Ukraine

[Johan R]

I believe that last sentence.I also believe you may not be Swedish,so how about telling us what nationality your passport describes you as?In any language you feel comfortable using.

This thread is supposed to be about Ukraine. NOT ME. And this guy has shown himself to be a hypocrite and also a liar.

his purpose here is not to inform nor discuss anything, but rather to disrupt

Request and demand are different words with different meanings. It is no big deal to simply say that you aren't Swedish, and if asked again by someone who hasn't read all of your posts, to say again that you aren't Swedish. In fact, most here would go further and say what is their nationality. This is a small forum, people enjoy hearing about where people grew up, where they have lived, where they are living.

Nothing to do with Ukraine. You are not paying attention, no one is enjoying off topic tangents. YOU and others who drop off topic drive-by comments are the disruptors here. Maybe you are more concerned with your own needs. NOT about Ukraine.

Vadim joined the forum to post on Ukraine, and posted almost 250 times, solely on the Ukraine thread.

You have joined the forum and in short time have posted almost 50 times, solely on Ukraine.

Not true and still NOTHING to do with Ukraine.

[birlinn]

Keep digging, Johan.
The more you do, the less believable you are.

[George.]

So Ukraine will get three different types of heavy tanks unsuited for mud, in numbers which may or may not be enough to form a unit that makes a difference, sometime between the spring rasputitsa and next year.

I'd hate to be in charge of logistics and maintenance of such a unit.

[skuthorp]

Western oriented governments want Ukraine to win….sort of….but not so well that Putin and Russia actually feel threatened by a western oriented neighbour on it's borders. Th Donbass is a handy buffer for both sides

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

So Ukraine will get three different types of heavy tanks unsuited for mud, in numbers which may or may not be enough to form a unit that makes a difference, sometime between the spring rasputitsa and next year.

I'd hate to be in charge of logistics and maintenance of such a unit.

I think that’s called “NATO logistics”, George.

I don’t know about the Abrams and the Leopard but the Challenger was designed to fight defensively against Russian tanks attacking NATO positions; the idea was that the Challengers would sit in prepared scrapes on hillsides with a commanding view and move from one such position to another. It will do the other stuff as well of course.

On the question of mud, see the ground pressure figures here:

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Spain will also send Leopards.

[George.]

NATO has to maintain three different tanks in the same unit?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Legend has it that the Challenger’s turret and systems are metric and the hull and systems, including the vital tea making equipment, are BSF.

[Johan R]

. Th Donbass is a handy buffer for both sides

That would have been true if they gained their Automatous Region status, still part of Ukraine but self administered. Now, even if not recognized by the International community as Russian territory, Donbas will be full of Russians. There is no buffer zone left.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Western oriented governments want Ukraine to win….sort of….but not so well that Putin and Russia actually feel threatened by a western oriented neighbour on it's borders. Th Donbass is a handy buffer for both sides

I don’t think “buffer zones” are useful. There was no buffer zone between East and West Germany, nor was there one between the Crown Colony of Hong Kong and the People’s Republic of China.

Buffer zones are just an excuse for people to make trouble, see the history of the Scottish Borders.

[heimlaga]

This thread is supposed to be about Ukraine. NOT ME. And this guy has shown himself to be a hypocrite and also a liar.





Nothing to do with Ukraine. You are not paying attention, no one is enjoying off topic tangents. YOU and others who drop off topic drive-by comments are the disruptors here. Maybe you are more concerned with your own needs. NOT about Ukraine.



Not true and still NOTHING to do with Ukraine.

You have proven your unability to speak Swedish. You have also proven that your ability to understand Swedish is no better that what Google translate does for you. You have proven to know very little about Swedish society and Swedish law and what you think you know is often incorrect. All this while going by the typically Swedish alias Johan and claiming to be in Sweden.
You see why I am suspicious.

Then you reffuse to even try to explain who you are and what this is all about. When I asked you to do it in the typical straightforward manner used in the northern half of Sweden and among Finland Swedes you got insulted and started playing the victimisation card and accused me op paranoia. On top of that you tried to insult me using words that just wouldn't function as an insult among at least 80% of Swedes. An insult I have been told is much used among the educated class in Russia.
Suspicions grow.

When I compare your writings in this thread your "knowledge" is often refered to as base for your oppinions. Though little of that "knowledge" is ever disclosed and when it is it does not mesh with independent sources outside Russia and Ukraine. On the other hand your "knowledge" and your oppinions and your way of explaining them fits perfectly into the pattern of standard issue propaganda produced by the propaganda factories of the Russian state and it's leadership group. Propaganda designed to make people confused about what is real and what isn't.
The one such propaganda factory that is best known to us in Finland is operating in an office block in Petersburg under direct command by Evgeni Prigiritzin who probably pays the wages of the full time employees. This propaganda factory works by writing on social media and internet forums.
Suspicions are growing stronger.

I have also noted that you express yourself in English in a way that reminds a lot of your "friend" Vadim. This may of cause be a coincidence but it looks suspicious.. You react in pretty much the same way as he did when I am asking for facts and proofs to improve your credibility. Your message which you keep repeating like you were paid to do it is the same as his. Supported with lots of claims and little hard evidence. Just like he did.

Vadim's backstory as a former military man who lost his leg in Donbass and now was recieving health care and care for the stump of his amputated leg in Sweden is so unlikely that it is bordering impossible. Especially as he was spreading the same sort of pro-Putin propaganda that you spread. While the few with war wounds who have fled to Sweden have all been from the Ukrainan side in the conflict.
As a result there are strong suspicions that Johan R and Vadim are one and the same person.
The suspicions are growing.

Furthermore the anti-espionage police of Finland https://supo.fi/sv/framsida has issued warnings for Russian propaganda spread by professionals on social media and on forums and pretty much everywhere in the net.

You have put yourself in a situation where you have absolutely no credibility unless you start stacking up facts for all to see about who you are and where you are and whom you are working for and where you get your "information" from. You have refused to disclose any such information when I asked you.

The conclusion being that you must be considered a pro-Putin professional propagandist working from Russia. Until the opposite is proven.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

^ +1. ^

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Leopard II:

Germany: 14
Spain: 14
Portugal: 4
Poland: 14
Finland: x?

UK: 14 Challenger II

USA: 30 Abrams eventually

300 needed, now.

[WszystekPoTrochu]

Leopard II:
Poland: x?
300 needed, now.

Poland: most probably also 14. A standard unit. Total possessed Leos: 247. Some perspective on sending more once we get enough K9s from Korea.

the 100 Leos UA's couting on might be a number they won't get


At least the enemy fares barely better:
The UK Ministry of Defense recently alleged that Moscow might contemplate deploying a few of its cutting-edge T-14 Armata main combat tanks in Ukraine.
At the same time, the ministry claimed that the sophisticated T-14 tanks would be fielded in small numbers and solely for propaganda reasons, as Moscow is only thought to have a force of “low tens” of them.
However, in its intelligence update dated January 25, the British MoD reported that in recent months, Russian forces were hesitant to accept the first tranche of T-14 handed to them.
The explanation offered for the Russian soldiers’ reaction was that the tanks were in “poor condition.”
Although it is unclear precisely what features of the MBT sparked this response, Russian officials have previously made public statements about issues with the T-14’s engine and thermal imaging equipment

[heimlaga]

The more tanks you send to Ukraine now the fewer will need to be sent to Finland in a few years when it is our turn!

That is why Finland is sending a huge proportion of our tanks and Estonia is sending a huge proportion of it's artillery.

[dutchpp]

According to Dutch sources Germany will send 2 complete tankbataljons to Ukraine. 1 bataljon is 44 tanks so the total would be 88 tanks of the Leopard 2A6 type.
https://www.nu.nl/spanningen-oekrain...-oekraine.html

[Johan R]

Vadim's backstory as a former military man who lost his leg in Donbass and now was recieving health care and care for the stump of his amputated leg in Sweden is so unlikely that it is bordering impossible. Especially as he was spreading the same sort of pro-Putin propaganda that you spread. While the few with war wounds who have fled to Sweden have all been from the Ukrainan side in the conflict.
.

If you are unable to read and comprehend English, then you are going to remain paranoid, delusional and jump to wrong conclusions. There is no conspiracy here, no trolls, no bots, except the one inside your own head.

Who said Vadim was former military? Only you. Vadim was an aid worker. And again you make unsubstantiated claim about "Pro-Putin propaganda".

This thread is about Ukraine, and you are distracting from that.

[dutchpp]

The Google translate of the link in post #8934

Wednesday, January 25, 2023 | The latest news first on NU.nl


Germany sends two battalions of dozens of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine
By our news editors
Jan 25, 2023 at 11:52 am
Update: 4 minutes ago
628 comments


Germany is going to send two full Leopard 2A6 tank battalions to Ukraine. An initial delivery of fourteen tanks must be sent to Kyiv as soon as possible. Ukrainian soldiers will soon receive training so that they can use the tanks.
A battalion is the name for an army unit of a certain size. Normally a German tank battalion consists of about 44 Leopard-2 tanks. That would mean that Germany wants to send about 88 in total. Germany also supplies ammunition and offers to help maintain the vehicles.
The German government on Tuesday gave other European countries the green light for deliveries of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine. They need that permission, because the tanks are made in Germany.
The Leopard 2A6 tank weighs over 60 tons and is one of the most modern versions of the Leopards. It is one of the heaviest and deadliest tanks made in Europe.
Poland has already announced that it will send fourteen of the heavy tanks to Ukraine. In addition, the Dutch cabinet is looking into whether it can finance the purchase of Leopard 2 tanks to send even more tanks to the country.


Tank delivery from the United States is getting closer
A tanker delivery also seems imminent in the US. According to international media, a donation of thirty M1 Abrams tanks is being prepared, although the US government has not yet confirmed this.
The Pentagon held back support for a long time. For example, the Americans argue that their M1 Abrams are expensive to operate and difficult to maintain. Operating the complex vehicle would also require a lot of training. But the Pentagon is now convinced that Ukraine needs the tanks anyway.
At the moment, the battle in Ukraine revolves around the question of which camp has the capacity to launch the offensive after the winter. Western tanks would enable Ukraine to advance more easily and attack Russian defenses, such as bunkers.

[skuthorp]

The whiteants are hard at work Helmlaga, but pest control is slow.

[Canoez]

You have proven your unability to speak Swedish. You have also proven that your ability to understand Swedish is no better that what Google translate does for you. You have proven to know very little about Swedish society and Swedish law and what you think you know is often incorrect. All this while going by the typically Swedish alias Johan and claiming to be in Sweden.
You see why I am suspicious.

Then you reffuse to even try to explain who you are and what this is all about. When I asked you to do it in the typical straightforward manner used in the northern half of Sweden and among Finland Swedes you got insulted and started playing the victimisation card and accused me op paranoia. On top of that you tried to insult me using words that just wouldn't function as an insult among at least 80% of Swedes. An insult I have been told is much used among the educated class in Russia.
Suspicions grow.

When I compare your writings in this thread your "knowledge" is often refered to as base for your oppinions. Though little of that "knowledge" is ever disclosed and when it is it does not mesh with independent sources outside Russia and Ukraine. On the other hand your "knowledge" and your oppinions and your way of explaining them fits perfectly into the pattern of standard issue propaganda produced by the propaganda factories of the Russian state and it's leadership group. Propaganda designed to make people confused about what is real and what isn't.
The one such propaganda factory that is best known to us in Finland is operating in an office block in Petersburg under direct command by Evgeni Prigiritzin who probably pays the wages of the full time employees. This propaganda factory works by writing on social media and internet forums.
Suspicions are growing stronger.

I have also noted that you express yourself in English in a way that reminds a lot of your "friend" Vadim. This may of cause be a coincidence but it looks suspicious.. You react in pretty much the same way as he did when I am asking for facts and proofs to improve your credibility. Your message which you keep repeating like you were paid to do it is the same as his. Supported with lots of claims and little hard evidence. Just like he did.

Vadim's backstory as a former military man who lost his leg in Donbass and now was recieving health care and care for the stump of his amputated leg in Sweden is so unlikely that it is bordering impossible. Especially as he was spreading the same sort of pro-Putin propaganda that you spread. While the few with war wounds who have fled to Sweden have all been from the Ukrainan side in the conflict.
As a result there are strong suspicions that Johan R and Vadim are one and the same person.
The suspicions are growing.

Furthermore the anti-espionage police of Finland https://supo.fi/sv/framsida has issued warnings for Russian propaganda spread by professionals on social media and on forums and pretty much everywhere in the net.

You have put yourself in a situation where you have absolutely no credibility unless you start stacking up facts for all to see about who you are and where you are and whom you are working for and where you get your "information" from. You have refused to disclose any such information when I asked you.

The conclusion being that you must be considered a pro-Putin professional propagandist working from Russia. Until the opposite is proven.

^^^^
THIS!

Also, patterns of behavior and excuses are in lockstep with the previous poster.

It is an unusual person that walks into someone else's 'house' and behaves consistently the same way on threads that have a particular political focus. They don't add to the knowledge, they only disrupt and maltreat others to try to denigrate individuals we've had long association with.

[Paul Pless]

the ignore function is a wonderful thing

[Canoez]

the ignore function is a wonderful thing

Also +1. Heimlaga's post is a good reason why to use it.

[L.W. Baxter]

i don't buy the paid troll farming bit in this case.

what is forgotten is that we are almost certainly conversing with the banned member from skaraborg. quite a community of putin apologists there in sweden; a community of one.

skaraborg came here from an interest in wooden boats, and expressed opinion on diverse subjects. posted a picture once of his boat and tractor, iirc. with "johan", his devolution is complete. one can only hope for his sake it doesn't get worse.

i apologize for previous frivolity on a thread of serious subject matter, but the progression of characters is like an easy puzzle or game to pass the time.

[heimlaga]

If you are unable to read and comprehend English, then you are going to remain paranoid, delusional and jump to wrong conclusions. There is no conspiracy here, no trolls, no bots, except the one inside your own head.

Who said Vadim was former military? Only you. Vadim was an aid worker. And again you make unsubstantiated claim about "Pro-Putin propaganda".

This thread is about Ukraine, and you are distracting from that.

Suspicions are growing stronger.


There are independent reports available from theese sources:
-Refugees who have arrived in Finland and Sweden and Norway.
-Phone calls and messages from Ukrainans to their friends and families in Finland and Sweden and Norway. There were significant Ukrainan communities in many places already before the war.
-Reports from the Swedes in Kherson oblast who still maintain some contact with their old homeland. Their ancestors were deported south in 1782.
-Reports from independent journalists who speak either Ukrainan or Russian and visit Ukraine to interwiew civilian eye witnesses without the government knowing.
-Reports from The Red cross and Medecins sans Frontieres and other trustworthy charities.
-Reports from locals who drive the aid lorries to Ukraine and back.
-Reports from local ukrainans who go to Ukraine to help friends and family there.
-Returning volunteers. Some idealistic some disillusioned.
-Reports from the United Nations
-Satellite images.
-Ukrainans (some of them anti-Zelensky) writing for independent western media.

Theese reports tend to fit rather well together.

The few hard facts attributed to this obscure aid worker called Vadim does not fit together with any of theese reports. If he is a real person it is pretty obvious that he never was in the war zone in Ukraine. The only explanations I can think of is that he either is a hoax or that the got dead drunk at some railway station and fell off the train and lost his leg under a wheel and didn't want to tell this when he came home so he made up a good story.

I am able to read and comprehend English.
I am not able to comprehend why this obscure Johan in Sweden can neither comprehend nor write Swedish at all.
I am not able to comprehend why this obscure Johan in Sweden repeats Putinist propaganda over and over again.

[George Jung]

I do believe the jury is in (and has been, for a few pages).

Ignore is working great (except for the quotes).

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

The theory behind the Challenger II’s rifled barrel as opposed to the smooth barrels on other tanks is that it allows the tank to fire high explosive shaped head rounds as well as the armour piercing fin stabilised discarding sabot rounds used for tank on tank fighting. Like the insistence on having a boiling vessel for making tea in every tank, it’s become a British peculiarity.

I remember the late Sir Edward Heath telling me that the idea of European Union had come to him “in 1945, when I was sitting in a tank, having a cup of tea.” I wondered but did not ask what an artillery officer was doing inside a tank. Later I realised that he’d told me - he was having a cup of tea.

The HESH round can be fired first to blow off the explosive reactive armour before following up with a sabot round.

[David G]

The Google translate of the link in post #8934

Wednesday, January 25, 2023 | The latest news first on NU.nl


Germany sends two battalions of dozens of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine
By our news editors
Jan 25, 2023 at 11:52 am
Update: 4 minutes ago
628 comments


Germany is going to send two full Leopard 2A6 tank battalions to Ukraine. An initial delivery of fourteen tanks must be sent to Kyiv as soon as possible. Ukrainian soldiers will soon receive training so that they can use the tanks.
A battalion is the name for an army unit of a certain size. Normally a German tank battalion consists of about 44 Leopard-2 tanks. That would mean that Germany wants to send about 88 in total. Germany also supplies ammunition and offers to help maintain the vehicles.
The German government on Tuesday gave other European countries the green light for deliveries of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine. They need that permission, because the tanks are made in Germany.
The Leopard 2A6 tank weighs over 60 tons and is one of the most modern versions of the Leopards. It is one of the heaviest and deadliest tanks made in Europe.
Poland has already announced that it will send fourteen of the heavy tanks to Ukraine. In addition, the Dutch cabinet is looking into whether it can finance the purchase of Leopard 2 tanks to send even more tanks to the country.


Tank delivery from the United States is getting closer
A tanker delivery also seems imminent in the US. According to international media, a donation of thirty M1 Abrams tanks is being prepared, although the US government has not yet confirmed this.
The Pentagon held back support for a long time. For example, the Americans argue that their M1 Abrams are expensive to operate and difficult to maintain. Operating the complex vehicle would also require a lot of training. But the Pentagon is now convinced that Ukraine needs the tanks anyway.
At the moment, the battle in Ukraine revolves around the question of which camp has the capacity to launch the offensive after the winter. Western tanks would enable Ukraine to advance more easily and attack Russian defenses, such as bunkers.

The Reuters coverage --

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...tm_term=012523

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...tm_term=012523

[dutchpp]

And the Dutch government is suing the Russians before the European Court of Human Rights.

By Anna Holligan in The Hague and Laura Gozzi in London
BBC News

The European Court of Human Rights has confirmed it will hear a Dutch case against Russia over the downing of flight MH17 in 2014.

All 298 people on the Malaysia Airlines flight from Amsterdam were killed when it was shot down by a missile fired by Moscow-backed Ukrainian separatists.

The Dutch government argues that Russia's disinformation about Moscow's role in the incident is a violation of the relatives' human rights.

Russia denies the allegations.

The Boeing 777 was flying from the Dutch capital to Kuala Lumpur when it was hit by a Russian-made surface-to-air missile in July 2014 during a conflict between pro-Russia rebels and Ukrainian forces in the Donbas region of Ukraine.

The Netherlands argues that Russia played a key role in the air disaster and the case hinges on whether or not Moscow had "effective control" over the area of Ukraine where the missile was fired from.

At this stage, the ECHR's decision is only procedural and does not rule on the merits of the case, but it shows the court believes Russia can be held accountable for the human rights violations in the regions of Luhansk and Donetsk.

It could be years before a ruling is issued, but if the ECHR issues a guilty verdict against Russia, Moscow could be obliged to pay damages to the victims' relatives.

Last September, Russia stopped being party to the European Convention on Human Rights, but the court can still deal with claims against Russia regarding actions up until that date.

In November, a Dutch court at the Schiphol Judicial Complex found three men - two Russians and a Ukrainian - guilty of murder in absentia for their part in the downing of MH17.

The court concluded that the missile had been fired deliberately to bring down a plane, even if the target had been military rather than civilian.

The three men were sentenced to life in jail but are all thought to be in Russia.

Since Moscow condemned the verdict as scandalous and politically motivated it is extremely unlikely that they will be handed over to face justice.

Russia has repeatedly denied involvement in the attack.

[sandtown]

I thought that Johan's point on the vanishing buffer zones was well taken,

but you all ignored it in your rush to attack him.

I have been PM'ed by several others who you drove away from this thread . . .

why you think that is a good idea is a mystery to me.

Five or six of you seem to have zero interest in an open exchange of views.

As to Johan's point, I disagree in some respects.

The demilitarized zone along the US-Canadian border has worked reasonably well for 200 years, and the Korean DMZ has mostly held - and is quite popular wtth critters.

Faint hope I know, but I would like to see Russian military forces pulled back several hundred miles from the Ukr, Polish, Baltics, Georgia, Finnish borders . . .

NATO would do the same . .

But as Johan suggests, it may be too late for that.

[birlinn]

Suspicions are growing stronger.


There are independent reports available from theese sources:
-Refugees who have arrived in Finland and Sweden and Norway.
-Phone calls and messages from Ukrainans to their friends and families in Finland and Sweden and Norway. There were significant Ukrainan communities in many places already before the war.
-Reports from the Swedes in Kherson oblast who still maintain some contact with their old homeland. Their ancestors were deported south in 1782.
-Reports from independent journalists who speak either Ukrainan or Russian and visit Ukraine to interwiew civilian eye witnesses without the government knowing.
-Reports from The Red cross and Medecins sans Frontieres and other trustworthy charities.
-Reports from locals who drive the aid lorries to Ukraine and back.
-Reports from local ukrainans who go to Ukraine to help friends and family there.
-Returning volunteers. Some idealistic some disillusioned.
-Reports from the United Nations
-Satellite images.
-Ukrainans (some of them anti-Zelensky) writing for independent western media.

Theese reports tend to fit rather well together.

The few hard facts attributed to this obscure aid worker called Vadim does not fit together with any of theese reports. If he is a real person it is pretty obvious that he never was in the war zone in Ukraine. The only explanations I can think of is that he either is a hoax or that the got dead drunk at some railway station and fell off the train and lost his leg under a wheel and didn't want to tell this when he came home so he made up a good story.

I am able to read and comprehend English.
I am not able to comprehend why this obscure Johan in Sweden can neither comprehend nor write Swedish at all.
I am not able to comprehend why this obscure Johan in Sweden repeats Putinist propaganda over and over again.

^^ seconded

[sandtown]

Suspicions are growing stronger. .

Are you seriously suggesting that there has been no bad behavior by the Ukrainian side ??

[birlinn]

Please point to any posts making that claim.

[WszystekPoTrochu]

Leopard II:

Germany: 14
Spain: 14
Portugal: 4
Poland: 14
Finland: x?

UK: 14 Challenger II

USA: 30 Abrams eventually

300 needed, now.

Norway: 4-8 + undisclosed financing

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

A list of ten pro-Ukraine YouTube commentators, from the Kyiv Post:

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/6341#articles-sub-title-1

[heimlaga]

Are you seriously suggesting that there has been no bad behavior by the Ukrainian side ??

No I am not. Absolutely not.
Of cause there has been bad behaviour from the Ukrainian side. Not by far on the same massive and organized scale as by the Russcist side but there are several fragrant cases which should rightfully be dealt with at the international war crimes court in Haag.
"Land shall with law be built and not with projection of power" say the old Swedish laws (my translation) and that is the only sound base to start from if we are to have peace and freedom and civic rights. Equal judgment for equal crime.

What I am seriously suggesting is that we should shape our oppinions and our judgments based upon independent sources and not upon creative writing produced by Kremlin's employees who know nothing themselves.