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Thread: Ukraine

  1. #5601
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    The height of the bridge is perhaps 10-12 meters above sea level. It is my understanding that the energy of an explosion dissipates rapidly with distance, so if the charge was detonated on the surface it would have to be a truly huge charge. A surface charge would also have caused a large spray of water, which would have been visible in the videos. Some kind of device that can launch a charge vertically to detonate against the underside of the deck would probably be much more efficient. The "bow wave" would be consistent with the recoil and displacement of water a small vessel would experience when launching such a device.
    Bundin er bátleysur mağur

  2. #5602
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Don't apologize, it is not your area of expertise.
    Two points
    Girders are as capable of resisting load in either direction. RSJs do not have this way up stamped in the top. Lattice girders not so much as they have to be designed for compression only in the top members, you can use wire cables for the lower tension members. But this was not a lattice.
    I am intrigued to understand how a blast under one of a pair of bridge decks, some several meters down on the sea surface, only disrupts one of the two, whilst blasting up between the narrow gap (not visible in the videos) between the two decks with enough force to burst and ignite the oil in a rail car,, several tens of meters above the intact deck.

    However, a focussed blast from below could lift, then drop that deck to achieve the same effect as a blast driving it down. It just raises questions about the oil tanker train and would it not also compromise the neighboring, supposedly intact, deck?
    It is a real puzzle.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  3. #5603
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Oyvind Snibsoer View Post
    The height of the bridge is perhaps 10-12 meters above sea level. It is my understanding that the energy of an explosion dissipates rapidly with distance, so if the charge was detonated on the surface it would have to be a truly huge charge. A surface charge would also have caused a large spray of water, which would have been visible in the videos. Some kind of device that can launch a charge vertically to detonate against the underside of the deck would probably be much more efficient. The "bow wave" would be consistent with the recoil and displacement of water a small vessel would experience when launching such a device.
    Someone speaking truth.

    What sort of contact explosive capable of being fired from a small boat would lift and displace sideways that tonnage of deck, without just punching a hole through it?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  4. #5604
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    There is much 'amateur' expertise in building tailor made IUD's these days. I say follow the money, or tactical advantage in this case. I am not convinced that such an act was in Ukraine's advantage. But if Vlad wished to expand the war……….. Russian black ops?
    It's possible in this scenario that the 'demonstration' was somewhat overcooked……… oops…..

  5. #5605
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Someone speaking truth.

    What sort of contact explosive capable of being fired from a small boat would lift and displace sideways that tonnage of deck, without just punching a hole through it?
    An elongated charge, long enough to cut the width of the double lane. If you already have to capability to build a remote controlled vessel to launch such an attack, custom shaping the vessel and charge for the job at hand shouldn't be too hard.
    Bundin er bátleysur mağur

  6. #5606
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    Ukrainian forces were shelling around that nuclear reactor as well. Wasn't it occupied by Russian forces? I accept that Russia is the unlawful aggressor and my sympathies are with the Ukrainians. But I also recognize that both sides are engaging in propaganda.
    Of course. So what? Russia is the aggressor. That is not Ukrainian propaganda.

    Your sympathies? What are they worth? A Ukrainian is the same as you, a human, with precisely the same rights. Abandon hers, you abandon yours . . . and mine.

    You are going to have to pick a side. Killing is necessary, it's well underway, because it's necessary. Both sides are the same indeed, in that. Killing is going to occur. But . . . but . . . but . . . your sympathies?

    What guides your choice of, upon whom shall I confer my sympathies? It is within your power to demand the employment of the force you already possess. "Peace in our time" brings war and killing to the future. Death may shield you from the fulll consequences of your choice -- death is merciful -- but people yet unborn will curse your name. The decision is upon you now.

    It's all about you? I agree. You are personally responsible for your choice to the world now and the world to come. Upon your soul, do not flake out.
    Long live the rights of man.

  7. #5607
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    The difference between "tactical" and "strategic" isn't so much much yield as it is reach.
    Fooey. A missile carries one warhead or the other.
    Long live the rights of man.

  8. #5608
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    That is because you are reading into what they post what you expect to see and not what is actually written. Empathy and respect for how Ukraine is dealing with the invasion is not a love of war or violence.
    Not, repeat, not. Love? No. Necessity. Killing is necessary. How to minimize it? By killing decisively. One adopts the principle by serving in the military.
    Last edited by Osborne Russell; 10-10-2022 at 08:50 AM.
    Long live the rights of man.

  9. #5609
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    The difference is in the intended effects. Tactical is when the aim is to change the situation in the battlefield. Strategic is when the aim is to terrorize the enemy into giving up.

    A Hiroshima-size bomb on a Ukrainian troop concentration would be tactical. A 5-kt bomb detonated over, say, Kharkiv would be strategic.
    What value is the distinction? Why make it? It has the effect of minimizing the threat. That is to Putin's advantage.

    He makes the threat, he is crushed; because strategic is a threat just begging to be crushed -- demanding, needing to be crushed -- and tactical implies strategic, all semantics aside.
    Long live the rights of man.

  10. #5610
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Today's attacks damaged the visa department of German embassy in Kiev. Went to take a look what might have been the set target, if there was any.

    Assuming small targetting error, the district heating plant across the street. Assuming larger but probable error, the main train station.
    WszystekPoTrochu's signature available only for premium forum users.

  11. #5611
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Yachting, the only sport where you get to be a mechanic, electrician, plumber and carpenter

  12. #5612
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    The difference is in the intended effects. Tactical is when the aim is to change the situation in the battlefield. Strategic is when the aim is to terrorize the enemy into giving up.

    A Hiroshima-size bomb on a Ukrainian troop concentration would be tactical. A 5-kt bomb detonated over, say, Kharkiv would be strategic.
    Not true. Terror bombing is different from strategic bombing, which is intended to reduce your enemy's ability to wage war. Bombing a refinery or a munitions plant is strategic. Bombing a column of tanks is tactical. Bombing London and Dresden was terror bombing.

    Nukes can and have been used for terror bombing. I suppose they could be used for strategic bombing. As Wesley Clark pointed out in the vid I linked to, no one has figured out a way to use nukes for tactical bombing.

  13. #5613
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    This is a perfect speech by the Ukrainian Minister Of Defence.

    Not one word wasted.

    https://twitter.com/defenceu/status/...taS0XE4ERA7Y6g

    The list of Generals, Admirals and Air Marshals is because they are all still there. Unlike the Russian commanders.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  14. #5614
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hunter View Post

    I think so and said this yesterday http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...57#post6737857

    One of the two crime scenes is just about 1 Kilometer away from my home.
    Gruß, Günter

  15. #5615
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell
    Of course. So what? Russia is the aggressor. That is not Ukrainian propaganda.

    Your sympathies? What are they worth? A Ukrainian is the same as you, a human, with precisely the same rights. Abandon hers, you abandon yours . . . and mine.
    My sympathies translate to support of U.S. policy to provide Ukraine with the weapons they need to drive the imperialists out of their country.

    Is that clear enough for you?

    As for both sides engaging in propaganda... I was referring to the rhetoric from both sides surrounding the shelling going on around the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant. Both have been doing it though each side blames the other.
    "They have a lot of stupid people that vote in their primaries. They really do. I'm not really supposed to say that but it's an obvious fact. But when stupid people vote, you know who they nominate? Other stupid people." -- James Carville on the plethora of low-quality GQP candidates in the mid-term election.

  16. #5616
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by heimfried View Post
    I think so and said this yesterday http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...57#post6737857

    One of the two crime scenes is just about 1 Kilometer away from my home.

    Seems the rail service is pretty much up and running again in the meantime.

  17. #5617
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    You should all read the speech by the Ukranian Minister of Defence that Andrew posted above, powerful stuff indeed. I wonder how far it will get into Russia.
    Dwedais "Gwirion", nid "Twp"

  18. #5618
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Henning 4148 View Post
    Seems the rail service is pretty much up and running again in the meantime.
    Yes, the interruption was only about 3 hours. But I think it is meant as a thread that it could be much worse next time.
    Gruß, Günter

  19. #5619
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  20. #5620
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by heimfried View Post
    Yes, the interruption was only about 3 hours. But I think it is meant as a thread that it could be much worse next time.
    Yes, it might. Then again, it might not. The tune of the news is, that it was probably done by German right wing wackos (yeah, got a few of them, some even Putin fans ...) - and since those wackos started shooting at police in the last years, they get a lot of attention. So - chances are that if it was Germans own wackos, they will be behind bars sooner than later.

  21. #5621
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    This is a perfect speech by the Ukrainian Minister Of Defence.

    Not one word wasted.

    https://twitter.com/defenceu/status/...taS0XE4ERA7Y6g

    The list of Generals, Admirals and Air Marshals is because they are all still there. Unlike the Russian commanders.
    One powerful speech.
    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  22. #5622
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    The kind of speech that a victor gives. Though 'victory' over Russia will always be temporary at best. They will try again sometime.
    Vlad's reactions to the bridge damage smacks of a tantrum rather than a thought out reaction.
    Last edited by skuthorp; 10-10-2022 at 06:02 PM.

  23. #5623
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    The indiscriminate bombing is putting pressure on the West to provide even more diverse and advanced arms. Air defence systems.
    Outin is digging a deeper hole. His bombing of Ukrainian non-military targets is providing the cover for the Ukrainians to get weapons that will take out his very-much-military targets.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  24. #5624
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Putin is stuck, he does not have the capability to do what he wants, so he does what he can.
    Yachting, the only sport where you get to be a mechanic, electrician, plumber and carpenter

  25. #5625
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Henning 4148 View Post
    Seems the rail service is pretty much up and running again in the meantime.
    That was a really annoying thing about the Germans- you'd blow up their stuff and they'd come right out and fix it again JayInOz

  26. #5626
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    This is a perfect speech by the Ukrainian Minister Of Defence.

    Not one word wasted.

    https://twitter.com/defenceu/status/...taS0XE4ERA7Y6g

    The list of Generals, Admirals and Air Marshals is because they are all still there. Unlike the Russian commanders.
    Psy-ops.

    'Remembered as rapists...'
    Part of me thinks of the Russian soldier and what they are doing and think they won't give a fig about being remembered as rapists and thieves.
    I watch Russians in the streets in Moscow and elsewhere and you see people who fully believe they are decent 'good guys'. I see people totally sucked in by propaganda, and I think they simply won't believe it.
    Then there are those who know but say nothing or run when the draft notices start to circulate. They'll hide the truth from themselves. They'll start to read Sandtowns posts and believe they were actually the good guys afterall.

    The difference between WWII and this one is there won't be a Nuremburg. The Russians will never come to grips with their savagery. Unless there's complete humiliation and NATO walks into Moscow and de-nuclearises the country. I don't think thats on the cards.
    Though maybe the sanctions bite so hard de-neuclearising might be an incentive to lift them. The Russians will need to look deep inside themselves then. So much of their identity as a power comes from their nuclear arsenal (if it even functions anymore).
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  27. #5627
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    …the quondam scientific and engineering powerhouse of the Soviet Union.
    Thank you for the new word!

  28. #5628
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Thank you for the new word!
    Right? I come here just for the scrabble wins



    I joke. But the IQ level here is obviously mostly sited on the right side of the bell curve. And it’s always a shock when I try to have a conversation in the real world of the type and complexity which is the norm here. That’s why none of us can ever leave.


    I get most of my news and conversation subjects from this site. I am now officially a stalker.

  29. #5629
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    Default

    A little cyber warfare to start off the week.

    https://www.q13fox.com/news/apparent...-websites-down

    Seems that a bunch of US airport web sites went down this morning due to a massive DDOS (distributed denial-of-service) attack, courtesy of you-know-who

    https://youtu.be/3DLxsseirLc

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  30. #5630
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Psy-ops.

    'Remembered as rapists...'
    Part of me thinks of the Russian soldier and what they are doing and think they won't give a fig about being remembered as rapists and thieves.
    I watch Russians in the streets in Moscow and elsewhere and you see people who fully believe they are decent 'good guys'. I see people totally sucked in by propaganda, and I think they simply won't believe it.
    Then there are those who know but say nothing or run when the draft notices start to circulate. They'll hide the truth from themselves. They'll start to read Sandtowns posts and believe they were actually the good guys afterall.

    The difference between WWII and this one is there won't be a Nuremburg. The Russians will never come to grips with their savagery. Unless there's complete humiliation and NATO walks into Moscow and de-nuclearises the country. I don't think thats on the cards.
    Though maybe the sanctions bite so hard de-neuclearising might be an incentive to lift them. The Russians will need to look deep inside themselves then. So much of their identity as a power comes from their nuclear arsenal (if it even functions anymore).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Th...e_(experiment)



    Here, but the Grace of God, go I? It’s impossible to know how we would act inside such a system, as much as we tell ourself that we would know right from wrong.


    I actually have a lot of faith in the youth of Russia, and elsewhere. They tend to have the confidence that comes with youth, and the ignorance of consequences that allow great changes to happen. The “1420” interviews give me hope for Russia’s future. And much as we support the change in Iran, we need to not blame the average Russian, but to support them in that inevitable change as well.

  31. #5631
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    As long as Vlad doesn't close down their future for them………………………..

  32. #5632
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    As long as Vlad doesn't close down their future for them………………………..

    That is where confidence and ignorance of consequence comes in. The last uprisings in Iran resulted in 1500 deaths. This time may be more. Putin will go, the youth want him gone, and we should let the youth know that we are on their side, as we do with Iran, so they know they are not alone.


    Anti Russian language doesn’t help. The Russian people are impressive and resilient people. It’s the regime. We don’t talk about “Germany” in the ‘40’s as the issue, we talk about the nazi’s. We need to separate Russia (a great people) from the regime which has them under their power.

  33. #5633
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    So fuck Putin. I admire the Russians that risk their lives by standing up, either by leaving or by speaking out. It’s easy to talk, here, in a free society. But to do so in a society like Russia (or Iran) is to risk death.

  34. #5634
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Some of us are not OK with that . . .

    This voyage of peace is dedicated to all of you . . . that you may find peace, and/or it find you.

    https://www.facebook.com/watch/GoldenRulePeaceBoat/

    Why I just saw those guys at the furthest north navigable spot on the Mississippi, two weeks ago.

    10483884-95A2-4620-85A0-40FAF43B7FC9.jpg

  35. #5635
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Sailing for peace I'm eating icecream to save the whales. JayInOz

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