Vlad doesn't close down their future for them………………………..

That is where confidence and ignorance of consequence comes in. The last uprisings in Iran resulted in 1500 deaths. This time may be more. Putin will go, the youth want him gone, and we should let the youth know that we are on their side, as we do with Iran, so they know they are not alone.


Anti Russian language doesn’t help. The Russian people are impressive and resilient people. It’s the regime. We don’t talk about “Germany” in the ‘40’s as the issue, we talk about the nazi’s. We need to separate Russia (a great people) from the regime which has them under their power.

[Decourcy]

So fuck Putin. I admire the Russians that risk their lives by standing up, either by leaving or by speaking out. It’s easy to talk, here, in a free society. But to do so in a society like Russia (or Iran) is to risk death.

[C. Ross]

Some of us are not OK with that . . .

This voyage of peace is dedicated to all of you . . . that you may find peace, and/or it find you.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/GoldenRulePeaceBoat/

Why I just saw those guys at the furthest north navigable spot on the Mississippi, two weeks ago.

10483884-95A2-4620-85A0-40FAF43B7FC9.jpg

[JayInOz]

Sailing for peace I'm eating icecream to save the whales. JayInOz

[WX]

Sailing for peace I'm eating icecream to save the whales. JayInOz

Land rights for gay whales.

[gypsie]

I actually have a lot of faith in the youth of Russia, and elsewhere. They tend to have the confidence that comes with youth, and the ignorance of consequences that allow great changes to happen. The “1420” interviews give me hope for Russia’s future. And much as we support the change in Iran, we need to not blame the average Russian, but to support them in that inevitable change as well.

I agree with all that.

However I'm not as hopeful as you. At least not in any short time scale. Over generations, maybe, but I think Russia was going there incrementally with or without the war.

Systemic, institutional, culture is the hardest thing to change. The 20 somethings today will inherit the institutions of tomorrow in 20+ years time by which time they'll be indoctrinated into practices and processes. Think of how hard it has been to change sexism or racism in our countries. Generations of work, much still to be done. Its very hard to break 'normal'. If true democracy comes, most voters in Russia are over 50 (it has a dramatically aging population) and are fully patriotic-war freaks. They'll decide who rules for another decade or more. There are enough youth also so inclined, especially outside the two cities, to carry that can for decades after that.

Stalin, Khrushchev, Putin are all iterations of the tzar which has essentially been the system of government in Russia for centuries. The demos have never really self determined anything as we would understand it. An overriding impression I have from the 1420 interviews is how readily the population, and the young, defer control to their political leaders. There is little to no hint that the ordinary person feels responsible for political actions. Could be fear of speaking out... In the end its hard to see people, who so easily abrogate their responsibilities, turn their own world up side down - without a deep introspective moment (something like Nuremburg or total humiliation in the war).

[sandtown]

Sailing for peace I'm eating icecream to save the whales. JayInOz

Ever hear of the Pacific Peacemaker ?? Some of that crew wound up working with the Golden Rule

https://archiveswest.orbiscascade.or...80444/xv343627

Or is it that you have stopped trying and gave up and get your jollies out of attacking those who have not ??

[Decourcy]

I agree with all that.

However I'm not as hopeful as you. At least not in any short time scale. Over generations, maybe, but I think Russia was going there incrementally with or without the war.

Systemic, institutional, culture is the hardest thing to change. The 20 somethings today will inherit the institutions of tomorrow in 20+ years time by which time they'll be indoctrinated into practices and processes. Think of how hard it has been to change sexism or racism in our countries. Generations of work, much still to be done. Its very hard to break 'normal'. If true democracy comes, most voters in Russia are over 50 (it has a dramatically aging population) and are fully patriotic-war freaks. They'll decide who rules for another decade or more. There are enough youth also so inclined, especially outside the two cities, to carry that can for decades after that.

Stalin, Khrushchev, Putin are all iterations of the tzar which has essentially been the system of government in Russia for centuries. The demos have never really self determined anything as we would understand it. An overriding impression I have from the 1420 interviews is how readily the population, and the young, defer control to their political leaders. There is little to no hint that the ordinary person feels responsible for political actions. Could be fear of speaking out... In the end its hard to see people, who so easily abrogate their responsibilities, turn their own world up side down - without a deep introspective moment (something like Nuremburg or total humiliation in the war).

I believe a breaking point will come, and the youth will rise up en mass. Like has happened
in other countries. It’s just a matter of time.

And fear can appear as apathy. But in numbers, the fear disappears.

[JayInOz]

Sandtown- name and location withheld- I don't know anything about you other than what you have shown of yourself on here. I have a picture in my mind of you with a scowl on your face, beginning every day with a coffee, sitting in front of the TV watching the morning news and loudly voicing your opinions about all that's wrong in the world and then banging away at your keyboard telling people why they're all idiots. For her sake I hope you don't have a missus. I get my jollies in many ways- it never occurred to me to claim to be doing it for the good of the planet- thanks for the tip. Enjoy your little sail JayInOz

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I just caught a BBC radio (“Today” programme - audience c.7m) with the Head of GCHQ who, if I heard right, said that the Russian Army is starting to run out of ammunition and that the war could be over by Christmas.

[Hallam]

In this situation, saving face is getting more milage than it deserves.

[skuthorp]

Re the Phoney War.
Seems to me the mood in europe after Russia's actions is such that an escalation might well be acceptable.