Ukraine

[CWSmith]

I've not yet physically met anyone who supports the Russian side, or tries to sidetrack discussions about the war in Ukraine with whatabouts. Living close to Russia might have some bearing on that. I've only met Russian appologists on the internet where it's impossible to know if they are who they say they are.
/Erik

I have a student (American) with strong Russian heritage who has visited relatives there, studied the language, etc. She is afraid to visit there now and condemns Russian actions. I have not even heard of a person saying face-to-face to anyone that Russia is getting a raw deal in the press.

Like they say, "On the internet, nobody knows you are a dog (or is it Russian?)."

[Canoez]

My point is that a less war mongering place would be hard to find, and yet sandtown seems to think it’s inhabited by pro war hawks. He’s been blinded by his own biases. And sometimes when 99 out of 100 people that think the same way you do, for the most part, say you’re wrong, it may be worth reflecting.

Definitely worth reflection.

[Garret]

If you don’t think this place is extremely liberal, with almost exclusively liberal thinking members, you don’t get out much. There are perhaps 3 or 4 members who aren’t liberal thinking. You might get more liberal on a vegan forum but I doubt it.


My point is that a less war mongering place would be hard to find, and yet sandtown seems to think it’s inhabited by pro war hawks. He’s been blinded by his own biases. And sometimes when 99 out of 100 people that think the same way you do, for the most part, say you’re wrong, it may be worth reflecting.

Maybe it's because I live in a pretty liberal state (though the liberalism is modified by some libertarian tendencies) but I don't see the forum as much more liberal than the folks I deal with on a day-to-day basis. One thing I do see is that today's liberals are quieter than today's right-wingers. It's a bit like the silent majority is more liberal nowadays than when the phrase was coined.

Visit Reddit if you want to see a bunch of liberals...

I do agree that we have few truly conservative members here, though there are a number of former Republicans who have turned more liberal, at least partially because of interactions here. I wish we had some more conservative members, but that doesn't seem likely. I would say most here are fairly moderate - though leaning towards the left.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Perun on war in the winter:

https://youtu.be/PI3PpsM3NOI

[sandtown]

I
My point is that a less war mongering place would be hard to find, and yet sandtown seems to think it’s inhabited by pro war hawks. He’s been blinded by his own biases. And sometimes when 99 out of 100 people that think the same way you do, for the most part, say you’re wrong, it may be worth reflecting.

There is such a thing as liberal interventionism - as in John Kerry and HRC's disastrous backing of the Iraq invasion. And lots of liberals supported the Vietnam War as well.

Most of us in Vets For Peace have seen war, and oppose it as best we are able.

We warned you very specifically EIGHT YEARS AGO about this conflict. You did not listen - too busy being librul I guess.

Veterans For Peace resolution in 2015. We saw this war coming.


Resolution 2015-04: Withdraw All NATO Forces from the Russian Borders


Passed (Yes: 696, No: 61)


Whereas, the recent conflict in Ukraine, provoked by NATO’s and the European Union’s
aggressive expansion into Eastern Europe, has escalated into a dangerous confrontation
between the U.S. and its NATO allies on the one hand and, and Russia, on the other, and


Whereas, the tensions engendered by this confrontation have been intensified vastly by the
brandishing of nuclear arms by both sides, and


Whereas, the U.S. and NATO are step by step regressing back to their Cold War policy toward
Russia, and


Whereas, the escalating confrontation between the two major nuclear states seriously
endangers world peace, with the potential of ending in a catastrophic nuclear confrontation.


Therefore Be It Resolved that Veterans For Peace calls for:


No further US/NATO military assistance to Ukraine, whether arms, advisors, or “nonlethal”
aid;


• Removal of all NATO forces from the Russian borders and reversal of NATO decisions
to expand rapid reaction forces and supporting infrastructure in Eastern Europe, and
particularly in states bordering Russia;


• A moratorium on military exercises by all parties in and around Ukraine and European
states bordering Russia;


• A moratorium on exercises and tests of nuclear-armed forces world-wide in order to
reduce tensions and risks of accidental nuclear war;


• Termination of all plans for NATO expansion and deployment of ballistic missile
defenses in Europe;


• Intensive diplomatic efforts by the U.S. Government to reverse the deteriorating U.S.
relationship with Russia, and, to this end, withdrawal of its nuclear weapons from
Europe.

[L.W. Baxter]

well, it's easy to sound the alarm.

lots of people are and have been alarmed about lots of stuff.

that completely abandoning ukraine to its own devices would have made putin's invasion less likely is an extraordinary claim.

in hindsight, holding ukraine closer might have been better. let them into nato in 2008. work on their institutions after their security is assured.

the idea that ukraine could become a full-fledged western democracy while being constantly ****ed with by russia is, in retrospect, simple nonsense. hell, even american democracy damn near can't stand up to russian meddling, and we are oceans away.

[Decourcy]

Once more failing to deal with the here and now, and what is happening.

[WX]

There is such a thing as liberal interventionism - as in John Kerry and HRC's disastrous backing of the Iraq invasion. And lots of liberals supported the Vietnam War as well.

Most of us in Vets For Peace have seen war, and oppose it as best we are able.

We warned you very specifically EIGHT YEARS AGO about this conflict. You did not listen - too busy being librul I guess.

Veterans For Peace resolution in 2015. We saw this war coming.


Resolution 2015-04: Withdraw All NATO Forces from the Russian Borders


Passed (Yes: 696, No: 61)


Whereas, the recent conflict in Ukraine, provoked by NATO’s and the European Union’s
aggressive expansion into Eastern Europe, has escalated into a dangerous confrontation
between the U.S. and its NATO allies on the one hand and, and Russia, on the other, and


Whereas, the tensions engendered by this confrontation have been intensified vastly by the
brandishing of nuclear arms by both sides, and


Whereas, the U.S. and NATO are step by step regressing back to their Cold War policy toward
Russia, and


Whereas, the escalating confrontation between the two major nuclear states seriously
endangers world peace, with the potential of ending in a catastrophic nuclear confrontation.


Therefore Be It Resolved that Veterans For Peace calls for:


No further US/NATO military assistance to Ukraine, whether arms, advisors, or “nonlethal”
aid;


• Removal of all NATO forces from the Russian borders and reversal of NATO decisions
to expand rapid reaction forces and supporting infrastructure in Eastern Europe, and
particularly in states bordering Russia;


• A moratorium on military exercises by all parties in and around Ukraine and European
states bordering Russia;


• A moratorium on exercises and tests of nuclear-armed forces world-wide in order to
reduce tensions and risks of accidental nuclear war;


• Termination of all plans for NATO expansion and deployment of ballistic missile
defenses in Europe;


• Intensive diplomatic efforts by the U.S. Government to reverse the deteriorating U.S.
relationship with Russia, and, to this end, withdrawal of its nuclear weapons from
Europe.

And what was Russia expected to do, respect Ukrainian sovereignty? You know that was not going to happen.

[sandtown]

Once more failing to deal with the here and now, and what is happening.

Contrary to the propaganda of the NYT, this is what is happening.

Many of us do not defend Russia, but are not that wild about Ukraine either.

https://fair.org/home/action-alert-n...ze-in-ukraine/

You likely do not know this, but there was a time when the de-militarization of Eastern Europe seemed like a real possibility . . .

[L.W. Baxter]

Once more failing to deal with the here and now, and what is happening.

and separating his faction from the crowd, between those who were WARNED and those who did the WARNING. those who are AGAINST war and those who LOVE it.

[LeeG]

Perun on war in the winter:

https://youtu.be/PI3PpsM3NOI

I don’t think there’s enough gear to keep me warm sitting in a frozen ditch for hours.

[sandtown]

And what was Russia expected to do, respect Ukrainian sovereignty? You know that was not going to happen.

So you think war was inevitable ?? If that is the case, why pursue peace at all ??

Or maybe there should not have been an avalanche of arms sent to the region . . .

Did that, in part, make the war a self-fulfilling prophesy??

Does VFP trust Russia ?? No. But we do not trust the hyper-power either.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

So you think war was inevitable ?? If that is the case, why pursue peace at all ??

Or maybe there should not have been an avalanche of arms sent to the region . . .

Did that, in part, make the war a self-fulfilling prophesy??

Does VFP trust Russia ?? No. But we do not trust the hyper-power either.

I try not to comment on this nonsense but the « avalanche of arms sent to the region » was some modern hand held anti tank missiles, sent by Britain, so the Russian invasion was our fault.

Only once it was clear that the Ukrainian Armed Forces had seen off the initial Russian assault was any attempt made to seriously supply arms to Ukraine.

[Stiletto]

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Who is that jerk?

[gypsie]

Putin will not comply with the oil cap that kicks in on Monday according to The Kremlin.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/12...e=articleShare

On Tuesday it will be their idea no doubt, crafted to increase demand and make the Russian economy stronger.

[sandtown]

I try not to comment on this nonsense but the « avalanche of arms sent to the region » was some modern hand held anti tank missiles, sent by Britain, so the Russian invasion was our fault. .

That earns you the Fractal Wrongness Award of the week . . .

In fact, per Neo-Con Nuland, "We have invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine."

And all that was BEFORE 2014.

[C. Ross]

In 2014 Russia invaded Crimea.

In 2015 the Vets for Peace group blamed it all on the U.S. and NATO.

So I looked up their position on Syria. Yup, in 2012 the whole problem was caused by America. http://antiwarcommittee.org/2012/12/...tion-in-syria/

Why would anyone take this group seriously?

[skuthorp]

Sandy doesn't post much that is factual, but this is in the field "Whereas, the tensions engendered by this confrontation have been intensified vastly by thebrandishing of nuclear arms by both sides, and"
I don't think that anyone in the west has proposed a nuke option, but authoritarian regimes always need an outside bogey, real or imagined. RW political parties in the west also use fear of 'the other' as an election tactic and of course America has done just that since probablyly the loss of the Maine, and before that it was the ex slaves and the sucessive waves of immigrants that have made the country what it is. That process still continues from the right whilst their industries rely on the labour.
America has needed an outside threat, or if necessary created one, as long as I have been alive. But they can be very selective…...

[Nicholas Carey]

Who is that jerk?

Wile E.Coyote, [Successful/Stable] Genius?

https://youtu.be/h2Mwz9zeu7w

[sandtown]

So I looked up their position on Syria. Yup, in 2012 the whole problem was caused by America. http://antiwarcommittee.org/2012/12/...tion-in-syria/ Why would anyone take this group seriously?

Vets For Peace was correct about Syria, not to mention Libya, not to mention Iraq, not to mention Afghanistan, not to mention Central America, not to mention Vietnam, not to mention Venezuela and Cuba and Bolivia . . .

(Syria's suffering is actually a facet of a larger Sunni-Shia conflict - the Assad regime is Shia. The civil war there was mostly a project of the Sunni Saudis. The US NEVER should have gotten involved. And don't get me started on selling out the Kurds again . . . )

Seriously, what was accomplished by the US intervention in Syria - or any of the others mentioned ???????

I really don't think you know very much.

[skuthorp]

That's the risible nature of American foreign policy Sandy, only 4-8 years long and weathervanes wildly admin. to admin. Its mostly about internal matters, not so much external, and I'm not sure it has a big priority.

[dutchpp]

The ISW Russian offensive campaign assessment, December 4.
https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...ent-december-4

The Russian federation is implementing public Nazi style executions in her modus operandi

Key Takeaways

• Ukrainian officials have indicated that Ukrainian forces will continue counteroffensive operations over the upcoming winter.
• Ukraine’s ability to maintain the military initiative depends on Ukrainian forces continuing counteroffensive operations in the winter of 2022-2023.
• Russian sources reported that Ukrainian forces continued counteroffensive operations in the directions of Kreminna and Svatove.
• Russian forces continued to conduct offensive operations around Bakhmut and Avdiivka.
• Groups of mobilized Russian soldiers continue to disrupt Russian force generation efforts with refusals to fight, insubordination, and defiance.
• Russian forces likely publicly executed residents in occupied Luhansk Oblast on accusations of partisan activity.

[skuthorp]

"Russian forces likely publicly executed residents in occupied Luhansk Oblast on accusations of partisan activity."

Liddice anyone? We know whose manual they are using

[George.]

Therefore Be It Resolved that Veterans For Peace calls for:


No further US/NATO military assistance to Ukraine, whether arms, advisors, or “nonlethal”
aid;


• Removal of all NATO forces from the Russian borders and reversal of NATO decisions
to expand rapid reaction forces and supporting infrastructure in Eastern Europe, and
particularly in states bordering Russia;


• A moratorium on military exercises by all parties in and around Ukraine and European
states bordering Russia;

But Sandtown, if Ukraine gets no further assistance, it will lose and be turned into part of Russia.

Then Poland and Romania will border Russia, so withdraw NATO support from them too?

[WX]

So you think war was inevitable ?? If that is the case, why pursue peace at all ??

Or maybe there should not have been an avalanche of arms sent to the region . . .

Did that, in part, make the war a self-fulfilling prophesy??

Does VFP trust Russia ?? No. But we do not trust the hyper-power either.

I think given Russian inroads into Ukrainian territory, starting with Crimea, this war was inevitable.

[skuthorp]

Ask the Finns, Russia is not to be trusted having retained it's Czarist territorial ambitions and affection for imperial rule. Only the names have changed.

[sandtown]

Ask the Finns, Russia is not to be trusted having retained it's Czarist territorial ambitions and affection for imperial rule. Only the names have changed.

As I have pointed out previously, with evidence, Russia/USSR has a substantially better record of respecting treaties and agreements than the US.

Someone must have given you a good, vigorous brain scrub.

[Decourcy]

As I have pointed out previously, with evidence, Russia/USSR has a substantially better record of respecting treaties and agreements than the US.

Someone must have given you a good, vigorous brain scrub.

You keep saying this crap, but wtf does US inability to follow treaties have to do with what’s going on? So what if Russia breaks less treaties? It’s broken enough that the countries bordering it or being occupied don’t trust them. And that has sfa to do with the US. And your anti-US opinion on the matter carries zero weight.

[Osborne Russell]

But Sandtown, if Ukraine gets no further assistance, it will lose and be turned into part of Russia.

Then Poland and Romania will border Russia, so withdraw NATO support from them too?

Dissolve NATO altogether, logically.

To open negotiations, we could discuss establishing an area of protected Russian rule, east of a line running through Germany to the top of the Adriatic.

[George Jung]

Can't you, now? And as well-read as you and sandy claim to be.

Surprising, isn't it?

*We need a lil' Ruskie troll emoji.....

[Osborne Russell]

So you think war was inevitable ?? If that is the case, why pursue peace at all ??

Why doesn't Russia pursue peace?

Does VFP trust Russia ?? No. But we do not trust the hyper-power either.

OK, VFP doesn't trust either side. How does VFP propose to achieve peace, without some confidence that the two sides would make commitments and honor them? It could only be done by the certainty of massive force in reprisal for breaches. Who's going to provide that?

[Canoez]

Can't you, now? And as well-read as you and sandy claim to be.

Surprising, isn't it?

*We need a lil' Ruskie troll emoji.....

[George Jung]

[L.W. Baxter]

north atlantic treaty organization