Ukraine

[George.]

Russia says the West's refusal to recognise "new territories" seized from Ukraine makes peace talks harder, after President Joe Biden indicated he would be ready to meet Vladimir Putin.

BBC.

Tell us again, what are Ukraine and the West supposed to do to get peace talks going? Should they give Putin "new territories" that he doesn't even fully occupy as a precondition?

[Canoez]

BBC.

Tell us again, what are Ukraine and the West supposed to do to get peace talks going? Should they give Putin "new territories" that he doesn't even fully occupy as a precondition?

Sorta falls into the "well, duh" slot. Why would you negotiate with a terrorist and a thief? It's a little like me trying to negotiate with your bank account.

[sandtown]

Why would you negotiate with a terrorist and a thief?.

Are you talking about Vlad or Dubya Bush ??

[sandtown]

your politico article is an op-ed. not news.

How can one write a news article about something that has not yet happened ?? Articles that do that HAVE TO BE OPINION, or reporting of opinion.

On this thread, there is almost nothing but opinion.

Point not well taken.

Y'all are quite inconsistent in going after everyone who calls for negotiations, while giving Milley a pass.

[Canoez]

Are you talking about Vlad or Dubya Bush ??

What's the thread topic again? You seem to have forgotten.

[L.W. Baxter]

How can one write a news article about something that has not yet happened ?? Articles that do that HAVE TO BE OPINION, or reporting of opinion.

On this thread, there is almost nothing but opinion.

Point not well taken.

Y'all are quite inconsistent in going after everyone who calls for negotiations, while giving Milley a pass.

what has “not yet happened”? milley said what he said, and according to politico people are “scrambling to reassure” ukraine, etc..

also according to politico “the biden administration has to” blah blah blah.

your need to narrate everyone else’s position has you doing contortions. the politico piece you say is “well written”, when the author obviously represents a hawkish position on the war. the very position you want me to represent, which i don’t.

as for milley, he didn’t “call for” negotiations. the salient point he makes is that it is not our call. it’s ukraine’s call, and always has been.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

One problem with hoping that the Russian people rise up and overthrow Putin is that Russians are not given to rising up and overthrowing their ruler.

They have managed it just once, despite severe provocation on other occasions.

Even the English have done better - we’ve done it twice. Our American cousins have done it once.

[WI-Tom]

One problem with hoping that the Russian people rise up and overthrow Putin is that Russians are not given to rising up and overthrowing their ruler.

They have managed it just once, despite severe provocation on other occasions.

Even the English have done better - we’ve done it twice. Our American cousins have done it once.

Well, "we" tried again last January. "We" ought to get some credit for the attempt, at least.

Tom

[Canoeyawl]

Wait, this General Milley?
The general who tramped across Pennsylvania ave to help tfg hold up a bible?
The general who threatened by his action to use US military against the black lives matter protests?


86D8F0DB-4AF7-4AC7-8619-818C892E0068.jpg

[Osborne Russell]

Perhaps he was under orders.

[sandtown]

Wait, this General Milley?
The general who tramped across Pennsylvania ave to help tfg hold up a bible?
The general who threatened by his action to use US military against the black lives matter protests?

He apologized for the "tramp", as well he should have.

He also refused the Drumph's appeal to involve the military in the auto-golpe (though yeah, he should have loudly blown the whistle).

So typical of your side to launch personal attacks against those with whom you disagree.

You are not close to being capable of dealing with his arguments.

[Canoeyawl]

A general hopefully would be smart enough not to have to apologize for anything

So typical of your side to launch personal attacks against those with whom you disagree.

You are not close to being capable of dealing with his arguments.

Feeling a little insecure this morning, perhaps you have picked the wrong side?

[sandtown]

My normal civility starts to wear thin when your side launches personal attacks . .

though I must admit that it is not as bad as 2003 when we were threatened with violence . .

not as bad as 2003 yet, I should say.

[sandtown]

Speaking of The Bomb, Hiroshima, Russia and more . . . .

here is some unknown, untaught and politically incorrect history.

https://covertactionmagazine.com/202...eid=719bc883fd

[Nicholas Carey]

Byelorussian volunteer heavy weapons team driving Ma Deuce for Ukraine.

https://youtu.be/Ji-FterkEkI

[Nicholas Carey]

Also, this is interesting. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/21/w...war-river.html

Ukrainian commandos crossing the river Dnipro to go into Indian Country.

The most interesting thing is this. Here, the commando is praying before heading across the river. She's code-named "Vita". She and her husband are Russian and fighting for Ukraine. Vita, according to the New York Times has "an almost mythical renown for surviving close combat with Russian troops."

But that tattoo on her hand -- that looks to be a pre-christian Latvian symbol, though I'd have to check with my aunts as to its meaning.

I am interested in her story.

[dutchpp]

The ISW Russian offensive campaign assessment, December 2.
https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...ent-december-2

Key Takeaways

• Russia is attempting to capitalize on the Western desire for negotiations to create a dynamic in which Western officials feel obliged to make preemptive concessions to lure Russia to the table.
• Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov reiterated as the basis for negotiations precisely the same demands that the Russian Foreign Ministry had made before the February 24 invasion, and Kremlin Spokesperson Dmitrii Peskov added the further demand that the West recognize Russia’s annexation of Ukrainian territory.
• Russian forces still pose a threat to Ukrainian energy infrastructure despite the success of Ukrainian air defenses.
• Additional Western air defense systems are prompting the Russian pro-war community to question the Russian air campaign against Ukrainian infrastructure.
• Russian officials are setting conditions to negotiate the demilitarization of the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant (ZNPP), an agreement upon which Russia would likely renege and that would not eliminate or diminish the ongoing threat to the ZNPP.
• Ukrainian forces made localized breakthroughs southwest and northwest of Kreminna.
• Russian forces continued to make minimal advances in the Bakhmut area and conduct offensive operations in the Avdiivka–Donetsk City area.
• Russian forces may be struggling to properly allocate and deploy forces in rear areas in southern Ukraine due to Ukrainian strikes.
• Poor logistics, unruly mobilized personnel, and domestic protests continue to prevent the Kremlin from achieving the goals of partial mobilization.
• Russian President Vladimir Putin continues to attempt to mask military development projects in occupied territories for no obvious reason.

[George.]

Why would a commando with a tattoo let her picture be taken, unmasked, right before going behind the lines?

[George.]

• Russia is attempting to capitalize on the Western desire for negotiations to create a dynamic in which Western officials feel obliged to make preemptive concessions to lure Russia to the table.
• Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov reiterated as the basis for negotiations precisely the same demands that the Russian Foreign Ministry had made before the February 24 invasion, and Kremlin Spokesperson Dmitrii Peskov added the further demand that the West recognize Russia’s annexation of Ukrainian territory.

Still waiting for Sandtown to explain how Ukraine and the West are supposed to start negotiations given those conditions.

[WX]

Still waiting for Sandtown to explain how Ukraine and the West are supposed to start negotiations given those conditions.

I've asked him the same question...no answer.

[Vadim 68]

Why would a commando with a tattoo let her picture be taken, unmasked, right before going behind the lines?

Wrong question.

Why is the NYT PUBLISHING A PHOTO of a commando with a tattoo and her face uncovered, and why would anyone post it to social or other media given the paranoia of Russian trolls?

How will people feel if the next time you see that hand is connected to a charred corpse?

[AdB]

Why would a commando with a tattoo let her picture be taken, unmasked, right before going behind the lines?

Because Ukraine needs heroes as much as needs victories? Besides, it's a bit late to be secretive about her identity, every Russian sniper in or around Ukraine probably has her picture on his nightstand by now.

[StevenBauer]

Swedish companies welding up field stoves to send to Ukraine:

https://www-svt-se.translate.goog/ny..._x_tr_pto=wapp

[sandtown]

Still waiting for Sandtown to explain how Ukraine and the West are supposed to start negotiations given those conditions.

There are many possibilities - you lack imagination.

And I do not owe you any sort of explanation.

Why don't you ask Gen Milley ??

[ERGR]

It seems like things once again are starting to happen in Ukraine. It's been rather static for a while, with daily Russian losses of 500 - 700 KIA, mostly due to suicidal attacks towards Bakhmut and Ukrain artillery against troop concentrations but not much territory changing hands.
It's now rather cold at the Luhansk front and ground frost is setting in. At the same time the Ukrainians have taken control over the highway between Swatove and Kreminna and suburbs to Kreminna. This indicates a minor breakthrough in the area, that could develop to a major breakthrough now that the mud hardens.
Ukraine is working hard to set the conditions for meaningful peace negotiations. The Russians first need to be forced out of Ukraine as defined by the pre 2014 borders.
/Erik

[johnw]

It seems like things once again are starting to happen in Ukraine. It's been rather static for a while, with daily Russian losses of 500 - 700 KIA, mostly due to suicidal attacks towards Bakhmut and Ukrain artillery against troop concentrations but not much territory changing hands.
It's now rather cold at the Luhansk front and ground frost is setting in. At the same time the Ukrainians have taken control over the highway between Swatove and Kreminna and suburbs to Kreminna. This indicates a minor breakthrough in the area, that could develop to a major breakthrough now that the mud hardens.
Ukraine is working hard to set the conditions for meaningful peace negotiations. The Russians first need to be forced out of Ukraine as defined by the pre 2014 borders.
/Erik

Saw some satellite photos the other day that seemed to show that the Russians have mostly dug in to protect strategic roads. Waiting until the ground freezes would be the obvious response, allowing UK forces to bypass and cut off such defensive positions.


eEdited to add:

Here's the story and the images:

https://www.businessinsider.com/sate...kraine-2022-12

[Hallam]

There is a story doing the rounds in Oz media from posts on a Telegram channel that Putin fell down some stairs and soiled himself due to cancer he is suffering from. Newsweek mentions it as well:
( has this been mentioned here? )

Did Putin Fall Down the Stairs and Soil Himself? What We Know

[epoxyboy]

https://kyivindependent.com/news-feed/ukraines-chief-negotiator-says-russia-must-withdraw-from-ukraine-before-starting-talks

Ukraine's chief negotiator says Russia must withdraw from Ukraine before starting talks

by The Kyiv Independent news deskDecember 3, 2022 11:18 pm
Share

Lawmaker David Arakhamia, head of the governing Servant of the People faction and Ukraine's chief negotiator with Russia, said Kyiv is ready to provide Russia with security guarantees after it withdraws its troops from Ukraine, pays reparations, brings all war criminals to justice, and voluntarily surrenders nuclear weapons.
When Russia does that, “we are ready to sit at the negotiating table and talk about security guarantees,” Arakhamia said.

[Decourcy]

There are many possibilities - you lack imagination.

And I do not owe you any sort of explanation.

Why don't you ask Gen Milley ??

Many possibilities and yet you cannot formulate one.

You don’t owe any sort of explanation, but failing to do so means you are simply bleating

Why don’t you stop asking others to search for your arguments

Here you are, on likely one of the most liberal forums on the internet, and yet you find yourself at odds and call members “pro war”. You suffer from a form of blindness caused by your enthusiasm for your cause.

[dutchpp]

The ISW Russian offensive campaign assessment, December 3.
https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...ent-december-3

Key Takeaways

• Ukrainian forces reportedly reached the east (left) bank of the Dnipro River across from Kherson City.
• French President Emmanuel Macron amplified Russian information operations about the need for NATO to consider “security guarantees” to be given to Russia during putative negotiations in a televised interview on December 3.
• Conditions in eastern Ukraine are likely becoming more conducive to a higher pace of operations as winter sets in.
• The Russian and Belarusian Ministers of Defense met in Minsk likely to further strengthen bilateral security ties between Russia and Belarus.
• Ukrainian forces likely continue to advance northwest of Kreminna.
• Russian forces continued ground attacks around Bakhmut, in the Avdiivka-Donetsk City area, and in western Donetsk and eastern Zaporizhia oblasts.
• Russian authorities reportedly evacuated Russian collaborators from Oleshky.
• The Russian National Guard’s (Rosgvardia) Organizational and Staff Department confirmed that mobilization continues despite Russian President Vladimir Putin’s announcement of the formal end of partial mobilization on October 31.
• Russian authorities are continuing to use judicial measures to consolidate administrative control of occupied territories.

[WI-Tom]

Here you are, on likely one of the most liberal forums on the internet, and yet you find yourself at odds and call members “pro war”. You suffer from a form of blindness caused by your enthusiasm for your cause.

Hmm...

Let's assume there are 100 discussion forums, ranked in order from "most liberal" (#1) to "least liberal (#100). You could describe #99 as "one of the 99 most liberal forums on the Internet" and you wouldn't be wrong.

So, I guess, in that sense, you're correct. Congratulations!

Tom

[George.]

There are many possibilities - you lack imagination.

And I do not owe you any sort of explanation.

Why don't you ask Gen Milley ??

That's your response?

All your posts are full of questions for others. Even this one. But when asked a question, you become rude to evade it.

Apparently it is you who lack imagination and can't come up with a possibility to start negotiations.

[George.]

Here you are, on likely one of the most liberal forums on the internet, and yet you find yourself at odds and call members “pro war”.

If Sandtown really is who he claims to be, he is a singularly poor campaigner for peace. He manages to antagonize the very people he would have to persuade for his cause to get any traction.

OTOH, sowing dissent and acrimony in the West is Putin's best hope for winning the war. If I were Putin I would fund as many Sandtowns as I could find, perhaps through front men to keep them innocent.

[ERGR]

I've not yet physically met anyone who supports the Russian side, or tries to sidetrack discussions about the war in Ukraine with whatabouts. Living close to Russia might have some bearing on that. I've only met Russian appologists on the internet where it's impossible to know if they are who they say they are.
/Erik

[Decourcy]

Hmm...

Let's assume there are 100 discussion forums, ranked in order from "most liberal" (#1) to "least liberal (#100). You could describe #99 as "one of the 99 most liberal forums on the Internet" and you wouldn't be wrong.

So, I guess, in that sense, you're correct. Congratulations!

Tom

If you don’t think this place is extremely liberal, with almost exclusively liberal thinking members, you don’t get out much. There are perhaps 3 or 4 members who aren’t liberal thinking. You might get more liberal on a vegan forum but I doubt it.


My point is that a less war mongering place would be hard to find, and yet sandtown seems to think it’s inhabited by pro war hawks. He’s been blinded by his own biases. And sometimes when 99 out of 100 people that think the same way you do, for the most part, say you’re wrong, it may be worth reflecting.