Page 286 of 363 FirstFirst ... 186236276285286287296336 ... LastLast
Results 9,976 to 10,010 of 12678

Thread: Ukraine

  1. #9976
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Mukilteo, WA
    Posts
    3,859

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    there were reports of a counterattack and even encirclement on the northern front, but now it's getting clear that either it failed or never was anything but a faux operation
    Is that true? The latest reports I see (video dispatches from soldiers in bakhmut) seem very dire. The Russians have been gaining for weeks and have nearly closed the noose around the city, advancing with air cover and heavy shelling. Time to pull back in my non expert opinion. I hear reports of significant shortages, particularly in morter shells, which are key to defense. I suspect major loss of life has been underway for weeks now. There is currently no safe road route in or out.

    Get all those new tanks there asap!

  2. #9977
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Topeka, KS
    Posts
    2,205

    Default Re: Ukraine

    [QUOTE=J.

    Get all those new tanks there asap![/QUOTE]

    In the Bakhmut videos I am seeing, old Soviet tanks are shooting across the street/promenade/plaza, etc. at the apartment blocks across from them floor by floor, just like the final months of WWII Europe in built up cities reduced to ruins. 20 or 40 modern tanks can't change that. They are better at fire and maneuver in open terrain especially defending in depth.

    Urban and siege warfare attrition is what the Ukrainian massing on the enemy "small unit tactics" that kept irritating the trainers my guard unit sent in the 1990's is a remnant of. Its what won Stalingrad. We can see the terrible cost they are paying and think they should do things the way NATO trains with expansive maneuver and deception while air superiority picks off the enemy forces as they expose themselves, but they don't have the air superiority or the technology. And NATO hasn't been real about full scale military combat for more than 20 years. Even West Germany during the Cold War was not realistic about how much of Germany the US forces would have retreated through engaging Soviet Union's 6 to 1 advantage in tanks to utilize "maneuver and more accurate fire". Ukraine is mostly done pulling back or regrouping. An efficient way of "closing with the enemy" is having them come to you. Attrition has its own dynamics in the end.

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ig-2023-03-01/

    If we can learn how bad this will end up being, child soldiers and all, maybe we will know not to do it to Poland.
    Last edited by Landrith; 02-28-2023 at 09:58 PM.

  3. #9978
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Between Bourgeoisie and Proletariat - Australia
    Posts
    7,875

    Default Re: Ukraine

    The tv presenter who barged into a news room with an anti war sign at the beginning of the war, has been smuggled into France. She believes Ukraine must have total victory - in order to save Russia.

    https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/art...6015162_7.html


    Ovsyannikova said she lives in the hope of one day seeing Russia's leaders face a war crimes tribunal in The Hague. "I think this regime is living its last days but I don't know how long this war and regime will last. But it must end with a total victory for Ukraine or there won't be any future for Russia," she said.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  4. #9979
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Between Bourgeoisie and Proletariat - Australia
    Posts
    7,875

    Default Re: Ukraine

    My observation in Bahkmut is a tug of war slowly moving in Russias favour. Overall they have advanced over the last six months but it's been grinding and they pay heavily. They lost some ground to the south a couple of weeks ago when they tried to close off a supply line. Looks like they ran short of artillery shells, maybe, and couldn't maintain their rolling artillery followed by infantry approach.
    They're also out of prisoners to mop up artillery and mines. Now actual soldiers have to do it. That might explain apparent slips in territory from counter attacks recently.

    I would not be surprised to hear that Bahkmut accounts for 50% of Russias war casualties in this war so far.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  5. #9980
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Topeka, KS
    Posts
    2,205

    Default Re: Ukraine

    "Pro-Russian official claims Bakhmut will fall: Russian forces control routes into Bakhmut and it’s only a matter of time until the city falls into Russian hands, according to a pro-Russian official. German-made Leopard tanks have been spotted near Bakhmut, added the official, but "muddy weather" means it will be "difficult for heavy vehicles like the Leopard to move."

    https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news...cfd7bf95f8318b

    their source probably is

    "German Leopard tanks spotted near Bakhmut

    28.02.2023 14:18
    Incidents
    Germany's Leopard tanks were spotted in the area near the city of Bakhmut, the Donetsk region, Yan Gagin, advisor to the Acting Head of the Donetsk People's Republic said, the Rossiya TV channel reports.

    German Leopard tanks spotted near Bakhmut
    Slushy soil in the region makes it difficult for heavy vehicles like the Leopard to move, Gagin said.

    In late January, a number of countries announced the supplies of several models of tanks to Ukraine such as Leopard (Germany), Challenger (the UK) and Abrams (the USA).

    On February 26, Yevgeny Prigozhin, the founder of PMC Wagner, said that there were no fights with the Leopards so far.

    "We have information that the Leopards arrive at Chasov Yar [near Bakhmut], but we have not encountered them on the battlefield yet," Prigozhin said."

    https://english.pravda.ru/news/hotsp...khmut_leopard/

  6. #9981
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    3,067

    Default Re: Ukraine

    The ISW Russian offensive campaign assessment, February 28.
    https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...bruary-28-2023

    Key Takeaways

    • Russian authorities appear to be escalating their promotion of false flag information operations in an effort to distract from their lack of tangible battlefield gains and slow down the provision of Western tanks and other aid in advance of expected Ukrainian counter-offensives.
    • US Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Colin Kahl stated that the US has no indication that Russian forces will use nuclear weapons in Ukraine.
    • Russian President Vladimir Putin emphasized the role of the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) in supporting the war in Ukraine during an address to the FSB board.
    • The Kremlin and Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko are likely attempting to intensify efforts to falsely portray Russia as open to negotiations to end its war in Ukraine.
    • Lukashenko may facilitate Sino-Russian sanctions evasion schemes during his official trip to Beijing, China from February 28 to March 2.
    • Russian forces conducted limited ground attacks near Svatove and Kreminna and likely made limited advances north of Kreminna.
    • Russian forces made tactical gains in northern Bakhmut and continued ground attacks around Bakhmut and in the Avdiivka-Donetsk City area.
    • Ukrainian officials continue to report potential Russian preparations for renewed offensive operations in Zaporizhia and Kherson oblasts, though ISW has not observed indicators that Russian forces plan to renew offensive operations in these directions.
    • Armenian authorities detained a Russian citizen in Yerevan for an act of protest against the war in Ukraine committed in Moscow in July 2022.
    • Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky enacted a Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council decision to sanction 109 Russian citizens involved in the forced deportation of Ukrainian children.

  7. #9982
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Mukilteo, WA
    Posts
    3,859

    Default Re: Ukraine

    I don't know if I believe that the leopards are at Bakhmut yet, as russian sources claimed a week ago that they killed several and then showed some old pictures from syria. But maybe they are, it will be likely soon enough at any rate.

    I'm no soldier, but I do know a bit of history. In Stalingrad, the defenders won the battle, but only because massive reinforecements were gathering in the rear areas and they then encircled the entire attacking force.

    Perhaps we will see that again. It would be poetic. I thought Bakhmut was going to fall weeks ago, and I was wrong. Maybe I'm wrong again, but it looks very bad.

  8. #9983
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    17,647

    Default Re: Ukraine

    It doesn't matter if Russia takes Bakhmut or not. What matters is how much the battle costs each side, and how many troops are pinned down there if there is an offensive elsewhere.

  9. #9984
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    17,647

    Default Re: Ukraine

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/01/w...sia-tanks.html

    [COLOR=var(--color-content-secondary,#363636)]A three-week battle on a plain near the coal-mining town of Vuhledar in southern Ukraine produced what Ukrainian officials say was the biggest tank battle of the war so far, and a stinging setback for the Russians.[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=var(--color-content-secondary,#363636)]In the extended battle, both sides sent tanks into the fray, rumbling over dirt roads and maneuvering around tree lines, with the Russians thrusting forward in columns and the Ukrainians maneuvering defensively, firing from a distance or from hiding places as Russian columns came into their sights.[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=var(--color-content-secondary,#363636)]When it was over, not only had Russia failed to capture Vuhledar, but it also had made the same mistake that cost Moscow hundreds of tanks earlier in the war: advancing columns into ambushes.[/COLOR]

  10. #9985
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    17,647

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Why oh why does the forum software stick that COLOR crap into my quotes from the NYT...

  11. #9986
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    17,647

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Blown up on mines, hit with artillery or obliterated by anti-tank missiles, the charred hulks of Russian armored vehicles now litter farm fields all about Vuhledar, according to Ukrainian military drone footage. Ukraine’s military said Russia had lost at least 130 tanks and armored personnel carriers in the battle. That figure could not be independently verified. Ukraine does not disclose how many weapons it loses.


    “We studied the roads they used, then hid and waited” to shoot in ambushes, Sergeant Knignitsky said.


  12. #9987
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    17,647

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Lack of expertise also bedeviled the Russians. Many of their most elite units had been left in shambles from earlier fighting. Their spots were filled with newly conscripted soldiers, unschooled in Ukraine’s tactics for ambushing columns. In one indication that Russia is running short of experienced tank commanders, Ukrainian soldiers said they captured a medic who had been reassigned to operate a tank.

    Ambushes have been Ukraine’s signature tactic against Russian armored columns since the early days of the war. Working from a bunker in Vuhledar, Lieutenant Bayak spotted the first column of about 15 tanks and armored personnel carriers approaching on a video feed from a drone.


    “We were ready,” he said. “We knew something like this would happen.”


    They had prepared a kill zone farther along a dirt road that the tanks were rumbling down. The commander needed only to give an order over the radio — “To battle!” — Lieutenant Bayak said.


    Anti-tank teams hiding in tree lines along the fields, and armed with American infrared-guided Javelins and Ukrainian laser-guided Stugna-P missiles, powered up their weapons. Farther away, artillery batteries were ready. The dirt road had been left free of mines, while the fields all about were seeded with them, so as to entice the Russians to advance while preventing tanks from turning around once the trap was sprung.

  13. #9988
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    17,647

    Default Re: Ukraine

    figured it out!

    The column of tanks becomes most vulnerable, Lieutenant Bayak said, after the shooting starts and drivers panic and try to turn around — by driving onto the mine-laden shoulder of the road. Blown-up vehicles then act as impediments, slowing or stalling the column. At that point, Ukrainian artillery opens fire, blowing up more armor and killing soldiers who clamber out of disabled machines. A scene of chaos and explosions ensues, the lieutenant said.


    Russian commanders have sent armored columns forward for a lack of other options against Ukraine’s well-fortified positions, however costly the tactic, he said.


    Over about three weeks of the tank battle, repeated Russian armored assaults floundered. In one instance, Ukrainian commanders called in a strike by HIMARS guided rockets; they are usually used on stationary targets like ammunition depots or barracks, but also proved effective against a stationary tank column.


    The Ukrainians also fired with American M777 and French Caesar howitzers, as well as other Western-provided weaponry such as the Javelins.

  14. #9989
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Poznań, Poland
    Posts
    3,754

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Why oh why does the forum software stick that COLOR crap into my quotes from the NYT...
    the forum rich text editor has a 'remove formatting' button, second to the left.
    WszystekPoTrochu's signature available only for premium forum users.

  15. #9990
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,201

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Putin&co are trying their best to suppress all form of critisism within Russia.
    https://meduza.io/en/news/2023/03/01...ture-at-school
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

  16. #9991
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    North Shore, Auckland, NZ
    Posts
    3,615

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Why oh why does the forum software stick that COLOR crap into my quotes from the NYT...
    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    the forum rich text editor has a 'remove formatting' button, second to the left.
    The easiest way to get a C&P in a post is to copy the text from the source, click the Quote icon on the Quick Reply toolbar (right-most icon on my screen) and then place your cursor between the start and end quote tags, right click and choose "Paste as plain text". You don't need to do the quote thing, but it does then make it clear which parts of the post are your own words and which have come from another source.

    Like this:

    From the Guardian, China is already providing help to Russia in the disinformation war, it would seem:

    The west has been slow to respond to China spending billions globally to spread poisonous disinformation, including messaging that is completely aligned with Russia on Ukraine, a US special envoy has claimed.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ial-envoy-says
    'When I leave I don't know what I'm hoping to find. When I leave I don't know what I'm leaving behind...'

  17. #9992
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Between Bourgeoisie and Proletariat - Australia
    Posts
    7,875

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Lack of expertise also bedeviled the Russians. Many of their most elite units had been left in shambles from earlier fighting. Their spots were filled with newly conscripted soldiers, unschooled in Ukraine’s tactics for ambushing columns. In one indication that Russia is running short of experienced tank commanders, Ukrainian soldiers said they captured a medic who had been reassigned to operate a tank.

    Ambushes have been Ukraine’s signature tactic against Russian armored columns since the early days of the war. Working from a bunker in Vuhledar, Lieutenant Bayak spotted the first column of about 15 tanks and armored personnel carriers approaching on a video feed from a drone.


    “We were ready,” he said. “We knew something like this would happen.”


    They had prepared a kill zone farther along a dirt road that the tanks were rumbling down. The commander needed only to give an order over the radio — “To battle!” — Lieutenant Bayak said.


    Anti-tank teams hiding in tree lines along the fields, and armed with American infrared-guided Javelins and Ukrainian laser-guided Stugna-P missiles, powered up their weapons. Farther away, artillery batteries were ready. The dirt road had been left free of mines, while the fields all about were seeded with them, so as to entice the Russians to advance while preventing tanks from turning around once the trap was sprung.
    it's like something from the Commando comics I used to read as a kid.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  18. #9993
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    72,029

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Whilst China is the major beneficiary of the phoney war in Europe, they would not want Russia to lose the fight in Ukraine because of precedent. The longer it continues the more China is advantaged.

  19. #9994
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA USA
    Posts
    17,840

    Default Re: Ukraine

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...te-say-lawyers

    Kherson torture centres were planned by Russian state, say lawyers

    Investigators say sites set up during occupation of Ukrainian city were part of ‘calculated plan to terrorise’ locals

    Isobel Koshiw


    Inside a youth detention facility in Kherson that Ukrainian investigators said was used as a 'torture room' by occupying Russian forces, in November 2022. Photograph: Alessio Mamo/The Guardian

    Evidence collected from Kherson in southern Ukraine shows Russian torture centres were not “random” but instead planned and directly financed by the Russian state, according to a team of Ukrainian and international lawyers headed by a UK barrister.

    The city was under Russian control for eight months, from 2 March last year until Ukrainian forces entered the city on 11 November.

    The lawyers, called the Mobile Justice Team, said on Thursday they had investigated 20 torture chambers in Kherson and concluded they were part of a “calculated plan to terrorise, subjugate and eliminate Ukrainian resistance and destroy Ukrainian identity”.

    The evidence collected by Ukrainian prosecutors and analysed by the Mobile Justice Team includes plans used by Vladimir Putin’s occupying forces to establish, manage and finance the 20 torture centres in Kherson.

    “The mass torture chambers, financed by the Russian state, are not random but rather part of a carefully thought-out and financed blueprint with a clear objective to eliminate Ukrainian national and cultural identity,” said the British barrister Wayne Jordash, who is leading the team.

    More than 1,000 survivors have submitted evidence and more than 400 people have vanished from Kherson, the lawyers say.

    The centres were run by the Russian security services, the FSB, as well as the Russian prison service and local collaborators, according to the lawyers, and were designed to subjugate, re-educate or kill Ukrainian civic leaders and ordinary dissenters.

    The prisoners included anyone who had a connection to the Ukrainian state or Ukrainian civil society, such as activists, journalists, civil servants and teachers. Other victims said they were stopped randomly on the street and then detained for allegedly having “pro-Ukrainian” material on their phones.

    The prisoners – male and female – were subject to physical beatings, electric shock torture and waterboarding. They were forced to learn and recite pro-Russian slogans, poems and songs, say the team.

    It is unclear whether the more than 400 people who have disappeared were killed during the occupation or have been taken to Russia.

    “Putin’s plan is to occupy Ukraine, subjugate the Ukrainian population to Russian rule and destroy Ukrainian identity. This plan is becoming clearer as the evidence of war crimes proliferates and as our investigations progress,” Jordash said.

    He set up the Mobile Justice Team in May to help the Ukrainian prosecutor general’s office investigate and prosecute alleged Russian war criminals. It is funded by the UK Foreign Office, the EU and the US state department and aims to fill a void in Ukraine’s national prosecution service through training and mentorship. Before the invasion, Ukraine had 8,000 prosecutors but none with specialised war crimes experience.

    One of the torture facilities that the team examined was in the basement of an office block, and others were repurposed detention facilities, according to the team.

    Reporters for the Guardian were among dozens of journalists who saw and heard evidence of torture immediately after the city was freed.

    In November, the Guardian visited one juvenile detention centre and spoke to victims who had been kept there. The victims and witnesses who lived around the centre said they never saw the faces of the men who ran the centre as they wore balaclavas, and they dressed head to toe in black.

    Three neighbours and two local shopkeepers outside the repurposed juvenile detention centre said they started hearing screams about six weeks after they saw Russian soldiers take over the building. The witnesses said they started to see people being taken in with bags on their heads, and some bodies being removed.

    “They only beat me a little, I was lucky, but my cellmates were heavily beaten,” said Zhenia Dremo in November. Dermo described how Russian soldiers “attached one electro-rod to his [cellmate’s] balls and the other to his penis. Then for two hours I would sit there and listen to him scream.”

    Another man, Roma, whom the Guardian also interviewed, was accused by the Russians of taking part in underground resistance activities during the occupation. Roma said the Russians attached rods to his testicles but then decided not to switch on the electrical charge.

    But he said his cellmates, some of whom were kept in detention for the entire eight months of occupation, were subjected to electric shocks. “There was no life in their eyes, these were broken people,” Roma said.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  20. #9995
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    72,029

    Default Re: Ukraine

    They have read the Nazi occupation manuals thoroughly and learned well. Not that a perusal of Stalinist era purges in Ukraine would not have sufficed.

  21. #9996
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    3,067

    Default Re: Ukraine

    The ISW Russian offensive campaign assessment, March 1.
    https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...t-march-1-2023

    Key Takeaways

    • The Kremlin may leverage an amendment to Russia’s Criminal Code increasing punishments for "discrediting" the war in Ukraine to promote further self-censorship measures among the critical ultranationalist community, prompting pushback from Wagner financier Yevgeny Prigozhin and prominent milbloggers.
    • A New York Times (NYT) investigation into catastrophic Russian losses during the recent Russian offensive near Vuhledar indicates the Russian military remains unable to rapidly fix the endemic challenges posed by severe personnel and equipment losses.
    • Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko and Chinese President Xi Jinping signed a package of 16 documents that may facilitate Russian sanctions evasion by channeling Chinese aid to Russia through Belarus.
    • US officials continue to report that Ukrainian forces are properly using Western-provided weapons in Ukraine.
    • Russian and occupation authorities may be attempting to further limit the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) presence at the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant (ZNPP) to compel the de facto recognition of Russian ownership of the plant.
    • Politico reported that Serbian President Aleksandar Vučić is seemingly reconsidering Serbia’s close ties to Russia during the war in Ukraine, spurred in part by ongoing Wagner Group recruitment and subversion efforts in Serbia.
    • Russian forces are fortifying positions on the international border in Belgorod Oblast.
    • Russian forces advanced within Bakhmut and continued ground attacks around Bakhmut and in the Avdiivka-Donetsk City area.
    • Russian forces continued to conduct offensive operations on the Kupyansk-Svatove-Kreminna line.
    • Russian forces continue defensive operations in southern Ukraine.
    • Russian occupation authorities continue to struggle with the administrative management of occupied areas.

  22. #9997
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Poznań, Poland
    Posts
    3,754

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    They have read the Nazi occupation manuals thoroughly and learned well. Not that a perusal of Stalinist era purges in Ukraine would not have sufficed.
    I firmly protest. Torture chambers for non-interrogation purposes were not German specialty during WW2, this is a common commie thing, the closer to moscow the more common it got.
    WszystekPoTrochu's signature available only for premium forum users.

  23. #9998
    Join Date
    Jan 2023
    Location
    sweden
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    . Torture chambers for non-interrogation purposes were not German specialty during WW2, this is a common commie thing, the closer to moscow the more common it got.
    I do believe in recent time, the inmates of Abu Gharib and Guantanamo would have much to say about torture and who does it, and nothing to do with commies.

    Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse - Wikipedia

    20 Years of US Torture – and Counting | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org)

    Does not in any way justify what may be going on in Ukraine, by anyone. Human right abuses only happen when people are "de-humanized".

  24. #9999
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,201

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Johan R View Post
    I do believe in recent time, the inmates of Abu Gharib and Guantanamo would have much to say about torture and who does it, and nothing to do with commies.

    Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse - Wikipedia

    20 Years of US Torture – and Counting | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org)

    Does not in any way justify what may be going on in Ukraine, by anyone. Human right abuses only happen when people are "de-humanized".
    You changed strategy. Now you are a Russian propagandist under cover. Sneaking whataboutism instead of honest propagandism.
    By the way I recently learned why you are so eager to keep beating a dead horse. Propagandist salaries are very high in Russia and admitting defeat would could put you out of a job.
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

  25. #10000
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,201

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    I firmly protest. Torture chambers for non-interrogation purposes were not German specialty during WW2, this is a common commie thing, the closer to moscow the more common it got.
    They are a totalitarian thing trhroughout the ages. Just as established among German nazis as among Russian communists dusing the last war as among Russian putinists today.
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

  26. #10001
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hills of Vermont, USA
    Posts
    46,671

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    I firmly protest. Torture chambers for non-interrogation purposes were not German specialty during WW2, this is a common commie thing, the closer to moscow the more common it got.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johan R View Post
    I do believe in recent time, the inmates of Abu Gharib and Guantanamo would have much to say about torture and who does it, and nothing to do with commies.

    Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse - Wikipedia

    20 Years of US Torture – and Counting | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org)

    Does not in any way justify what may be going on in Ukraine, by anyone. Human right abuses only happen when people are "de-humanized".
    If you're going to deflect - at least read the posts. He said German, you bring up the US. In case you're not aware, they are different countries & have been for some time.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  27. #10002
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    3,242

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by heimlaga View Post
    You changed strategy. Now you are a Russian propagandist .
    All you EVER do is attack the character of those with whom you disagree.

  28. #10003
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    3,242

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    If you're going to deflect - at least read the posts. .
    According to those Rooskie Putin-loving Bots at the US state dept.,

    the Ukr side has also been guilty of terrible human rights abuses . . . .

  29. #10004
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hills of Vermont, USA
    Posts
    46,671

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    According to those Rooskie Putin-loving Bots at the US state dept.,

    the Ukr side has also been guilty of terrible human rights abuses . . . .
    So - to use a method you like - what about the US? We have committed all sorts of abuses, including torture. We're right between Mexico & Saudi Arabia: https://humanrightsmeasurement.org/t...n-rights-data/
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  30. #10005
    Join Date
    Jan 2023
    Location
    sweden
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    If you're going to deflect - at least read the posts. He said German, you bring up the US. In case you're not aware, they are different countries & have been for some time.
    If you are going to deflect, at least read the post, he also said "a common commie".

  31. #10006
    Join Date
    Jan 2023
    Location
    sweden
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by heimlaga View Post
    You changed strategy. Now you are a Russian propagandist under cover.
    You have not changed yours, still a lying, ill-informed, incompetent loud mouth with a grudge about something only you understand. Poor you.

  32. #10007
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    36,488

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    All you EVER do is attack the character of those with whom you disagree.
    You may be confusing him with our russian:

    Quote Originally Posted by Johan R View Post
    You have not changed yours, still a lying, ill-informed, incompetent loud mouth with a grudge about something only you understand. Poor you.

  33. #10008
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    3,242

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    So - to use a method you like - what about the US?/
    Hey, that is good stuff !! I'll look at it more carefully later . .

    but the thread drift seems to be more about torture, a narrow part of human rights.

    The US Vets Admin research shows that at least half of the soldiers who harm civilians or prisoners will get severe PTSD.

    The military/security forces leaders who allow or encourage torture are condemning their own troops to lives of psychological distress.

    And BTW, it was Sy Hersh (the guy folks around here love to hate) who exposed the torture at Abu Ghraib.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...-at-abu-ghraib

    And there was a whole lot of torture by US troops in Vietnam as well.

  34. #10009
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    17,647

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Try these, sandy:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia...rian_civil_war

    According to Amnesty International, in late February 2016 Russian warplanes deliberately targeted civilians and rescue workers during their bombing campaign.[496] The human rights group has documented attacks on schools, hospitals and civilian homes. Amnesty International also said that "Russia is guilty of some the most egregious war crimes" it had seen "in decades". The director of Amnesty's crisis response program, Tirana Hassan, said that after bombing civilian targets, the Russian warplanes "loop around" for a second attack to target the humanitarian workers and civilians who are trying to help those have been injured in the first sortie.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War

    According to human rights activists, Russian troops systematically committed the following crimes in Chechnya: the destruction of cities and villages, not justified by military necessity; shelling and bombardment of unprotected settlements; summary extrajudicial executions and killings of civilians; torture, ill-treatment and infringement of human dignity; serious bodily harm intentionally inflicted on persons not directly participating in hostilities; deliberate strikes against the civilian population, civilian and medical vehicles; illegal detentions of the civilian population and enforced disappearances; looting and destruction of civilian and public property; extortion; taking hostages for ransom; corpse trade.[91][92][93] There were also rapes,[94][95][96] which, along with women, were also subjected to men.[97][98][99][100][101][102] According to the Minister of Health of Ichkeria, Umar Khanbiev, Russian forces committed organ harvesting and organ trade during the conflict.[103]

  35. #10010
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    26,610

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    According to Amnesty International, in late February 2016 Russian warplanes deliberately targeted civilians and rescue workers during their bombing campaign.
    That's how they got Vadim, the civilian rescue worker. He didn't hold it against them, though. He remained pro-Russian even after they killed him.
    Last edited by Osborne Russell; 03-02-2023 at 02:45 PM.
    Long live the rights of man.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •