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Thread: Ukraine

  1. #7141
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Japan didn't surrender because of the atomic bombs. They surrendered once the USSR attacked Manchuria and threatened to sweep the largest Japanese army into the sea, but only on the condition that they could keep the Emperor. The US agreed to the condition, after testing their new toys.
    Thanks for the additional info, and for supporting my rebuttal of gypsies nitpick.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  2. #7142
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    I see a lot of discussion about the war, and yes the majority are biased towards Ukraine...after all, they are the ones who have been invaded. The Russians have committed appalling atrocities against the Ukrainians that have fallen under Russian control. I am sure that the majority of Russian civilians would be equally horrified if they were told the truth. Putin has the same regard for the average Russian as Hitler had for the average German...zero.
    I can assure you that many Russians who have access to outside news are indeed horrified. Governments can only spin so much BS before it hits critical mass, and it is nowhere near that yet.

    Rumour has it Putin may step down for "health reasons", if that comes to pass, how the Duma deal with the recently annexed territory is another question. There are no shortage of hardliners willing to follow Putins ideas should they get into a position of power, finding a dealmaker will be problematic. Russian politics being what they are, people are not always vocal about their true position, given the amount of badly fitted windows.

  3. #7143
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    Having seen the result of this "pick a side" brutality, I feel the need to point it out when others give a free pass to this kind of hate speech, just because he is considered to be on "your" side. You all become hate speech apologists. Perhaps the use of the phrase much used here, "if you are not vocally saying anything against, then you are a supporter", is apt?

    Quite easy to see that anyone not bending to the majority view point is villified, and yet those who speak of irony, fail to see their own part.
    results are what matters.

    dehumanizing rhetoric on one side, moral relativism on the other. one serves to fortify resolve in some part of the population. the other serves to confuse and weaken everybody but the aggressor, absolute in his conviction.

    you can choose to think that all evil is of the same nature. but take your relativism all the way; poll people around the world, "which nation's army would you prefer to be occupied by?" or "where would you emigrate to, given the chance"? or any number of questions making relative comparisons.

    then perhaps you can learn to render useful judgments after all.

  4. #7144
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    poll people around the world, "which nation's army would you prefer to be occupied by?"
    The standard answer you'll get in central Europe is that nazi Germans were terrifying, but russians were much worse. I have yet to find an elderly that would claim the opposite
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  5. #7145
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    I've not heard any horror stories regarding the occupation of Germany by the western allied armies. Of these, I'd expect the army with the best discipline to be the preferred occupier. My prejudice say that would be the British army.
    /Erik

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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    The standard answer you'll get in central Europe is that Nazi Germans were terrifying, but Russians were much worse.
    Unless you were Jewish.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by ERGR View Post
    I've not heard any horror stories regarding the occupation of Germany by the western allied armies. Of these, I'd expect the army with the best discipline to be the preferred occupier. My prejudice say that would be the British army.
    /Erik
    isn't it more the orders than the discipline? it takes discipline to fill mass graves...

    i think the characteristic marking a relatively moral army is law written indelibly, on paper.

    the unifying characteristic of relatively immoral armies is that their law is ultimately the will of dear leader.

  8. #7148
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERGR View Post
    . My prejudice say that would be the British army.
    /Erik
    The British military paid out just £688,000 for the deaths of 289 Afghan civilians, with one family paid as little as £104 for the killing of their loved one

    Life Values: How the British Military Calculated the Cost of an Afghan Life – Byline Times

  9. #7149
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    And the Russians have paid....?
    I seem to remember they killed the odd Afghans.

  10. #7150
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    after testing their new toys
    Your attempt at snark falls pitifully short in the face of Oppenheimer's stunned comment taken from the Bhagavad Gita at Alamogordo: ' I am become Death, destroyer of worlds '.

    He and his team certainly didn't think of them as toys, and Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not tests.

    Jeesh.
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  11. #7151
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Presuming that the orders for all western armies were to obey the laws of war and behave civilised, discipline is what keeps the soldiers in line also when they are cold, hungry and frustrated.
    Even if there are laws and regulations on how the soldiers shall behave, it will not work if they are not trained to follow those regulations and if they are not enforced.

    I don't know what the Russian regulations say regarding the behaviour of the armed forces, and regulations don't really have any effect when the soldiers aren't trained to follow them and are not accompanied with officers who enforce the regulations.

    /Erik

  12. #7152
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    The British military paid . . .
    Not to mention . . . https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...cy-of-violence

  13. #7153
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    I see a lot of discussion about the war, and yes the majority are biased towards Ukraine...after all, they are the ones who have been invaded. The Russians have committed appalling atrocities against the Ukrainians that have fallen under Russian control..
    There are also very credible reports of abuses by the Ukr government against political parties, minorities, journalists, was resisters, and prisoners - from sources including the US state dept.

    But one is not permitted to post that information here lest an avalanche of abuse ensue.

  14. #7154
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    There are also very credible reports of abuses by the Ukr government against political parties, minorities, journalists, was resisters, and prisoners - from sources including the US state dept.

    But one is not permitted to post that information here lest an avalanche of abuse ensue.
    Post it rather than complain about how you’ll be treated for posting it. Actual sources mind, not just carp.

    But of course only one army and country has a choice over being there. I have less concern over an attrocity committed when defending than in attacking. Don’t really care if a woman being raped cuts the balls off her rapist during or after the attack. YMMV

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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Post it rather than complain about how you’ll be treated for posting it. Actual sources mind,

    https://thehill.com/opinion/internat...in-propaganda/

    https://time.com/5926750/azov-far-ri...ment-facebook/

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ndera/4279897/

    https://newrepublic.com/article/1176...eturns-ukraine

    https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/uk...ldiers-n198961

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/03/18...an-government/

    https://www.cnn.com/2014/03/06/opini...ght/index.html

    https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/uk...r-right-n66061

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKBN1GV2TY

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27173857

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/08/30...rs-of-freedom/

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-a-photo-essay

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...aine-neo-nazis

    https://www.thenation.com/article/ar...ith-neo-nazis/

    https://www.thenation.com/article/po...right-ukraine/

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/17...droite-venner/

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/...-azov-regiment

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/is-ame...zis-in-ukraine

    https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-azov.../29008036.html

    https://www.channel4.com/news/svobod...ment-far-right

    https://www.rferl.org/a/azov-ukraine.../29600564.html

    Revealed: ‘anti-oligarch’ Ukrainian president’s offshore connections | Volodymyr Zelenskiy | The Guardian

    Five Reasons Why Zelensky is Failing in Ukraine | The National Interest

    Ukrainian President Zelensky deepens alliance with far right - World Socialist Web Site (wsws.org)

    Ukraine: President bans opposition media Strana.ua and sanctions editor-in-chief – European Federation of Journalists (europeanjournalists.org)

    At the UN, after Zelensky's threat, journalists were reminded of the inviolability of freedom of the press - Teller Report

    From peacemaker to warmonger: Tragic downfall of Ukraine’s Volodymyr Zelensky – VT | Alternative Foreign Policy Media (veteranstoday.com)

    And my host country Sweden has just placed a new law on media publishing facts that may "embarrass" the government.....

    Sweden Expands Espionage Law, Endangering Freedom of Journalists and Whistleblowers - scheerpost.com

    When Sweden helps the CIA with illegal rendition, they do not want the citizens to know......

  16. #7156
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    From the conclusion of one of Vadim's links:

    The odious Russian media tried to paint Ukraine as a land of Nazis, though that is patently wrong. Ukraine has a thriving Jewish community, and its far-right is still on the fringe. It’s the same in America.
    I have no doubt there are Nazis in Ukraine. There are Nazis in Brazil and America and Sweden. In Sweden they even have Russia apologists. Fringes suck.

  17. #7157
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    There are also very credible reports of abuses by the Ukr government against political parties, minorities, journalists, was resisters, and prisoners - from sources including the US state dept.

    But one is not permitted to post that information here lest an avalanche of abuse ensue.
    It is my understanding that the current president of Ukraine was elected to clean up. The corruption had become intolerable to the voters. So what you describe seems to be a thing of the past.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

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    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

  18. #7158
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Unless you were Jewish.
    Wanna start a separate thread on that? I can even take a walk to the cemetery and post my great-grandpa's empty grave in there if you want
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  19. #7159
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    Wanna start a separate thread on that? I can even take a walk to the cemetery and post my great-grandpa's empty grave in there if you want
    Mikolaj, I’d read that thread. I can hardly imagine what your family and communities still live with.

    I spent a week in spring 1997 in Balatonfüred, a resort town on Lake Balaton in Hungary. I had never met an Eastern European survivor of WWII until I went to a shop with a friend and we chatted with the owner in German. (Mine is ok, my friend’s is good.) She talked about wave after wave of occupation and reoccupation by Nazis and Soviets. Her views matched what you posted. (HR Davies will be along shortly to say my story is a lie, of course.)

  20. #7160
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    It is my understanding that the current president of Ukraine was elected to clean up. The corruption had become intolerable to the voters. So what you describe seems to be a thing of the past.
    Thing of the past ?? Not hardly - here is the 2022 US State Dept human rights report on Ukraine, as well as the Russian occupied areas.

    https://www.state.gov/wp-content/upl...HTS-REPORT.pdf

    It is simply impossible for a country as corrupt at Ukr was to clean it up in a matter of a year or two, even if they really wanted to.

    If you believe that hr abuses and corruption are a thing of the past, you might want to re-evaluate your news sources.

    And here is a report on the Ukr's banning of political parties from Al Jazeera - it seems balanced to me.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2...russia-parties

    The Ukr also has attacked labor unions and labor rights, even before the Russian attack . . . does that sound like the end of corruption to you ??
    Last edited by sandtown; 11-25-2022 at 04:20 PM.

  21. #7161
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    . Actual sources mind, not just carp.
    And then they came for the gefilte fish


  22. #7162
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    There are also very credible reports of abuses by the Ukr government against political parties, minorities, journalists, was resisters, and prisoners - from sources including the US state dept.

    But one is not permitted to post that information here lest an avalanche of abuse ensue.
    No one is claiming Ukrainians are saints. Evidence dictates that the occupying Russians are worse though.
    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  23. #7163
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    In Sweden they even have Russia apologists.

    We're a small country; we don't have all necessary skills ourselves. Some skills are not easily found amongst Swedes born in-country, so we solve that by importing.
    /Erik

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    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    No one is claiming Ukrainians are saints. Evidence dictates that the occupying Russians are worse though.
    I would agree, but a clear-eyed look at the conflict means that we cannot ignore facts.

    Such as . . . from CBS https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine...s-front-lines/

    "Jonas Ohman is founder and CEO of Blue-Yellow, a Lithuania-based organization that has been meeting with and supplying frontline units with non-lethal military aid in Ukraine since the start of the conflict with Russia-backed separatists in 2014. Back in April, he estimated that just "30-40%" of the supplies coming across the border reached its final destination. But he says the situation has significantly improved since then and a much larger quantity now gets where it's supposed to go."
    Last edited by sandtown; 11-25-2022 at 04:55 PM.

  25. #7165
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    I had never met an Eastern European survivor of WWII until I went to a shop with a friend and we chatted with the owner in German. She talked about wave after wave of occupation and reoccupation by Nazis and Soviets. Her views matched what you posted. )
    I'll wager she was not Jewish.

    When I was stationed in Germany for several years in the early 1970's it was extremely rare for any of the German former POW's or veterans I met to defend anything about the Nazi War or the accompanying genocides. But I do know that such types existed.

    Compared to Japan or the US, modern Germany has at least tried to come to grips with its horrific past.

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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by ERGR View Post

    We're a small country; we don't have all necessary skills ourselves. Some skills are not easily found amongst Swedes born in-country, so we solve that by importing.
    /Erik
    Why not educate everyone on Swedens complicity and collaboration with the nazis in transporting "undesirables" on the inland railway system. Blame that on foreigners too i guess?

  27. #7167
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    Your attempt at snark falls pitifully short in the face of Oppenheimer's stunned comment taken from the Bhagavad Gita at Alamogordo: ' I am become Death, destroyer of worlds '.

    He and his team certainly didn't think of them as toys, and Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not tests.

    Jeesh.
    There is a certain kernel of truth there. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were selected, at least in part, because they had not previously been bombed. The desire was for an accurate battle damage assessment, to ascertain just what these new devices were capable of.
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Unless you were Jewish.
    Six to one half dozen of the other, I think? The word "pogrom" came from Russia, after all.

  29. #7169
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    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Japan didn't surrender because of the atomic bombs. They surrendered once the USSR attacked Manchuria and threatened to sweep the largest Japanese army into the sea, but only on the condition that they could keep the Emperor. The US agreed to the condition, after testing their new toys.
    You participated in a 5-page thread on this topic, and ought to know that the Japanese leaders rejected a proposal from their own ambassador to Russia to make peace on the one condition that they could keep the emperor. From that thread:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ight=hiroshima

    In his 2003 book,Truman's Dilemma, Paul Walker notes that the Japanese ambassador to Russia proposed to the Japanese leadership that they drop most of their demands for surrender terms and only insist on the emperor's continued reign. This was rejected. The terms Wayne keeps saying the allies should have offered were specifically rejected by the Japanese leaders in their internal discussions, and we knew this because we were reading their messages. This was not revealed for decades, because there were about 30 countries that we did not wish to know we were reading their coded messages.
    I think the record of Japan's deliberations shows that they did not surrender because of the Russian threat, because the Russians failed to show the ability in amphibious operations that would actually be a threat to the home islands. They had planned to go out in a blaze of glory when the Americans invaded, but the bomb made them think the Americans could win without invading. Go ahead and re-read that thread if you like.
    Last edited by johnw; 11-25-2022 at 05:59 PM.

  30. #7170
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    I would agree, but a clear-eyed look at the conflict means that we cannot ignore facts.

    Such as . . . from CBS https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine...s-front-lines/

    "Jonas Ohman is founder and CEO of Blue-Yellow, a Lithuania-based organization that has been meeting with and supplying frontline units with non-lethal military aid in Ukraine since the start of the conflict with Russia-backed separatists in 2014. Back in April, he estimated that just "30-40%" of the supplies coming across the border reached its final destination. But he says the situation has significantly improved since then and a much larger quantity now gets where it's supposed to go."
    That is the same with any war. The bottom line is still, Russia launched a brutal invasion of Ukraine.
    A percentage of material will go to training, and a percentage will be legitimately lost before it gets to the front.
    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  31. #7171
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Lost in all this dancing-angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin analysis is the overriding and simple fact that to give in to Putin's land grab is to sanctify similar acts by others all over the world in the future, certifying that might makes right. This, to borrow a phrase from Bush1, " cannot stand". This is, as has been mentioned before, a redux of the Sudetenland in 1938, except this time the West developed some cojones and said no.

    Whether Ukraine is a land filled with noble pink unicorns or not is entirely beside that salient point.
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  32. #7172
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    Lost in all this dancing-angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin analysis is the overriding and simple fact that to give in to Putin's land grab is to sanctify similar acts by others all over the world in the future, certifying that might makes right. This, to borrow a phrase from Bush1, " cannot stand". This is, as has been mentioned before, a redux of the Sudetenland in 1938, except this time the West developed some cojones and said no.

    Whether Ukraine is a land filled with noble pink unicorns or not is entirely beside that salient point.
    There we have it. Speaking some capital-T Truth there.

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    Lost in all this dancing-angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin analysis is the overriding and simple fact that to give in to Putin's land grab is to sanctify similar acts by others all over the world in the future, certifying that might makes right. This, to borrow a phrase from Bush1, " cannot stand". This is, as has been mentioned before, a redux of the Sudetenland in 1938, except this time the West developed some cojones and said no.

    Whether Ukraine is a land filled with noble pink unicorns or not is entirely beside that salient point.

    Amen, brother.
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    The ISW Russian offensive campaign assessment, November 25.
    https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...nt-november-25

    Key Takeaways

    • Reports of a group of understaffed and ill-supplied mobilized personnel are dividing the Russian information space.
    • President Vladimir Putin falsely presented a meeting with hand-picked women as an open discussion with mothers of mobilized personnel.
    • An investigation by Forbes’ Ukrainian service revealed that the war in Ukraine has had a serious financial impact on the Russian Federation’s annual budget.
    • The Russian MoD may have increased the frequency of POW exchanges to soothe discontent in the Russian information space.
    • A Ukrainian official confirmed that Ukrainian forces killed Iranian military advisors in Russian-occupied Crimea and threatened to target Iranian military presence on Ukrainian territory.
    • Russian military leadership may be circulating a document stating that Russia needs to mobilize five million personnel to win the war in Ukraine, which Russia cannot do.
    • Russian forces conducted limited counterattacks to regain lost positions northwest of Svatove and Russian sources claimed that Ukrainian forces continued counteroffensive operations toward Kreminna.
    • Russian forces continued to conduct offensive operations in the Bakhmut and Avdiivka areas, and influential Russian figures may be setting informational conditions to deflect blame for a lack of progress in the Bakhmut area.
    • Russian forces continued to establish defenses south of the Dnipro River in Kherson Oblast and around critical ground lines of communication (GLOCs) connecting Crimea to southern Kherson Oblast.
    • Russian sources and officials continue attempts to shape the narrative around a likely second partial mobilization while denying the potential for general mobilization.
    • Russian officials are continuing efforts to stimulate demographic change in occupied areas of Ukraine by deporting Ukrainian residents and replacing them with imported Russian citizens.

  35. #7175
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    You participated in a 5-page thread on this topic,
    I did, and no one can explain why the second bomb was dropped only 3 days after the first. Not enough time for the Japanese government to even understand what happened, let alone surrender. The invasion of Japan was slated for November, so no rush there.

    The only two plausible theories:

    - the US wanted to test a plutonium gadget on an urban area.

    - the USSR had just invaded Manchukuo and the US wanted Japan to surrender ASAP so as to not have to share the occupation like in Germany.

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