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Thread: Ukraine

  1. #5006
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    ….and I have to agree with the Al Jazeera summary above.
    The rest of us rely on the Russian people to solve this one for us…………..we will require some luck.

  2. #5007
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    Default Ukraine

    Just as an aside, in the bit of the 1958 Commentary [on Geneva III] that I quoted earlier, this paragraph makes Terence's to the underlying rationale for the restrictions on internment being "an abuse which occurred during [WW 2]:

    The Convention stresses the exceptional character of measures of internment and assigned residence by making their application subject to strict conditions; its object in doing this is to put an end to an abuse which occurred during the Second World War. All too often the mere fact of being an enemy subject was regarded as justifying internment. Henceforward only absolute necessity, based on the requirements of state security, can justify recourse to these two measures, and only then if security cannot be safeguarded by other, less severe means. All considerations not on this basis are strictly excluded.
    That aforementioned abuse almost certainly being the internment by the USA of Japanese resident in the USA.

    Also, on the subject of Chomsky, I find these two essays to be interesting reading:

    Just War Theory and the Ukraine-Russia War, and Noam Chomsky on the morality of war and Ukraine.

    https://philrsblog.com/utilitarianism/extension-material-1-just-war-theory-and-the-ukraine-russia-conflict-2-noam-chomsky-on-the-morality-of-war-and-ukraine/

    Noam Chomsky has no proposal for ending Russia's war on Ukraine

    https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/noam-chomsky-has-no-proposal-ending-russias-war-ukraine
    Last edited by Nicholas Carey; 09-25-2022 at 05:44 PM.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  3. #5008
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    At the summit in Samarkand last week Putin was not late for his meetings.

    Putin is always late. He was 14 minutes late for the State Banquet at Buckingham Palace during his State Visit to Britain in June 2003. A calculated, deliberate, insult.

    This time, everyone else - starting with Erdogan, continuing with Xi, was late for their meetings with Putin.


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  4. #5009
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    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    There's some very intense close up small arms contact video on YouTube.

    I saw one of those this morning. Post-combat footage. Ukrainian graves team, post-battle. Lots of corpses laying in the wood, probably Russian, since no blue or yellow armbands to be seen. They were hauling large sacks of a white powder on their backs, probably quicklime (calcium oxide), since they were spreading copious amounts of the stuff on the corpses.

    Quicklime is a more potent desiccant than silica gel: it acts to dry out the corpse and prevent/postpone its decay, thereby helping to stop the decomposing corpse from spreading disease and smelling of rotting death.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  5. #5010
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    The situation in Dagestan is interesting. Maybe it’ll start a trend.

  6. #5011
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    Okay. I defer to those who've thought it through more deeply than I have. Just to be clear, my idea was to provide a way out for those likely to be forced into combat and possibly dying in a horrible war they don't want to support, while also providng a measure of security against potential subversives. Absolutely, all of whatever extant treaties and conventions apply, still should. And I agree as far as I know, with President Zelenski, with regard to treatment of Russian soldiers who've surrendered or been captured.
    Jim maybe instead of building their own internment camps, they could be asked to contribute to cleanup and repair of the cities and towns their glorious military has destroyed. Actively helping might also help a little with healing. Just a thought. JayInOz

  7. #5012
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    Just as an aside, in the bit of the 1958 Commentary [on Geneva III] that I quoted earlier, this paragraph makes Terence's to the underlying rationale for the restrictions on internment being "an abuse which occurred during [WW 2]:



    That aforementioned abuse almost certainly being the internment by the USA of Japanese resident in the USA.

    Also, on the subject of Chomsky, I find these two essays to be interesting reading:

    Just War Theory and the Ukraine-Russia War, and Noam Chomsky on the morality of war and Ukraine.

    https://philrsblog.com/utilitarianis...r-and-ukraine/

    Noam Chomsky has no proposal for ending Russia's war on Ukraine

    https://www.greenleft.org.au/content...as-war-ukraine
    Your links don't work, but this is an interesting article, so I'll have a go at linking:

    https://www.greenleft.org.au/content...as-war-ukraine

  8. #5013
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Niki Proshin. Interesting young man.

    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

  9. #5014
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Your links don't work, but this is an interesting article, so I'll have a go at linking:

    https://www.greenleft.org.au/content...as-war-ukraine

    Weird. They both work for me. How about this?

    https://philrsblog.com/utilitarianis...r-and-ukraine/
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  10. #5015
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    I love Chomsky - I try to be a good internationalist like him. The world should be grateful for his principled criticism of Israel, and much else. He is brilliant.

    And here in the Bilge his critics merely slime him - and utterly refuse to deal with his points. I'm proud to have met him - and told him so.

    Meanwhile, my call for an Eastern European DMZ (before the Russian invasion) looks pretty good right now.

    And yes, I am aware that almost nobody paid the slightest attention to it - but they should have.

    https://www.juancole.com/2022/02/neu...d-eastern.html
    I respect Chomsky's opinion on a number of issues. He did a great job explaining the role America played in Iran. I'd recommend you to that lecture if you haven't heard it already. It'll make you giddy with historical outrage. I disagree with his position here and find Vexler's view on point. Have you watched the video?
    Last edited by Lew Barrett; 09-25-2022 at 08:51 PM.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

  11. #5016
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    NYT; Conscripting Ukrainians living in occupied areas. Disproportional recruitment of Tartar's in Crimea.

    Is this some messed up Soviet era attempt to meet the targets set by the authorities?
    How do you make a captive people kill their kin?

    How many officers will lead from the front now?
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  12. #5017
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    The 'officers' will be at the back with machine guns. And it is calculated that the Ukranian army will be reluctant to fire at them.

  13. #5018
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Think fragging first lieutenants in Nam. Or as a Marine related losing one overboard Nam bound.
    Ruskies will rectify what they can, when they can.

  14. #5019
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Putin is always late. He was 14 minutes late for the State Banquet at Buckingham Palace during his State Visit to Britain in June 2003. A calculated, deliberate, insult.
    If congenital lateness is a sure sign of malevolence the Admiral will be divorcing me shortly.

  15. #5020
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    Niki Proshin. Interesting young man.

    I find that very naive, at best.
    Not a trace of acknowledging the mass graves, torture, rape, hunger and fear imposed on the Ukrainian people by Russia. He wants his country to be able to butcher children, and be able to travel and buy cheap stuff.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  16. #5021
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    NYT; Conscripting Ukrainians living in occupied areas. Disproportional recruitment of Tartar's in Crimea.

    Is this some messed up Soviet era attempt to meet the targets set by the authorities?
    How do you make a captive people kill their kin?
    This is a silent genocide, some minorities in russian outback have already exceeded 20% conscription. It will end up even higher for the Tatars. My take is that the ethnic cleansing is a willfully ignored side effect, the real goal being to take as little live assets from where potential rebels care.

    How do you make captive people kill their kin? Check some European history, nations split in half between two enemy empires was not uncommon. There's a varying degree of success.
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  17. #5022
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    I find that very naive, at best.
    Not a trace of acknowledging the mass graves, torture, rape, hunger and fear imposed on the Ukrainian people by Russia. He wants his country to be able to butcher children, and be able to travel and buy cheap stuff.
    As a Russian in Russia he has to be damn careful not to put a toe over the line - so no, of course he doesn't mention any of that stuff, he can't without risking getting locked up. He is more than well aware though, and has referenced it very obliquely in some of his other videos.

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  18. #5023
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    I saw a report that Russian police have opened fire on anti-conscription protesters, but I've not been able verify it.
    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  19. #5024
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    If he gets the Russian people off side he's finished. but he still has the nuke trigger and could pull it all down.

  20. #5025
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    It is estimated that around 250 000 cowards have fled the federation since the announcement of mobilisation until Sunday evening.
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  21. #5026
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    An army enlistment officer has been shot, and there are reports of recruitment offices being torched.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  22. #5027
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    It is estimated that around 250 000 cowards have fled the federation since the announcement of mobilisation until Sunday evening.
    You complained also about the Ukranians seeking shelter in Poland. Do you prefer the alternative that men of fighting age on both sides are forced to enter into a bloodbath not of their making?

    One may have thought having less bodies to conscript would be a good thing, and the optics throughout Russia make Putin look weak, why would you oppose it?

  23. #5028
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Refusing conscription to go, untrained, to a likely death in a war which is being waged on the basis of a lie doesn't sound simply like cowardice to me. Though I'm sure some of the men fleeing conscription are cowards. And one can certainly argue that it's braver to stay in Russia to be shot (or worse) instead while resisting.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  24. #5029
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    This is a silent genocide, some minorities in russian outback have already exceeded 20% conscription. It will end up even higher for the Tatars. My take is that the ethnic cleansing is a willfully ignored side effect, the real goal being to take as little live assets from where potential rebels care.

    How do you make captive people kill their kin? Check some European history, nations split in half between two enemy empires was not uncommon. There's a varying degree of success.
    Is this a bug or a feature? I'm thinking that this is certainly by design - a "purification" of Russia while using these people to claim territory - at any cost.

    It certainly would seem to fit with previous behavior.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  25. #5030
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    “After the mobilization was announced, 261,000 men left Russia, reports "Novaya Gazeta. Europe", citing a source in the presidential administration.”

    Nexta TV
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  26. #5031
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    After the mobilization was announced, 261,000 men left Russia, reports "Novaya Gazeta. Europe", citing a source in the presidential administration.
    Again, a bug or a feature? The political opposition self-exiling might not be entirely a bad thing, from some points of view.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  27. #5032
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Here’s a bundle of demographic data from Wikipedia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia

    I don’t expect the loss of 262,000 men of military age from both the army and the work force will mark much difference, really, but it does tell us that the Ukrainian Adventure is even less popular than the Vietnam War was.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  28. #5033
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    I utterly fail to see how conscripting people WHO DON'T WANT TO FIGHT in some way strengthens their military.

    You can blaze away all you want without really aiming; it satisfies the backup slaughter troops that you are, while you preserve your skin to defect at a practicable time.

    The crux will come after their phoney referenda where they claimm it's now their territory which they will defend with nukes. THAT is where the rubber will meet the road, and then we shall all see.

    Panic buying in Russian stores today, says the Inside Russia blog.
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  29. #5034
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    This is a silent genocide, some minorities in russian outback have already exceeded 20% conscription. It will end up even higher for the Tatars. My take is that the ethnic cleansing is a willfully ignored side effect, the real goal being to take as little live assets from where potential rebels care.
    They're doing it intentionally, from long practice. It's how the Russian Empire was built.

    Some of the greatest anguish played out hundreds or thousands of miles away from the front line, in the Caucasus Mountains and the northeastern region of Yakutia, a sparsely populated expanse that straddles the Arctic Circle. Community leaders described remote villages where much of the working-age male population received conscription notices in recent days, leaving families that subsist off the land without men around to work ahead of the long winter.

    “We have reindeer herders, hunters, fishermen — we have so few of them anyway,” Vyacheslav Shadrin, the chairman of the council of elders for a small Indigenous group known as the Yukaghirs, said in a phone interview. “But they are the ones being drafted most of all.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/23/w...er_new_arm_5_1
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

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  30. #5035
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    I listened to an NPR blurb on Russia's conscription with some interesting results. One that was notable was the tremendous amount of google hits from Russia asking "how to break your own arm"

    Which, I knew a man, a Quaker in Maine that had married his childhood sweetheart in November of 1941. Somehow just before Christmas while he was splitting stovewood for the kitchen (you need a mountain of stove-wood for a winter in Maine) he accidentally chopped off his trigger finger at the second knuckle...
    (He was a good man, and no coward, I miss him still, RIP David)

  31. #5036
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    You complained also about the Ukranians seeking shelter in Poland. Do you prefer the alternative that men of fighting age on both sides are forced to enter into a bloodbath not of their making?

    One may have thought having less bodies to conscript would be a good thing, and the optics throughout Russia make Putin look weak, why would you oppose it?
    Funny I knew exactly what this troll account would write even before clicking 'post quick reply'

    Yes, I would prefer the bloodbath. Preferably inflicted by civilians pushed over their limits on the Kremlin rats that pushed them.

    It takes a lot of ill will to not see the difference between women fleeing from an attacked country and cowards running from conscription with remains of glue from white tape spelling "Z" on car window. Which Georgian border guards stop and turn around immediately, by the way.
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  32. #5037
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    You complained also about the Ukranians seeking shelter in Poland. Do you prefer the alternative that men of fighting age on both sides are forced to enter into a bloodbath not of their making?
    Self-government requires sacrifice to duty and yields freedom. If the Russians develop a taste for it, there will be less killing, in Europe anyway.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  33. #5038
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    I listened to an NPR blurb on Russia's conscription with some interesting results. One that was notable was the tremendous amount of google hits from Russia asking "how to break your own arm"

    Which, I knew a man, a Quaker in Maine that had married his childhood sweetheart in November of 1941. Somehow just before Christmas while he was splitting stovewood for the kitchen (you need a mountain of stove-wood for a winter in Maine) he accidentally chopped off his trigger finger at the second knuckle...
    (He was a good man, and no coward, I miss him still, RIP David)
    Those who refuse war are braver by far than those of us who allowed themselves to be conscripted.

    We should have known better.

  34. #5039
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Snowden is now a Russian! Will he be conscripted?
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63036991

    Pete
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  35. #5040
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    The Nord Stream 2 dropped about 1,421 psi. I wonder if some clever germans stole it and got with the Danish buddies and “found” a leak. No idea if a big chunk of 300 million cubic meters of gas would be worth it. Shame to have it sit there this winter. Or have the russians bleed and flare it. Hats off if they were that clever.

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