Page 108 of 119 FirstFirst ... 85898107108109118 ... LastLast
Results 3,746 to 3,780 of 4139

Thread: Ukraine

  1. #3746
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    28,606

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Paywall -- please provide relevant quotes.



    Where was the promise which you claim is being re-written, written in the first place? If the promise was oral, who made it, when and where? Assuming an oral promise would have meant anything, if given. How did something so fundamental to Russian security, as Putin claims, ever be left to rest on a mere oral promise? Something that would later be claimed to be a casus belli? Rather implausible.
    I've read the article by Prof. Joshua R. Itzkowitz Shifrinson. I'm not sure why he thinks we should act as if there was an agreement that was broken, when he says, "No formal deal was struck."

    He also says "It’s therefore not surprising that Russia was incensed when Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, the Baltic states and others were ushered into NATO membership starting in the mid-1990s."

    Ushered in? They asked to join, because they feared that exactly what is happening in Ukraine would happen to them.

    The professor notes that:

    Baker pledged in Moscow on May 18, 1990, that the United States would cooperate with the Soviet Union in the “development of a new Europe.” And in June, per talking points prepared by the NSC, Bush was telling Soviet leaders that the United States sought “a new, inclusive Europe.”
    Unfortunately, Putin has wanted nothing to do with an 'inclusive Europe.' He wants a Russian zone of influence, and has shown that he will kill to get it.

  2. #3747
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Nashville
    Posts
    30,698

    Default Re: Ukraine

    John, A point you made that resonates with me is that nothing the US or Nato does justifies invading Ukraine. Whataboutism is so tiring, weak and transparent.

    Accroding to sandtown, Russia attacked Ukraine because Nato/ U.S. was successful in allying with former Soviet dominated nations. We might discuss why so many former eastern bloc nations themselves prefer and apply for closest western ties, but even if the U.S. leveraged all of western Europe into Nato, what justification would Putin have for invading his non-Nato neighbor? One sees why the rest of the neighbors would like some backup. This was paradoxically denied to Ukraine which is the one major country in the region that can't logically be invaded because of their Nato alliances.

    Now as you reminded us, we get to guess what Ukraine feels like having given up their nuclear arsenal.

    Sandtown, in my opinion your arguments are very confused.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

  3. #3748
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,083

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I've read the article by Prof. Joshua R. Itzkowitz Shifrinson. I'm not sure why he thinks we should act as if there was an agreement that was broken, when he says, "No formal deal was struck."
    Listen, Ivan, you want a formal agreement from the US, which, if as you say is the puppet master of NATO, why then you know, because you have buildings full of researchers to tell you, people who have dedicated their lives, literally, to the accuracy of their assessments, requires that it must be submitted to the US Senate for advice and consent, 2/3, and not otherwise, beyotch, or, F off, it ain't no treaty.

    He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur . . .
    You took care of that, when? Rule of law, pal. Study up on it if you want NATO to leave you alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    He also says "It’s therefore not surprising that Russia was incensed when Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, the Baltic states and others were ushered into NATO membership starting in the mid-1990s."
    Sovereign nations may make such alliances as they choose, as Gorbachev agreed with us, at the relevant time, and told you, Pooty. No surprise there; that's what sovereign means -- ask the Brexiters you funded. Yeah, you coulda woulda shoulda got a better deal. But you were in the KBG in Berlin. Gorbachev signed on your behalf, dumb ass. It is now for you to live up to promises.

    No surprise that the Great Lost Cause Mother Russia theory is to be squished to paste and thrown on the trash heap, nor that Russia is incensed by it. By history. The Enlightenment marches on. Irreconcilable. It had to happen, and now it has. Who convinced themselves that it wouldn't, and why? Why wouldn't it, and why did they convince themselves that it wouldn't? They groped about, trying to project "European" trends of "Great Powers". We blow right past that bull S.

    No matter. After we defeat you, we gwine to reconstruct you. It will go easiest if you surrender now. Push it, and we will require your unconditional surrender.
    Last edited by Osborne Russell; 06-18-2022 at 10:11 PM.
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

  4. #3749
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,083

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    As the quote goes, if war is the answer, then it must be a bloody stupid question.
    Sometimes war is not a choice.
    And those upon whom war is thrust say, you'll not thrust it upon us again. X billion now; on to Moscow, in the fullness of time.

    Gee whiz, their bombs damaged the church that was a memorial to the Kaiser. You know, Caesar. The Czar. Hypocrites! Barbarians! Don't they appreciate that this represents the ineluctable trend of Western Civilization? There has always been a Caesar!

    Last edited by Osborne Russell; 06-18-2022 at 10:28 PM.
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

  5. #3750
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    new zealand
    Posts
    5,835

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Indeed there was . . https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...nap-story.html

    But interestingly, that history is now in the process of being re-written . . .

    And we have likewise always been at war with East Asia
    Hello! The US is NOT NATO. It is one member of an alliance with THIRTY member states. Looks to me like a bad case of promising something, with no mandate to deliver.
    Even the article you linked acknowledges that: No formal deal was struck, but from all the evidence, the quid pro quo was clear: Gorbachev acceded to Germany’s western alignment and the U.S. would limit NATO’s expansion.

    Pete
    The Ignore feature, lowering blood pressure since 1862. Ahhhhhhh.

  6. #3751
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA USA
    Posts
    16,131

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Hello! The US is NOT NATO. It is one member of an alliance with THIRTY member states. Looks to me like a bad case of promising something, with no mandate to deliver.
    Even the article you linked acknowledges that: No formal deal was struck, but from all the evidence, the quid pro quo was clear: Gorbachev acceded to Germany’s western alignment and the U.S. would limit NATO’s expansion.

    Pete

    Exactly. Such sotto vocce "understandings" last only as long as (a) the party agreeing to the understanding remains in power, or (b) as long as it benefits both parties.

    Jim Baker checked out as Secretary of State in 1992, and Bush pére checked out as POTUS in January 1993. And the Soviet Union checked out in 1991.

    Whatever "promises" Baker made to Gorbachev expired more than 30 years ago, if they ever meant anything at all. Remember, Jim Baker was an oil deal maker more than a statesman.

    To quote Wikipedia's piece:

    "In May 1990, Soviet Union's reformist leader Mikhail Gorbachev visited the U.S. for talks with President Bush; there, he agreed to allow a reunified Germany to be a part of NATO.[18] He later revealed that he had agreed to do so because James Baker promised that NATO troops would not be posted to eastern Germany and that the military alliance would not expand into Eastern Europe.[18]

    Privately, Bush ignored Baker's assurances and later pushed for NATO's eastwards expansion.[18]

    In the Bush administration, Baker was a proponent of the notion that the USSR should be kept territorially intact, arguing that it would be destabilizing to have the USSR's nuclear arsenal in multiple new states.[19] Bush and US defence secretary Dick Cheney were proponents for Soviet dissolution.[19] Soviet states forced action by holding referendums on independence.[19]
    When Ukraine became independent, Baker sought to ensure that Ukraine would give up its nuclear weapons.[19]"

    Also worth noting: NATO is a treaty organization. It doesn't "expand": nations must petition to become members, and must be unanimously approved by the member states.

    Worth discussion: why, exactly, would ex-SSRs, ex-slave states of the Russ, desire to join NATO?
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  7. #3752
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Eastern Shore
    Posts
    10,200

    Default Re: Ukraine

    A view of the Russian perspective here:

    https://wartranslated.com/what-might...ans-worldview/

    IMO, an important observation:

    This influence of the language is very important – few in Russia speak English, they are quite satisfied with the Russian language, however I know from the example of my friends how much the lack of knowledge of English narrows your horizons. In the English-speaking web you can find a huge amount of resources about a specific theme, often contradicting each other and stimulating a discussion. Conversely, with Russian sources you are almost always relying on a much smaller circle of people qualified to speak on the topic, navigating in an echo chamber with little input from the outside. That is why many Russian sources are often very limited and one-sided, which in turn affects the perception of the world by the reader and undoubtedly reflects on the general worldview of the Russians.
    It appears an interesting site.
    Steve Martinsen

  8. #3753
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    27,554

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by SMARTINSEN View Post
    A view of the Russian perspective here:

    https://wartranslated.com/what-might...ans-worldview/

    IMO, an important observation:



    It appears an interesting site.
    Thanks. Very informative.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  9. #3754
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    St. Paul, MN Mississippi River Milepost 840.2
    Posts
    14,084

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by SMARTINSEN View Post
    It appears an interesting site.
    Thanks, that was an interesting read.

    One thinks of Europe and North America as big pluralistic places, maybe because of geography and happenstance. China and Russia both seem largely inward-looking and self-centered.

    When the Soviet system collapsed Russia had an opportunity to join the West. They seemed to flirt with it, and then rejected it. When China became a manufacturing power they were invited to join the West-dominated trade regulation schemes and did so only to game the system and break the rules in its favor.

    I think it’s an open question whether democracy, enlightenment, and liberalism (in the broad sense) survive in the west. If they don’t, the alternative seems to be the brooding resentful isolationism and militarism of Russia and China. Tucker Carlson shows us the pathway by which the United States emulates them.

  10. #3755
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    the hills
    Posts
    66,703

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    John, A point you made that resonates with me is that nothing the US or Nato does justifies invading Ukraine. Whataboutism is so tiring, weak and transparent.

    Accroding to sandtown, Russia attacked Ukraine because Nato/ U.S. was successful in allying with former Soviet dominated nations. We might discuss why so many former eastern bloc nations themselves prefer and apply for closest western ties, but even if the U.S. leveraged all of western Europe into Nato, what justification would Putin have for invading his non-Nato neighbor? One sees why the rest of the neighbors would like some backup. This was paradoxically denied to Ukraine which is the one major country in the region that can't logically be invaded because of their Nato alliances.

    Now as you reminded us, we get to guess what Ukraine feels like having given up their nuclear arsenal.

    Sandtown, in my opinion your arguments are very confused.
    Whereas appeals to principles of a nation’s sovereignty that we flagrantly violate is a bit more than tiresome.

  11. #3756
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,003

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Don't read this if you don't want your preconceptions to be challenged.

    I had to laugh at the discussion above claiming that the Western media are balanced and fair . .

    https://fair.org/home/disinformation...ukraine-facts/

  12. #3757
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    29,317

    Default Re: Ukraine

    *by all appearances*, many here believe Vadim and sandtown are 'legit', their perspectives reasonable.

    I don't.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  13. #3758
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,083

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Whereas appeals to principles of a nation’s sovereignty that we flagrantly violate is a bit more than tiresome.
    Isn't asserting a violation of a principle an appeal to it? Seems like the fallacy that will not die: because people violate the speed limit, there is no speed limit.
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

  14. #3759
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,083

    Default Time to eat some words

    Ron Paul is a former Republican congressman from Texas. He was the 1988 Libertarian Party candidate for president. He must take at least some responsibility for giving his son the name "Rand" as in Anne Rand.

    Ukraine Crisis: A Nightmare Caused by US Interventionism
    by Ron Paul Posted on February 15, 2022

    But this whole thing is a farce. As I see it, here is the Ukraine crisis in a nutshell:

    Biden to Putin: “Don’t invade Ukraine.”

    Putin to Biden: “We have no intention of invading Ukraine.”

    Biden to the US media: “Putin is about to invade Ukraine!”

    Then Biden’s top officials proceed to embarrass themselves by warning that the invasion was imminent. Or it’s coming next Tuesday, or Wednesday, or surely before the end of the Olympics. Does anyone think they have any credibility left with their constant hysterical warnings? . . . What the US media will not report is that this entire crisis – and the threat of a serious war – has all been brought about by US interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine, specifically the US-backed coup that overthrew an elected government in 2014. Every bit of unrest in Ukraine proceeded from that single foolish and immoral act by the Obama Administration.

    https://original.antiwar.com/paul/20...terventionism/
    Putin launched his full-scale invasion of Ukraine two weeks later.

    "What the US media will not report is . . ."

    Seems I've heard that before.
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

  15. #3760
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,083

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by SMARTINSEN View Post
    A view of the Russian perspective here:
    Interesting color commentary, thanks. The core of the perspective consists of two words: Russian exceptionalism. The first word, "Russian", is itself background color to a more fundamental perspective, also described in two words: ignorant bigotry.

    Russians are all over former Soviet territory, and such places as Cuba and Syria, because Russia sent them there by thousands, whether they wanted to go or not, and therefore Russian is heard there. Very likely Ukrainian as well, though obviously to a lesser extent.

    Punitive transfers of population transfers handled by the Gulag[51] and the system of forced settlements in the Soviet Union were planned in accordance with the needs of the colonization of the remote and underpopulated territories of the Soviet Union. (Their large scale has led to a controversial opinion in the West that the economic growth of the Soviet Union was largely based on the slave labor of Gulag prisoners.) At the same time, on a number of occasions the workforce was transferred by non-violent means, usually by means of "recruitment" (вербовка). This kind of recruitment was regularly performed at forced settlements, where people were naturally more willing to resettle. For example, the workforce of the Donbass and Kuzbass mining basins is known to have been replenished in this way. (As a note of historical comparison, in Imperial Russia the mining workers at state mines (bergals, "бергалы", from German Bergbau, 'mining') were often recruited in lieu of military service which, for a certain period, had a term of 25 years).

    -- wikipedia, Population transfer in the Soviet Union
    Then, after forcing you to go there, they force you to come back:

    When the war ended in May 1945, millions of Soviet citizens were forcefully repatriated (against their will) into the USSR. -- ibid
    Ain't that a B
    I'm not leaving.

    -- Mike Pence

  16. #3761
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    28,606

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Don't read this if you don't want your preconceptions to be challenged.

    I had to laugh at the discussion above claiming that the Western media are balanced and fair . .

    https://fair.org/home/disinformation...ukraine-facts/
    Another straw man? No one has made the claim you're attacking. I posted a direct response to what your first link said, and you have not responded to any of the issues I've raised. Instead, you go on to the next accusation.

  17. #3762
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    28,606

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    *by all appearances*, many here believe Vadim and sandtown are 'legit', their perspectives reasonable.

    I don't.
    Based on sandtown's past posts, he's an old-style Noam Chomsky type lefty. Chosmsy's 'blame America first' philosophy has, ironically, begun to sound a lot like Tucker Carson's approach to Ukraine. Strange bedfellows.

  18. #3763
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hills of Vermont, USA
    Posts
    44,827

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Thanks, that was an interesting read.

    One thinks of Europe and North America as big pluralistic places, maybe because of geography and happenstance. China and Russia both seem largely inward-looking and self-centered.

    When the Soviet system collapsed Russia had an opportunity to join the West. They seemed to flirt with it, and then rejected it. When China became a manufacturing power they were invited to join the West-dominated trade regulation schemes and did so only to game the system and break the rules in its favor.

    I think it’s an open question whether democracy, enlightenment, and liberalism (in the broad sense) survive in the west. If they don’t, the alternative seems to be the brooding resentful isolationism and militarism of Russia and China. Tucker Carlson shows us the pathway by which the United States emulates them.
    Well - didn't you brighten up my day sir. That said, I think you make some on-point observations.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  19. #3764
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    29,317

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Yeah. *and unfortunately*, C.Ross' track record is excellent.

    Now if he'd only give a 'heads up' on the stock market.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  20. #3765
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    Broken Arrow, OK USA
    Posts
    393

    Default Re: Ukraine

    I have been following this thread from the beginning. Thanx to most of the posters for bringing great links and info. There are a couple posters, if they are real, that all I can say is "bless your heart". I won't egg them on.

    https://wartranslated.com/ I appreciate that link, of course I have to trust his translation. His story just reads as way more believable than say the Flair article that was posted.

    I don't have much to add but there is a bunch of footage from 94 in the Netflix documentary Winter on Fire. Hard to imagine the scenario as presented the bot's article. All of that footage not one of those young folks mention USA or America, only a desire to be free Europeans. There is plenty of cops beating the spit out of young peaceful protesters so even the dimwits will stay engaged long enough to get the point. I hope.
    Last edited by Catalina 22; 06-19-2022 at 06:41 PM.

  21. #3766
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    St. Paul, MN Mississippi River Milepost 840.2
    Posts
    14,084

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Yeah. *and unfortunately*, C.Ross' track record is excellent.

    Now if he'd only give a 'heads up' on the stock market.
    Buy low, sell high.

  22. #3767
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,003

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Based on sandtown's past posts, he's an old-style Noam Chomsky type lefty. Chosmsy's 'blame America first' philosophy
    You are not too far off.

    I would point out that Chomsky has been spot on correct about every US war for the past half century.

    Unlike some of ya, he has a lengthy track record of verisimilitude - as does Vets For Peace.

    Did we blame America first for Iraq 2003, Vietnam, Afghanistan ??? . . . Damn right we did.
    Last edited by sandtown; 06-20-2022 at 02:08 AM.

  23. #3768
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Poznań, Poland
    Posts
    3,230

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    You are not too far off.

    I would point out that Chomsky has been spot on correct about every US war for the past half century.

    Unlike some of ya, he has a lengthy track record of verisimilitude - as does Vets For Peace.

    Did we blame America first for Iraq 2003, Vietnam, Afghanistan ??? . . . Damn right we did.
    As far as I've seen he's also been wrong on every orcish war though
    WszystekPoTrochu's signature available only for premium forum users.

  24. #3769
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Poznań, Poland
    Posts
    3,230

  25. #3770
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    16,640

    Default Re: Ukraine

    This could get serious: Lithuania has banned the transit of Russian freight to Kaliningrad.

    Russia could well see this as a threat to its sovereign territory, and its only like 100 km from Belarus to Kaliningrad.

    This could lead to escalation, or perhaps a deal to let Ukrainian grain out of Odessa in exchange for lifting the ban?

  26. #3771
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    49,077

    Default Re: Ukraine

    We're getting closer to open war with the West. Note also a Russian spokesperson talking openly in St. Petersburg about how Russia is intentionally using famine as a weapon.

    Famine.

    tw.jpg
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  27. #3772
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Nashville
    Posts
    30,698

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Arguing with Noam.

    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

  28. #3773
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    28,606

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    You are not too far off.

    I would point out that Chomsky has been spot on correct about every US war for the past half century.

    Unlike some of ya, he has a lengthy track record of verisimilitude - as does Vets For Peace.

    Did we blame America first for Iraq 2003, Vietnam, Afghanistan ??? . . . Damn right we did.
    So what? Doesn't everybody blame America for Iraq 2003 and Vietnam?

    Why can't you answer any of the points raised in response to your earlier post? Try this one:

    #3741:

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    So, you're fine with what Russia has done because of what the U.S. has done? Personally, I've condemned many of the things my government has done, and don't think its misdeeds excuse anyone else of bad conduct.

    I absolutely cannot understand why you would think Russia gets to violate its treaties and invade Ukraine because of something America did in the past. And since it is Ukraine that will ultimately have to come to some agreement with Russia to end the war, surely it matters how much faith Ukraine can have in Russia's word.

  29. #3774
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    28,606

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    As far as I've seen he's also been wrong on every orcish war though
    I think when Russia stopped being Communist and turned Fascist, he kept quoting Russian propaganda out of habit.

  30. #3775
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    28,606

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    Arguing with Noam.

    I agree with him mostly. In particular, the critique about Chomsky being American-centric. Sometimes he gives the rest of the world so little agency, it's like he thinks America is the Illuminati, controlling everything behind the scenes.

  31. #3776
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Poznań, Poland
    Posts
    3,230

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    This could get serious: Lithuania has banned the transit of Russian freight to Kaliningrad.

    Russia could well see this as a threat to its sovereign territory, and its only like 100 km from Belarus to Kaliningrad.

    This could lead to escalation, or perhaps a deal to let Ukrainian grain out of Odessa in exchange for lifting the ban?
    This is a set of half-truths.
    1) Not all transit: only cargo, and only the kind that's connected to steel. About 40-50% of cargo can still transit.
    2) Not Lithuania: this is part of EU sanctions, Lithuania happens to be the shortest route between Kaliningrad and Belarus.

    Of course, this is still a very serious problem for the past Prussian land. Which, by the way, underwent the standard USSR treatment: erasing whatever traces of previous ownership are possible to erase.

    At the moment, Kaliningrad oblast can be only accessed by a train from Belarus that, if I'm correct, doesn't stop on EU ground. Alternatively, a plane flying over Baltic only. Cargo is heavily restricted, Russia has issues with establishing sea routes. Russians living there are no longer allowed to travel visa free to Gdańsk.
    They seem to panic buy everything they can.

    Escalation is not yet likely, I think. It is true that threats of such have been placed.
    WszystekPoTrochu's signature available only for premium forum users.

  32. #3777
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    UK. Cornwall, Suffolk.
    Posts
    9,089

    Default Re: Ukraine

    IMG_20220619_183138_102.jpg

    I saw this in Vilnius on Sunday.

  33. #3778
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
    Posts
    16,640

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    Russia has issues with establishing sea routes.
    Why?

  34. #3779
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    sweden
    Posts
    104

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Why?

    Not true. There has always been a shipping route between St Petersburg and Kaliningrad Oblast.

    Ferry line Kaliningard - St. Petersburg, cargo forwarding, logistics (transexim.ru)

    Nothing about "issues with establishing sea routes" is based on fact. Odd thing to suggest when it is easily proven false.

  35. #3780
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Poznań, Poland
    Posts
    3,230

    Default Re: Ukraine

    A route existing proves nothing. I have a car, does that mean I can move extra 200 people 200 km away in a week? The roads are there, aren't there? I do have a vehicle, don't I?
    Russians claim they'll increase the sea transit about fourfold (from two ferries to nine) until the end of the year. They just can't do it right now.

    Your
    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    Nothing about "issues with establishing sea routes" is based on fact. Odd thing to suggest when it is easily proven false.
    When they'll need literally months to cater for the basic needs - we're still not talking about addressing the issues of, say, automotive industry - they do have issues with establishing sea routes. Kaliningrad is a medium sized port that was primarily used for export. Transit of goods to Kaliningrad, including most of their industry needs, was done by rail from China and Russia. The brutes are now issuing threats similar to what they threw at Finland when it started the whole NATO business. They openly admit that land transit ban for fifty something percent of cargo is a "viable threat to their national interests", yet you're "easily disproving" it by finding a one meagre ferry?
    WszystekPoTrochu's signature available only for premium forum users.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •