Ukraine

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

A word of caution; this is George’s thread and he can delete the lot with two clicks if he likes.

[Garret]

And..... I'd disagree. these bots have one aim - disrupt the info exchange here, promote their $hitty propaganda/pro-putin carp; and on a larger scale, disrupt our society, our elections.

I see no reason to not call them out, and call them 'names' (btw - bots is what they are), at every possible opportunity. Of course, if everyone would ignore them, that'd work, too. Not gonna happen.

But treat with 'kid gloves'? Respect? WTH? I don't think so. Neither should you.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think we've done that before, no?

[Osborne Russell]

What-aboutism in this context is rationalizing of the greatest international crime, for no legitmate purpose.

If it's a human, it's worse than if it were a machine.

[sandtown]

, disrupt our society, our elections..

And we also perform satanic rituals in the basements of pizza parlors while munching on babies.

No sir, it is the pro-war side that regularly disrupts elections - Nixon, 1968; Reagan, 1980; Dubya, 2000 and so on.

[sandtown]

In the spirit of an honest exchange of views, I sometimes post articles with which I disagree, at least in part. See below . . .

The basic point that some of you fail to grasp is that every war ever fought has had those who object: this time around the US is split, Ukr is split, Russia is split . . .

Trying to drive us away with cheap stupid insults will not work - it never has.

The US left is also split, as one can see here . . .

https://www.dissentmagazine.org/onli...gainst-ukraine

The fact that the pro-war side here NEVER posts opposing views speaks volumes.

[Osborne Russell]

People have objected to past wars on countless grounds. I have, myself. It lends no force to your objections to this war.

The fact that the pro-war side here NEVER posts opposing views speaks volumes.

You want us to post a view saying what? That Ukraine should be abandoned?

[lupussonic]

Sandtown. Christ.

You still have not grasped the difference between pro-war and pro-defence.

Basic basic basic.

[WX]

In the spirit of an honest exchange of views, I sometimes post articles with which I disagree, at least in part. See below . . .

The basic point that some of you fail to grasp is that every war ever fought has had those who object: this time around the US is split, Ukr is split, Russia is split . . .

Trying to drive us away with cheap stupid insults will not work - it never has.

The US left is also split, as one can see here . . .

https://www.dissentmagazine.org/onli...gainst-ukraine

The fact that the pro-war side here NEVER posts opposing views speaks volumes.

Who is pro war?

[Landrith]

Who is pro war?

We in this forum. We couldn't even critique our foreign policy or hold the US State Department to the lowest standards of not destroying Europe and the environment in failing to save Ukraine... I don't think a straw poll among us currently could even raise an objection to the use of tactical nukes on Russian formations advancing beyond Bakhmut.

[johnw]

Who is pro war?

Apparently, Russia, which does not wish to negotiate.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/...ukraine-a80345

"We paid a lot of attention to our Chinese friends' plan," Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said on Monday, adding that: "for now, we don't see any of the conditions that are needed to bring this whole story towards peace."

[skuthorp]

I don't know about pro war, but appeasement doesn't work. The problem for America is that it has damaged its credibility in Vietnam, Grenada, Iraq, Afghanistan and a few adventures in Africa. That sort of cred. is hard to rebuild.

(and I have not forgotten Aus's. lapdog following along)

[Landrith]

(and I have not forgotten Aus's. lapdog following along)

Australia doesn't always follow along. They probably weren't going to follow W. Bush into Iraq until https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings

The US State Department probably thought they could get more Western countries to participate in Ukraine's defense and couldn't sell it.

[WX]

Australia doesn't always follow along. They probably weren't going to follow W. Bush into Iraq until https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings

The US State Department probably thought they could get more Western countries to participate in Ukraine's defense and couldn't sell it.

Howard knew 6 months before Australians went into Iraq, that they would be going. He just wouldn't admit it to the Australian people.
Britain paid off their WW2 debt to the USA in the 70s, we're still paying.

[gypsie]

The following long article about Timothy Snyder is in today's Guardian.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-trump-ukraine


It is interesting in itself but I also hope the fools here will notice that bearing witness to war is not at all the same thing as being a warmonger.

Great link JD, thank you.
Here's Snyders online history of Ukraine - linked in the article; https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...oz_1Mx1MaO6sw_

Some might benefit from meditating on Snyders mothers approach;

Snyder’s mother “has this very calming sense of moral clarity. It’s like, there are no perfect decisions in the world. There’s no space of innocence. Given the situation as it is, you make the choice and you go forward.”

[Osborne Russell]

Russian warmonger says killing is necessary.

“Among the elite, though they understand it was a mistake, they still fear to do anything themselves,” said the only Russian diplomat to publicly quit office over the war, Boris Bondarev, formerly based at Russia’s U.N. mission in Geneva. “Because they have gotten used to Putin deciding everything.”

Some are sure that Putin can maintain his hold on power without a victory, as long as he keeps the war going and wears down Western resolve and weapons supplies. For anyone in the elite to act, Bondarev said, “there needs to be an understanding that Putin is leading the country to total collapse. While Putin is still bombing and attacking, people think the situation is not so bad. There needs to be a full military loss, and only then will people understand they need to do something.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...-own-survival/

[Catalina 22]

Trolling. The trolls are very effective at shutting down this thread. Information is smothered by a fog of misdirection and discussion thwarted. It is easy to see who they are. Normal people don't post with anything like the frequency of the usual suspects and people who have something to contribute fall by the wayside

This rings true for a bunch of folks, myself included. Eventually regular honest folks tire of the BS and go somewhere else.

[sandtown]

Apparently, Russia, which does not wish to negotiate.

Sorry, that is counter-factual - it was the US that blocked negotiations back in April, making use of their wild hair lap dog from Brit.

But more than that, the sides are negotiating even as we speak - on such issues as grain shipments, prisoner exchanges and more.

Your statement is ludicrous.

[sandtown]

You still have not grasped the difference between pro-war and pro-defence. Basic basic basic.

I seem to have grasped it well enough in Vietnam (OK, I was late to that), Central America, Bosnia (but that was pretty tricky), Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and . .

In fact, I have an almost unbroken record (along with Vets For Peace) of being right on these issues for over a half century.

How about y'all ???

[lupussonic]

I seem to have grasped it well enough in Vietnam (OK, I was late to that), Central America, Bosnia (but that was pretty tricky), Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and . .

In fact, I have an almost unbroken record (along with Vets For Peace) of being right on these issues for over a half century.

How about y'all ???

ok, comprehension issues as well. i give up.

[C. Ross]

i doubt zelensky et al are interested in the chinese "peace plan".

zelensky can use a meeting with xi to get more from the west.

Likely.

Or, Zelensky steps up to the podium at a joint press conference and thanks Xi for his commitment to the full territorial sovereignty of Ukraine, and agrees to pursue peace on those terms as outlined in the Chinese plan. And Xi smiles a stiff smile. (Which is why such a joint press conference would never occur. I so not see how a meeting between Zelensky and Xi benefited China.)

[Nicholas Carey]

I think we might have missed Stefan Korshak's latest dispatch, a few days ago.

https://medium.com/@Stefan.Korshak/m...a-30f6eb55132b

[sandtown]

ok, comprehension issues as well. i give up.

As well you should - you cast aspersions rather than deal with facts and issues . . .

What do you even mean by "pro-war and pro-defence"??

Enlighten us or go away

[C. Ross]

How about y'all ???

Sir, I’ve been reading this website for 14 years. Many or most here have opposed military actions, especially by nato countries.

But let me ask: I understand you and Vets for Peace oppose all wars. Do you oppose all defense? Please don’t repeat that Ukraine caused this - there’s no convincing each other at this point. Just as a general principle, is defense as bad as attack? If not, why?

[Nicholas Carey]

Sir, I’ve been reading this website for 14 years. Many or most here have opposed military actions, especially by nato countries.

But let me ask: I understand you and Vets for Peace oppose all wars. Do you oppose all defense? Please don’t repeat that Ukraine caused this - there’s no convincing each other at this point. Just as a general principle, is defense as bad as attack? If not, why?

More interestingly, if all wars are bad and to be avoided at all costs -- meaning the victims of armed aggression should not fight back -- in what way, exactly, does that stance promulgate peace and avoid wars of aggression? And how does it not reward the aggressor?

How does that gybe with the principle of nations' self-determination, and territorial integrity?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[dutchpp]

The ISW Russian offensive campaign assessment, March 30.
https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...-march-30-2023

Key Takeaways

• Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a decree on March 30 launching the semiannual spring conscription cycle, which will conscript 147,000 Russians between April 1 and July 15.
• Russian President Vladimir Putin appointed a prominent milblogger and Russian proxy battalion commander as a regional Russian National Guard (Rosgvardia) official for Donetsk Oblast.
• Western officials reported that Wagner Group and conventional Russian forces have likely lost a substantial amount of manpower in the Bakhmut area.
• The Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) arrested Wall Street Journal correspondent Evan Gershkovich in Yekaterinburg, Sverdlovsk Oblast on charges of espionage.
• Ukrainian National Security Defense Council Secretary Oleksii Danilov stated that Ukrainian authorities do not intend to expel the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC MP) from the Kyiv-Pechersk Lavra by force.
• Russian authorities arrested Bryansk Oblast Acting Deputy Head Elena Egorova and Second Deputy Governor Tatyana Kuleshova for reportedly receiving bribes.
• Russian forces conducted limited ground attacks north of Kupyansk and along the Svatove-Kreminna line.
• Russian forces continued offensive operations in and around Bakhmut as well as along the Avdiivka-Donetsk City front.
• International Atomic Energy Agency Director (IAEA) Rafael Grossi stated that plans to ensure the safety of the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant (ZNPP) have evolved.
• Pardoned Wagner Group convicts are continuing to commit crimes in Russia following the end of their contract service with Wagner.
• Russian occupation authorities continue efforts to set conditions for September 2023 elections by further integrating occupied territories into the Russian legal apparatus.

[skuthorp]

Confine them in their own churches.

• Ukrainian National Security Defense Council Secretary Oleksii Danilov stated that Ukrainian authorities do not intend to expel the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC MP) from the Kyiv-Pechersk Lavra by force.

[George.]

I seem to have grasped it well enough in Vietnam (OK, I was late to that), Central America, Bosnia (but that was pretty tricky), Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and . .

How about Britain in 1940?

Do you think the US should not have provided them with weapons?

[Garret]

How about Britain in 1940?

Do you think the US should not have provided them with weapons?

Of course not. In fact, Britain should have started negotiations immediately & not fought back at all. At least in the world according to Sandtown.

[lupussonic]

As well you should - you cast aspersions rather than deal with facts and issues . . .

What do you even mean by "pro-war and pro-defence"??

Enlighten us or go away

Wow. Just wow.

No, I shall not waste my time explaining some very basic issues that frankly you should have grasped in early childhood.

We all realise that you have psycholigical problems brought about by all the killing you did, and the lies that you swallowed, and are now trying to attone. I for one wish you peace and healing.

But if I have to explain the difference between attack and defense to you... or why most of the world is helping a country that has been wrongly invaded..nah.

I have better things to do.

[George.]

I for one wish you peace and healing.

I am afraid he won't find peace and healing by persistently and aggressively arguing with people on an internet forum.

As the bear said, he doesn't come here for the hunting...

[sandtown]

We all realise that you have psycholigical problems brought about by all the killing you did, and the lies that you swallowed, and are now trying to attone. I for one wish you peace and healing. o.

If there is justice in the bilge, you should be flicked for that defamatory lie.

And learn how to spell.

[George Jung]

The only participants who should be 'flicked' - would be you; and your good buddy, 'Johan', a previously banned, resurrected putin troll.

A simple way to identify where you're coming from is recognizing you're guilty of all your aspersions on others. Kinda like a Republican. Irony, eh?

[George Jung]

Wow. Just wow.

No, I shall not waste my time explaining some very basic issues that frankly you should have grasped in early childhood.

We all realise that you have psycholigical problems brought about by all the killing you did, and the lies that you swallowed, and are now trying to attone. I for one wish you peace and healing.

But if I have to explain the difference between attack and defense to you... or why most of the world is helping a country that has been wrongly invaded..nah.

I have better things to do.

I do believe you've nailed it. I was thinking the same thing - ol' sandy has some deep-seated issues, undoubtedly based on guilt. Kinda messes ya up.

[sandtown]

Confine them in their own churches.

Are you also going to confine the Ukr Hungarian minority ?? And all the rest of the UKr war skeptics ??

Yes, you probably are.

[sandtown]

you're guilty of all your aspersions on others. ?

Bull Pucky. Is that an aspersion ??