Ukraine

[skuthorp]

Vlad's stadium rally had all the atmosphere and trappings of the Nuremberg rallies, if a little less formal. He's working them up for actual war with NATO, and it cannot be long now I fear.

[Nicholas Carey]

We also talk here about Belarus being a potential Russian vassal when in fact, the USA color revolution there failed 15 Aug, 2020 Belarus’ Lukashenko says he is being targeted by ‘color revolution’, seeks to join forces with Putin https://www.rt.com/news/498101-lukas...v9ma9176061401 and Belarus government had to turn to Russia to protect their leadership from Uncle Sam. That is why we fear the big final phase as being a major offensive down from Belarus cutting NATO from continuing to supply Ukraine forces in the East.

You do realize that rt.com is a propaganda arm of the Russian government, run and financed by the same?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)

Back in 2017 (under TFG's watch, even), RT's US organization was required to register with the US as a foreign agent.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41991683

Anything they publish is/should be taken with several grains of salt.

[Johan R]

[QUOTE=WX;6808296]

Whatever the US or NATO ( or for that matter any number of other countries) has done in the past does not make what Russia is doing, right.
.

I have not seen anyone supporting Russian actions here. What I have read is one particular poster say that "NATO aggression" is a made up bit of propaganda, despite decades of evidence to the contrary.

If he is indeed a Swede, how does he explain that the majority of taxi drivers in Stockholm are from Iraq, that the increase in organised violent gun crime was run by Yugoslavs, that there are a places in Goteborg, Malmo and Stockholm called "little Mogadishu", due to the Somali diaspora, and the influx of Afghans and more recently Syrians.

One might wonder what the common denominator was in why people from those countries are in Sweden. It is certainly not for the good food and sunny beaches. Some people are unable to see reality for what it is, and will stick doggedly to their own beliefs, no matter what evidence is put before them. I pity such people.

[WX]

[QUOTE=Johan R;6808378]

I have not seen anyone supporting Russian actions here. What I have read is one particular poster say that "NATO aggression" is a made up bit of propaganda, despite decades of evidence to the contrary.

If he is indeed a Swede, how does he explain that the majority of taxi drivers in Stockholm are from Iraq, that the increase in organised violent gun crime was run by Yugoslavs, that there are a places in Goteborg, Malmo and Stockholm called "little Mogadishu", due to the Somali diaspora, and the influx of Afghans and more recently Syrians.

One might wonder what the common denominator was in why people from those countries are in Sweden. It is certainly not for the good food and sunny beaches. Some people are unable to see reality for what it is, and will stick doggedly to their own beliefs, no matter what evidence is put before them. I pity such people.

Google search on NATO aggression.
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/major-nato-military-interventions.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_operations

[Johan R]

US Prof. J. Mearshiemer.

[Osborne Russell]

Peddler.

[Osborne Russell]

"CGTN is funded in part or in whole by the Chinese Government."

29 F ing minutes FO

[L.W. Baxter]

i watched the intro, did not get beyond the absurd framing of the first question, "when the war broke out..." lol.

[Osborne Russell]

i watched the intro, did not get beyond the absurd framing of the first question, "when the war broke out..." lol.

Yeah.

Let's lob some missiles
into apartment buildings in China
See what they say.

[L.W. Baxter]

thanks though to johan for the little glimpse of the the chinese propaganda machine. using the russian invasion of ukraine to criticize...the u.s.a., and its "obsession with expanding nato".

[George Jung]

Is there anyone on this thread who do not consider 'johan' a tool/joke?

Of course, landrith has his own issues. Wow.

[Johan R]

Is there anyone on this thread who do not consider 'johan' a tool/joke?

Of course, landrith has his own issues. Wow.

Is there anyone on this forum that can point to a post made by you that is relevant to the subject matter, rather than throwing derogatory slurs ?

Troll.

[Johan R]

i watched the intro, did not get beyond the absurd framing of the first question, "when the war broke out..." lol.

Do you prefer "special military operation"?

[birlinn]

Your paymaster does.

[Johan R]

"CGTN is funded in part or in whole by the Chinese Government."

29 F ing minutes FO

Are you suggesting that the American Professor John J Mearsheim is a paid shill for the CCP or a Xiebot? Too afraid your narrow perspective might get challenged? Afraid of learning something new?

It seems no matter what side of bed you get out of, you are always in a foul mood. Unplug, take a walk in the sunshine.

[George Jung]

Is there anyone on this forum that can point to a post made by you that is relevant to the subject matter, rather than throwing derogatory slurs ?

Troll.

Nyet, Komrade; 'troll' would be you. There are many excellent contributors to this thread; you are not one of them.

[Peerie Maa]

US Prof. J. Mearshiemer.

In a subsequent interview in November 2022 to the same New Yorker journalist, Mearsheimer argued that since the beginning of the conflict Russia has not been interested in the occupation of Ukraine, but only in the annexation of its south-eastern territories (the oblasts of Kherson, Zaporizhzhia, Luhansk, and Donetsk). The main proof of this would be the fact that if Putin had really intended to occupy the entire territory of Ukraine, he would not have used an army consisting of only 190,000 soldiers. The bombings on Kyiv had and have the sole purpose of inducing the Ukrainian government and its western allies to accept the recognition of the annexation to Russia of the four aforementioned territories.^[80]

^{Well he got that assessment wrong.}

In an interview with C-SPAN in late March 2022, Mearsheimer has stated that he considers American involvement with the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine to be secondary in terms of geopolitical priorities to immediate concerns which he associates with the containment of threats to geopolitical stability being caused by contemporary Chinese geopolitics, which Mearsheimer considers as a more immediate threat to geopolitical concerns in the United States.^[81] Mearsheimer debated the Russian invasion with Polish MP Radoslaw Sikorski in May 2022. Sikorski identified Putin as the culprit in conducting the invasion of Ukraine while Mearsheimer argued that Putin is pursuing a realist geopolitical plan to secure Russian national interests in the presence of perceived threats from an expanding NATO.^[82]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mearsheimer
Pootin has not got any realistic plan, he is paranoid about a non-existent threat from Nato. Radoslaw Sikorski got it right in that interview.
In addition, if Pootin conquers Ukraine, Russia borders NATO member states. Exactly the same as if Ukraine joins NATO.

[L.W. Baxter]

Do you prefer "special military operation"?

i prefer plain language that accurately describes events without obfuscation.

i criticize my own country for the 2003 invasion of iraq, which i did not support. i don't say "when the iraq war broke out..."

there is no reason to characterize the invasion of ukraine as "war breaking out", unless your entire intent is to shape reality rather than to understand it.

[Johan R]

i prefer plain language that accurately describes events without obfuscation.

i criticize my own country for the 2003 invasion of iraq, which i did not support. i don't say "when the iraq war broke out..."

there is no reason to characterize the invasion of ukraine as "war breaking out", unless your entire intent is to shape reality rather than to understand it.

How can you come to a satisfactory conclusion when you yourself admit you did not listen to what he had to say? His " characterization" might be shaped by his own findings, but without listening, you would not know.

It must be fascinating to be like yourself and Osbourne where you can dismiss what someone else might think, before you have even heard it. Quite remarkable.

[L.W. Baxter]

How can you come to a satisfactory conclusion when you yourself admit you did not listen to what he had to say? His " characterization" might be shaped by his own findings, but without listening, you would not know.

It must be fascinating to be like yourself and Osbourne where you can dismiss what someone else might think, before you have even heard it. Quite remarkable.

there's nearly 8 billion people on the planet. potentially 8 billion different "points of view". i'll give you a few sentences to show me what you are doing: looking to illuminate, or obscure.

that russian armed forces crossed the border of ukraine, taking and occupying sovereign ukrainian territory by lethal force, is not in dispute. that is an invasion. if you call it anything else, we are done. i won't waste my time waiting for you to explain why you won't use simple and factual vocabulary. time for another of the 8 billion to be heard from.

[Johan R]

that russian armed forces crossed the border of ukraine, taking and occupying sovereign ukrainian territory by lethal force, is not in dispute. that is an invasion. if you call it anything else, we are done. .

I have not called it anything, but repeatedly written it was not in anyway justified.

The US "invaded" Iraq......it was a war, ditto Afghanistan. Being a drama queen about the semantics does nothing. I generally call two sovereign nations that have its military engaged, a "war". The fact one is defending and one is invading, does not change that. But you are free to call it whatever you choose.

[Johan R]

Jeffery Sachs, paid shill or respected educator?

[L.W. Baxter]

I have not called it anything, but repeatedly written it was not in anyway justified.

The US "invaded" Iraq......it was a war, ditto Afghanistan. Being a drama queen about the semantics does nothing. I generally call two sovereign nations that have its military engaged, a "war". The fact one is defending and one is invading, does not change that. But you are free to call it whatever you choose.

you haven't called the russian invasion of ukraine an invasion. but spin away to the u.s. "invasion" of iraq, which i, in my dedication to a shared reality, have already called an invasion just above. exactly my point.

you and the chinese tv commentator are using the same script. *yawn*

[Canoeyawl]

I have not called it anything, but repeatedly written it was not in anyway justified.

The US "invaded" Iraq......it was a war, ditto Afghanistan. Being a drama queen about the semantics does nothing. I generally call two sovereign nations that have its military engaged, a "war". The fact one is defending and one is invading, does not change that. But you are free to call it whatever you choose.

What about the massacre at bowling green?

[CWSmith]

This comes from Business Insider if it has not been posted already:

The average life expectancy of a front-line soldier in eastern Ukraine is around 4 hours, says an American fighting in 'the meat grinder'

* The average life expectancy of a front-line soldier in eastern Ukraine is just 4 hours, says a former US Marine.

* He said the fighting is especially deadly in Bakhmut, dubbed "the meat grinder."

* Ukraine has resisted Russian advances on the city ahead of the one-year anniversary of the invasion.

The average life expectancy of a front-line soldier in eastern Ukraine is just four hours, a former US Marine fighting alongside Ukrainian forces in the Donbas told ABC News.

"It's been pretty bad on the ground. A lot of casualties. The life expectancy is around four hours on the front line," American Troy Offenbecker said.

The city of Bakhmut has experienced some of the bloodiest fighting since Russia's invasion in Ukraine almost one year ago. The battle for the city is the longest running of the war.

Fighting in Bakhmut is so bad, Offenbecker said, it's been dubbed "the meat grinder."

In early January, a senior US military official described combat in and around this town, which may be of limited strategic significance to either side, as "savage."

"You're talking about thousands upon thousands of artillery rounds that have been delivered between both sides," the official said. "In many cases, you know, you're looking at, you know, several thousand artillery rounds in a day that are being exchanged."

Bakhmut has been a major target for Russian offensive forces. According to the UK Ministry of Defence, Russia is under "increasing political pressure" to claim some victories ahead of the anniversary of the invasion.

"It is likely that Russia will claim that Bakhmut has been captured to align with the anniversary, regardless of the reality on the ground," the ministry tweeted Monday.

Bakhmut, in the Donetsk region, has been besieged by Russian forces throughout much of the war in Ukraine. Late last year, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said it had been reduced to "burned ruins."

Russian forces have been attempting to encircle the war-torn city for months, but stiff Ukrainian opposition has so far prevented the Russians from taking it.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...5a4543dc7e1bcd

[George.]

Bakhmut = Verdun.

I hope the upcoming Ukrainian offensive doesn't look like the Somme.

[Landrith]

You do realize that rt.com is a propaganda arm of the Russian government, run and financed by the same?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)

Back in 2017 (under TFG's watch, even), RT's US organization was required to register with the US as a foreign agent.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41991683

Anything they publish is/should be taken with several grains of salt.

An interesting test of the effectiveness of sticking to your "fact checked" sources will be when US made missiles and smart artillery rounds are targeting Russian formations in Belarus as they are entering Ukraine. When that part of the invasion starts, there is not enough real estate between the border and Kiev to not have to defend Kiev in depth beyond the frontier. It will be pretty clear then that Belarus leaders withdrew from the West and closer to Putin to stay in power. I think the only friction between the two since then is Russia demanding more Belarus artillery shell stocks than the Belarus army wanted to donate with a view that Belarus will need them soon to defend against NATO.

[Peerie Maa]

Russia demanding more Belarus artillery shell stocks than the Belarus army wanted to donate with a view that Belarus will need them soon to defend against NATO.

So the Belarus government are also off their meds?
You should do some research before repeating what ever terminological inexactitudes that you suck up.
NATO is primarily a peace keeping force, not an aggressor.

Although the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) was present throughout the Cold War as the opposite to the Warsaw Pact, and conducted joint military exercises, no military operations took place. All military NATO operations have occurred after the Cold War when NATO's influence in a post-Cold War rose to prominence in Bosnia where NATO gradually stepped up its efforts to end the trouble. This culminated with NATO's first air campaign in 1995, Operation Deliberate Force, which targeted the Army of Republika Srpska whose presence in Bosnia posed a danger to United Nations Safe Areas and ultimately the bombing helped to bring about the Dayton Accords.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_operations

and from the horse's mouth

NATO is an active and leading contributor to peace and security on the international stage. It promotes democratic values and is committed to the peaceful resolution of disputes. However, if diplomatic efforts fail, it has the military capacity to undertake crisis management operations alone or in cooperation with other countries and international organisations.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_52060.htm

Sounding like an ignorant, fact free dupe does you a disservice.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

An interesting test of the effectiveness of sticking to your "fact checked" sources will be when US made missiles and smart artillery rounds are targeting Russian formations in Belarus as they are entering Ukraine. When that part of the invasion starts, there is not enough real estate between the border and Kiev to not have to defend Kiev in depth beyond the frontier. It will be pretty clear then that Belarus leaders withdrew from the West and closer to Putin to stay in power. I think the only friction between the two since then is Russia demanding more Belarus artillery shell stocks than the Belarus army wanted to donate with a view that Belarus will need them soon to defend against NATO.

Someone seems to have forgotten the first two months of the Russian invasion.

[Landrith]

Someone seems to have forgotten the first two months of the Russian invasion.

No, I haven't. And there were incidents of Russians being lawfully targeted in Belarus because it was an invasion Belarus was permitting or responsible for. But that was when Putin believed a "special military operation" and chiefly a light Infantry force could occupy and administer Russian will among a supporting population.

Its quite different when armored infantry is moving cross country through shelled grid squares ...Ukraine will need to destroy as much of the assaulting force as they can while it is in Belarus.

[Johan R]

You should do some research before repeating what ever terminological inexactitudes that you suck up.
NATO is primarily a peace keeping force, not an aggressor.

Sounding like an ignorant, fact free dupe does you a disservice.

Perhaps ponder your own advice. "primarily" is no excuse for war crimes.

NATO bombing of Yugoslavia - Wikipedia

2011 military intervention in Libya - Wikipedia

[Nicholas Carey]

We also talk here about Belarus being a potential Russian vassal when in fact, the USA color revolution there failed 15 Aug, 2020 Belarus’ Lukashenko says he is being targeted by ‘color revolution’, seeks to join forces with Putin https://www.rt.com/news/498101-lukas...v9ma9176061401 and Belarus government had to turn to Russia to protect their leadership from Uncle Sam. That is why we fear the big final phase as being a major offensive down from Belarus cutting NATO from continuing to supply Ukraine forces in the East.

An interesting test of the effectiveness of sticking to your "fact checked" sources will be when US made missiles and smart artillery rounds are targeting Russian formations in Belarus as they are entering Ukraine. When that part of the invasion starts, there is not enough real estate between the border and Kiev to not have to defend Kiev in depth beyond the frontier. It will be pretty clear then that Belarus leaders withdrew from the West and closer to Putin to stay in power. I think the only friction between the two since then is Russia demanding more Belarus artillery shell stocks than the Belarus army wanted to donate with a view that Belarus will need them soon to defend against NATO.

You might want to do a little reading on Lukenshenko's rise to power in Belarus and how he has transformed the Byelorussian government. Lukenshenko's Belarus is the same Potemkin "democracy" that Putin's Russia is.

https://www.rferl.org/a/elections-in.../30767860.html

[Peerie Maa]

Perhaps ponder your own advice. "primarily" is no excuse for war crimes.

NATO bombing of Yugoslavia - Wikipedia

2011 military intervention in Libya - Wikipedia

You have a strange definition of "War Crimes" Surely the ICC Courts in Den Haag would have been involved by now.

[LeeG]

article about why the Russian convoy to Kyiv effed up so badly last year. There must be some disconnects in the chain of command to start an invasion with so much hardware and troops yet be so lacking in critical areas.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64664944

[WX]

Perhaps ponder your own advice. "primarily" is no excuse for war crimes.

NATO bombing of Yugoslavia - Wikipedia

2011 military intervention in Libya - Wikipedia

NATO's intervention was prompted by Yugoslavia's bloodshed and ethnic cleansing of Albanians,

From the beginning of the intervention, the initial coalition of Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Italy, Norway, Qatar, Spain, UK and US^{[33][34][35][36][37]} expanded to nineteen states, with newer states mostly enforcing the no-fly zone and naval blockade or providing military logistical assistance. The effort was initially largely led by France and the United Kingdom, with command shared with the United States. NATO took control of the arms embargo on 23 March, named Operation Unified Protector. An attempt to unify the military command of the air campaign (whilst keeping political and strategic control with a small group), first failed over objections by the French, German, and Turkish governments.^[38][39] On 24 March, NATO agreed to take control of the no-fly zone, while command of targeting ground units remains with coalition forces.^[40][41][42] The handover occurred on 31 March 2011 at 06:00 UTC (08:00 local time). NATO flew 26,500 sorties since it took charge of the Libya mission on 31 March 2011.
Fighting in Libya ended in late October following the killing of Muammar Gaddafi, and NATO stated it would end operations over Libya on 31 October 2011. Libya's new government requested that its mission be extended to the end of the year,^[43] but on 27 October, the Security Council unanimously voted to end NATO's mandate for military action on 31 October.^[44]