Page 137 of 210 FirstFirst ... 3787127136137138147187 ... LastLast
Results 4,761 to 4,795 of 7329

Thread: Ukraine

  1. #4761
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    29,029

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    The "entire nation of Germany" was "rescued" - so to speak - circa 1946

    Galvin thought Marshall Plan type approaches could work in Eastern Europe too.
    Not only was Germany occupied, a program of denazification barred the anti-democratic element of society from any role in government. Doing the same in Russia wasn't going to happen. The West made plenty of mistakes after the fall of the Soviet Union, but the circumstances for the kind of transformation that happened in Germany weren't there.

  2. #4762
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,754

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    a program of denazification barred the anti-democratic element of society from any role in government. .
    That program was pretty ineffective - many former Nazis were protected by the US.

    But it was better than nothing - today the Nazis are not much of a force in Germany.

  3. #4763
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,754

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    It's no different from the Allied post-WW2 administration of Germany.
    It is nuts, not to mention ethno-centric, for you to suggest that all Russians are equally guilty.

    The Post-WWII allies in Germany did NOT do that.

  4. #4764
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    29,029

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    That program was pretty ineffective - many former Nazis were protected by the US.

    But it was better than nothing - today the Nazis are not much of a force in Germany.
    You are contradicting yourself. It was effective, which is why Nazis are not much of a force in Germany.

    Plus, industry was already privately owned, so the economy did not need to be restructured, only rebuilt. And why do you think a successful economy would lead to a peaceful democracy? It hasn't worked out that way in China. In fact, given your political leanings, it seems strange that you would think turning Russia into a successful capitalist society would make it peaceful. Are you under the impression that capitalism has made America more peaceful?

  5. #4765
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    new zealand
    Posts
    6,024

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    You are contradicting yourself. It was effective, which is why Nazis are not much of a force in Germany.

    Plus, industry was already privately owned, so the economy did not need to be restructured, only rebuilt. And why do you think a successful economy would lead to a peaceful democracy? It hasn't worked out that way in China. In fact, given your political leanings, it seems strange that you would think turning Russia into a successful capitalist society would make it peaceful. Are you under the impression that capitalism has made America more peaceful?
    On the contrary. Capitalism has given America the tools to project power as and where it sees fit, at almost no risk to itself - the boots on the ground doing the actual dirty work excepted, obviously.

    Pete
    The Ignore feature, lowering blood pressure since 1862. Ahhhhhhh.

  6. #4766
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    29,029

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    On the contrary. Capitalism has given America the tools to project power as and where it sees fit, at almost no risk to itself - the boots on the ground doing the actual dirty work excepted, obviously.

    Pete
    I believe this is exactly what sandtown finds reprehensible.

  7. #4767
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    20,439

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Cat got Putin's tongue today?
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  8. #4768
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Nashville
    Posts
    30,805

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    entire nation of germany? except the half occupied by you-know-who.

    you mean half the german nation minus its young men and its army and all its weapons, and with an occupying force in place.

    how is that at all similar to russia, the well-armed nuclear power, in the era of soviet collapse? what were we gonna do, invite ourselves in?

    there is no question that opportunities are lost every day. but a "marshall plan" for russia in the 90's is pure fantasy.
    D’accord. This reply exposes how naive yet subtle Sand’s line of reasoning is. As if it was the west’s responsibility or even within the realm of possibility to do for post Soviet Russia what was done for Western Europe. They rejected Gorbachev’s ideas and the man himself outright and still do Let us be real, Sandy. The likely point of no return was Yeltsin and his decision respecting Putin. Another screwball Boris.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

  9. #4769
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Nashville
    Posts
    30,805

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    That program was pretty ineffective - many former Nazis were protected by the US.

    But it was better than nothing - today the Nazis are not much of a force in Germany.
    Not a perfect ending with perfect justice. Probably still a good idea to enlist Von Braun regardless since rocketry has assumed such significance lately. We hadn’t added much since Goddard and the experts the Soviets could get their hands on we’re not going to help the free world. A nasty marriage of convenience. It’s actually mathematically possible that one or more of my relatives died at Peenemunde although more likely Sobibor or a Babi Yar ending. So I’m not conflicted about how I feel regarding the many Nazis who escaped justice by becoming useful to the winners. It’s physically enraging to me. What does that have to do with Putin’s war crime in Ukraine?

    By the way, my money is on another turd getting the brass ring if the music stops for Vladimir Vladimirovich. They could surprise us with Navalny or similar but ask yourself, what are the chances he even lives through this? Is he even still alive? How would you know?
    War is peace. Freedom is slavery.

    And yet there are good Russians. Too bad they’re either in jail, have to flee the country or are laying low. Some very brave ones get through on YouTube. Hats off to them.
    Last edited by Lew Barrett; 09-20-2022 at 03:51 PM.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

  10. #4770
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    71,362

    Default Re: Ukraine

    In the case of a collapse of the Putin regime Navalny would likely be eliminated if only by his jailers to hide their own calumny.

  11. #4771
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Nashville
    Posts
    30,805

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Exactly.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

  12. #4772
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    1,276

    Default Re: Ukraine

    I agree with Vadim that we're just speculating regarding a possible replacement of Putin. This is an internet discussion forum, so why not?
    In politics as well as private companies it's common to replace leading persons so he/she can absorb the blame for everything that went wrong. The successor takes over and thanks the former leader for his/her excellent services and promises to provide continuity. In reality they discount all previous losses, manage to put the blame on the former leader and then start over from there.
    That's what I expect will happen after Putin. It doesn't matter that much who takes over; it's still an opportunity to start over and rescue what can be rescued while only Putin is losing face.
    /Erik

  13. #4773
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    71,362

    Default Re: Ukraine

    ………………unless he pulls it all down with him………….

  14. #4774
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Nashville
    Posts
    30,805

    Default Re: Ukraine

    And now the latest farce, plebiscites called for in three days just as Ukraine is knocking on the door of Lyman. A masquerade worthy of Stalin himself. In years to come they will study this moment Putin’s puppets propose, comparing it to the Reichstag fire and the Gleiwitz incident. Pure hubris and cynicism that knows no bounds. And somehow this is the west’s fault? Oh my.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

  15. #4775
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,754

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    You are contradicting yourself. It was effective, which is why Nazis are not much of a force in Germany.
    Do you really want me to give you all the cites about US coddling/facilitating/promoting . .

    fascists & Nazis in post-WWII Europe . . . . ??

  16. #4776
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    35,593

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Do you really want me to give you all the cites about US coddling/facilitating/promoting . .

    fascists & Nazis in post-WWII Europe . . . . ??
    Interesting barrow you're trying to push.
    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  17. #4777
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,754

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Interesting barrow you're trying to push.
    I do my best to push the truth, but have actually pushed some wheelbarrows in my time

    . . . . are you really unaware of that history ?

  18. #4778
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA USA
    Posts
    16,808

    Default Re: Ukraine

    This is interesting — why would the transponders have been turned off?

    5C4FF392-5B29-40EC-B369-3FFA29EFB4BF.jpeg
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  19. #4779
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    71,362

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Russians and Chinese turn theirs off all the time, I'm sure the US does too………………

  20. #4780
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,754

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    D how naive yet subtle Sand’s line of reasoning is. As if it was the west’s responsibility or even within the realm of possibility to do for post Soviet Russia what was done for Western Europe. They rejected Gorbachev’s ideas and the man himself outright and still do Let us be real, Sandy. The likely point of no return was Yeltsin and his decision respecting Putin.
    It was not me but Gen Galvin AT THAT TIME who argued for a Marshall Plan for Russia in the early 1990's. I was proud then, and remain proud, to be naive in that way.

    And the US Blob had a LOT to do with keeping Yeltsin in power - it may have been the most fraught action taken by the US during the Clinton years.

    And of course that led to Putin

  21. #4781
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    71,362

    Default Re: Ukraine

    The only possible way to change Russia is remake of the Marshall Plan, but that requires a brave President with a workable and disciplined majority, and public support………………..

  22. #4782
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    71,362

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Reports are that Putin has orderd a 'partial mobilisation' to liberate the Donbass and protect the country.

    https://www.france24.com/en/europe/2...am-referendums

  23. #4783
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Fredrikstad, Norway
    Posts
    1,078

    Default Re: Ukraine

    half an hour of straight lying, its amazing to watch his speech.
    Ragnar B.

  24. #4784
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    28,499

    Default Re: Ukraine

    I understand that the mobilisation and the plebiscites in the occupied parts of Ukraine are related because in Russia mobilisation is only permitted where there is a threat to Russia. Call the occupied territories “Russia” and the mobilisation is lawful?

    Yes.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  25. #4785
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Sorrento Australia
    Posts
    5,345

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Up to 300,000 reservists.
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
    Bruce Cockburn

  26. #4786
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    28,499

    Default Re: Ukraine

    One wonders if the notorious Russian logistics will be able to handle anything like that many men on active service.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  27. #4787
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    20,439

    Default Re: Ukraine

    They cannot feed and equip the ones they currently have in the field, so how will they do that for 300,000 more troops?
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  28. #4788
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    44,039

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Russia looks worse every day. I think the question is one of how Putin reacts.
    "Banning books and not guns seems backwards. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

  29. #4789
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    28,499

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Russian men between 18 and 65 are banned from leaving the country. Since there are almost no flights, trains, or ships and visas are needed, this doesn’t make much difference!
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  30. #4790
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    2,384

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    This is interesting — why would the transponders have been turned off?

    5C4FF392-5B29-40EC-B369-3FFA29EFB4BF.jpeg
    At this moment I count at least 4 manned NATO aircraft monitoring the battlefield, there probably are several others who are not using their transponders, as usual during this conflict. Every now and then a drone switches on his transponders ( and off), probably to test the Russian air defenses.
    It is rare to see the actual fighter aircraft patrolling the borders of NATO territory, but you can be sure they are there.
    Last edited by dutchpp; 09-21-2022 at 07:47 AM.

  31. #4791
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,816

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Reports are that Putin has orderd a 'partial mobilisation' to liberate the Donbass and protect the country.
    That means he daren't order a full mob, which means he's cooked.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  32. #4792
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,816

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    They cannot feed and equip the ones they currently have in the field, so how will they do that for 300,000 more troops?
    Indeed. Spanking new draftees at that.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  33. #4793
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    EU
    Posts
    1,278

    Default Re: Ukraine

    First let me say that what follows is kremlinology, and not very deep.

    Putin has a pretty good grip on the Duma, so changing the laws to suit is not a problem. OTOH he can't go against the military institutional inertia, he risks loosing their support. This means he can order mobilisation to help an african country and be legal, but he can't order to move more divisions to Ukraine without facing a coup. The russian army already has the manpower to supply all the needed cannon fodder, but their doctrine doesn't allow their use. The command structure will simply not accept a line like "China, Mongolia, ***stan, will not invade us tomorrow, you can safely move all troops facing those borders." It's not a top brass issue, everybody down the line is indoctrinated like this. One can't change attitudes by decree, and the other option isn't available, I doubt Putin can pull off a stalinist epuration. All the existing paramilitary troops mean nothing, they don't have the firepower to face the military.

    The Kremlin now has to do its job and sell the mobilisation to the masses, and it will be very interesting to see mobilisation statistics and troop usage. It will take some time until this info reaches our public sphere, but eventually we will see how many ethnic russians get drafted, how the geographical distribution is, if the new troops are used to secure rear positions or get sent to the front, etc. Such info is a good indicator about RF internal politics and public opinion.

  34. #4794
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    28,499

    Default Re: Ukraine

    I think the idea that Putin ordered a sort of « blitzkrieg » operation to overthrow the Ukrainian government within three days, securing Hostomel airport using paratroops, etc., that this failed and was replaced with a plan to secure the Donbas, and that this has not succeeded either, is now generally accepted.

    The various lectures by “Perun”, posted here, don’t seem to be disputed and give a detailed account of Russia’s ability to fight a large or long war.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  35. #4795
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    sweden
    Posts
    298

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Russian men between 18 and 65 are banned from leaving the country. Since there are almost no flights, trains, or ships and visas are needed, this doesn’t make much difference!
    You do not seem embarrassed to post such ignorant comments with no basis in fact or reality. From the BBC itself:

    Putin's address has raised fears that some men of fighting age would not be allowed to leave Russia, even though the country's defence minister said the call-up would be limited to those with combat experience.
    Direct flights from Moscow to Istanbul in Turkey and Yerevan in Armenia - both destinations that allow Russians to enter without a visa - have sold out for today, although of course it's impossible to know when the flights were bought.


    I appreciate the forum member who felt i would be interested in his shipping career, and all the links he sent me; but as previously stated, it is clear to those that do know, he often posts completely misleading information.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •