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Thread: Ukraine

  1. #3711
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    What will make things better, Vadim? Not sending arms to Ukraine so that Russia can occupy more of it, bomb more Ukrainian cities to rubble, and imprison and torture more people?



    i assume you would use water if it was your own house that was burning?
    If someone breaks into my house to set it on fire, I would first shoot him, then use water.

  2. #3712
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    What will make things better, Vadim?
    My opinion/wish? A total cease fire to start with, after that everything should be on the table to end the conflict. How many conflicts do you have to see to understand that lobbing bombs does not always fix the problem. Was Afghanistan a success, Libya? Who benefitted?

    Im sorry. I see too many dead faces to think more dead people are the answer, on either side. I just want to see an end. Mine / XOD clearing will take years, and that can not be started till the bigger conflict has ended. In the meantime, more dead and people maimed.

    The silly bogan Scott Morrison wannabe who suggested someone might pop Putin has NO idea of the sentiment of the Russian people, and how counter productive (at this time) that would be. More gasoline on a fire.

    The "Do you know the correct answer?" thread is a highlight of some people with entrenched positions, who despite evidence, will not change their minds....and many of them complain about that exact quality in others.

    We should all be willing to look at our own shortcomings before lashing out.

  3. #3713
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    My opinion/wish? A total cease fire to start with, after that everything should be on the table to end the conflict.
    Right. And do you think Putin, who is firing ten times more than the other side as we have seen, is willing to cease fire and put Crimea and reparations on the table?

  4. #3714
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    "A total cease fire to start with, after that everything should be on the table to end the conflict. " Sadly, on of the things Putin has on the table is the deportation and murder of millions of Ukrainians. Some people are perfectly OK with that. I am not, so I think we should send a lot of howitzers.

    Stopping this war could increase the rate of murder and death, not decrease it. We have a moral obligation to reject solutions that make life easier for us but result in the suffering of millions and the death of tens of thousands or more.
    Yachting, the only sport where you get to be a mechanic, electrician, plumber and carpenter

  5. #3715
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    Does it really matter?

    Do you define people as to what kind of human being they are, based on where they were born?

    It seems, especially here, that nationality is used to pigeon-hole people for the need to ridicule or abuse.

    If it helps anyone sleep at night, and for the record, i was not born in Russia or Ukraine. Its irrelevant.

    A doctor did say, with the amount of Ukrainian blood transfused into me, i was "almost" a Ukrainian. Let humour be the last thing to die.
    You were graciously willing to very briefly share your story inferring personal loss and service to humanity, and for that I am grateful. This very brief mention of service and sacrifice was expressed in a somewhat removed third person form that suggested Vadim was a hero whose loss of body function while in service to others indeed did confer upon him a special status and respect for his selflessness. That, at least for the moment, seemed to lend gravitas to your commentary. Or "his" commentary as the case may be.

    You've already claimed the benefits of that courage in the dismissal of criticism from others due to your personal experiences. In that case, it would be helpful to at least share those impressions and direct personal experiences. Perhaps you could elaborate on these events to give us added context, not to mention they would be fascinating and are completely relevant in a topic headed "Ukraine." Doing so would have the additional effect, even if it matters little to you, of reinforcing the credibility of your initial statements. However, due to the remote (I could say "removed") way you stated these deeds in the third person, the story, lacking added substance and detail, now becomes rather insincere sounding. That you don't care what others think is belied by the initial statements suggesting personal sacrifice and courage in the first place. Doubtless you are brave and selfless, but your lack of follow up in reply to a desire for more detail makes your story appear gossamer and ephemeral.

    This is the perfect place to explain how you served others in Ukraine. The topic is "Ukraine." What could be more important and informative than your wartime experiences there?
    Last edited by Lew Barrett; 06-17-2022 at 12:12 PM.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

  6. #3716
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    My opinion/wish? A total cease fire to start with, after that everything should be on the table to end the conflict. How many conflicts do you have to see to understand that lobbing bombs does not always fix the problem.
    Yeah, right. (This is ponderous sarcasm, in case it gets lost in translation).

    Would you have proposed this in the fall of 1941, with Hitler's armies just outside Leningrad? That is exactly analogous to the situation we have currently. Russia launched an entirely unprovoked war of conquest on a neighboring country, and has occupied some of it. The rest of the world cannot let this stand. The only question is the most effective and least risky way to make them go back where they came from.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  7. #3717
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    ^A cease fire until the next time. And there is always a next time.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

  8. #3718
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    My opinion/wish? A total cease fire to start with, after that everything should be on the table to end the conflict. How many conflicts do you have to see to understand that lobbing bombs does not always fix the problem. Was Afghanistan a success, Libya? Who benefitted?

    Im sorry. I see too many dead faces to think more dead people are the answer, on either side. I just want to see an end. Mine / XOD clearing will take years, and that can not be started till the bigger conflict has ended. In the meantime, more dead and people maimed.

    The silly bogan Scott Morrison wannabe who suggested someone might pop Putin has NO idea of the sentiment of the Russian people, and how counter productive (at this time) that would be. More gasoline on a fire.

    The "Do you know the correct answer?" thread is a highlight of some people with entrenched positions, who despite evidence, will not change their minds....and many of them complain about that exact quality in others.

    We should all be willing to look at our own shortcomings before lashing out.
    How would you get Putin to put everything on the table? And the Ukrainian experience has been, the agreed to a cease fire while essentially ceding territory, only to have Russia to come back for more.

    Remember the Bucharest Memorandum? Russia is supposed to be a guarantor of Ukraine's territorial integrity and sovereignty. Now it claims Ukraine isn't even a real country.

    Given the history, it's going to be very hard for Ukraine to believe Russia is negotiating in good faith.

  9. #3719
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by JayInOz View Post
    So... Russia's taken Kentucky. Damn. JayInOz
    I'm pretty sure they did that long ago

    1E06E4B1-1FFA-4749-B84F-4D50BC98B0A6.jpg

  10. #3720
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Boris is in Kyiv offering a troop training programme for Ukraine.

    The prime minister met President Volodymyr Zelensky during a surprise visit to the nation's capital Kyiv.


    Downing Street said the UK-led scheme would have the potential to train up to 10,000 soldiers every 120 days.


    Mr Zelensky welcomed Mr Johnson to Kyiv, describing the PM as his country's "great friend".


    This is the prime minister's second visit to Ukraine since the Russian invasion in February.


    At a joint press conference, Mr Johnson said his visit was intended to send a clear and simple message that the UK is with the Ukrainian people.


    From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61842137

    Nick

  11. #3721
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    How would you get Putin to put everything on the table? And the Ukrainian experience has been, the agreed to a cease fire while essentially ceding territory, only to have Russia to come back for more.
    Remember the Bucharest Memorandum? Russia is supposed to be a guarantor of Ukraine's territorial integrity and sovereignty. Now it claims Ukraine isn't even a real country.
    Given the history, it's going to be very hard for Ukraine to believe Russia is negotiating in good faith.
    That is really quite one-sided. Remember the Minsk's ?? What happened there ??

  12. #3722
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Yeah, right. (This is ponderous sarcasm, in case it gets lost in translation).
    Would you have proposed this in the fall of 1941, with Hitler's armies just outside Leningrad? That is exactly analogous to the situation we have currently. Russia launched an entirely unprovoked war of conquest on a neighboring country, and has occupied some of it. The rest of the world cannot let this stand. The only question is the most effective and least risky way to make them go back where they came from.
    Seems more like 1914 to me - do you know how that went down ??

  13. #3723
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Yeah, right. (This is ponderous sarcasm, in case it gets lost in translation).

    Would you have proposed this in the fall of 1941, with Hitler's armies just outside Leningrad? That is exactly analogous to the situation we have currently. Russia launched an entirely unprovoked war of conquest on a neighboring country, and has occupied some of it. The rest of the world cannot let this stand. The only question is the most effective and least risky way to make them go back where they came from.
    wanna bet?

    i'll even show one of the goats behind one of the doors first
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  14. #3724
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    You were graciously willing to very briefly share your story inferring personal loss and service to humanity, and for that I am grateful. This very brief mention of service and sacrifice was expressed in a somewhat removed third person form that suggested Vadim was a hero whose loss of body function while in service to others indeed did confer upon him a special status and respect for his selflessness.
    At this point in time, i am suffering from PTSD, and my thoughts can often be confused due to a cocktail of pain medication. I try.

    My "story", was an outburst to a person who believed i was Russian, and for that reason was somehow fit for some kind of punishment. My ethnic Russian translator was killed 3 days before my own incident, and i had the job of "bagging up" the remains of my friend. I found the comment repulsive and offensive, without any merit or justification.

    Talking in the third person makes it easier to talk about, it also seemed appropriate way (at the time) to respond to someone elses "i think".

    No one is suggesting Vadim is a hero. Maybe Vadims parents and some of his friends think he was completely stupid to go and do the job he did, and is paying a just price. Not sure where you get that impression.

    My Russian friend was a hero if you need one, gave his life helping others without any thought offwhat passport they might have, as do most people working with NGOs. Players of "Call of Duty" need not apply.

    As to other comments. I , like everyone else here, have no idea what is going on in Putins head. I already stated i just want the killing to stop, i can not rationally debate fighting over land after dealing with the human cost. Talking from my own perspective and experience, for what that is worth, bombs did nothing to improve the situation. I do not expect, need or want any "special status or respect" for doing a job i put myself into, i would though like people to be a bit more open minded.

  15. #3725
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    wanna bet?

    i'll even show one of the goats behind one of the doors first
    Please stop. The toes i do not have anymore hurt when i laugh.

  16. #3726
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    That is really quite one-sided. Remember the Minsk's ?? What happened there ??
    The Minks agreements would not have been needed if the Russians had kept their word on the Bucharest Memorandum. And no new negotiations would be required if the Russians had abided by the Minsk agreements. Letting the Russians keep the land they've stolen has been tried, they just came back to steal more. It's going to be difficult to reach a new settlement, because Russia has a history of violating the old agreements.

  17. #3727
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    It's going to be difficult to reach a new settlement, because Russia has a history of violating the old agreements.
    Can you provide any evidence that the governments of the Russian Fed/USSR have violated, disregarded and/or blown up treaties more than the US over the past 100 years or so ??

    Why no, you cannot . . .

    The US has a far worse record in that respect.

  18. #3728
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    It's about Russia attacking Ukraine, not whatabout the US.
    /Erik

  19. #3729
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERGR View Post
    It's about Russia attacking Ukraine, not whatabout the US. /Erik
    So what is the actual history of Russian Fed/USSR adherence to agreements ???

    Neither you nor JohnB have the slightest idea.

  20. #3730
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERGR View Post
    It's about Russia attacking Ukraine, not whatabout the US.   /Erik
    So what is the actual history of Russian Fed/USSR adherence to agreements ???

    Neither you nor JohnB have the slightest idea.

  21. #3731
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Big powers sticking to treaties with small ones? What a joke. And as you say the US's own history is no good example, or ours concerning the original population.

    Humans are like that, duplicitous.

    "Given the history, it's going to be very hard for Ukraine to believe Russia is negotiating in good faith".
    John W, if it wasn't so serious that would be funny.

  22. #3732
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  23. #3733
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    It was disheartening to hear General Milley state the other day at the NATO confab in Brussels that he thinks, in the long, run Russia has the advantage, though he did qualify that by saying that in war, anything might happen. Maybe he was just stating the obvious, that in war, like many other human endeavors, size matters. Goliath is usually a safe bet.
    Steve Martinsen

  24. #3734
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    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    What will make things better, Vadim? Not sending arms to Ukraine so that Russia can occupy more of it, bomb more Ukrainian cities to rubble, and imprison and torture more people?





    If someone breaks into my house to set it on fire, I would first shoot him, then use water.
    “better”…for Americans/MIC,yearning for a remote distance conflict fighting Russia through Ukranian lives, better is continuation of warfare. It supports a couple storylines and industries we like.
    How do you get better out of awful? Less awful. It’s still awful. If the awful reality is that Russia has superior firepower to carve out a section of Ukraine and coerce civil control that’s the awful reality. Like the US had superior firepower in Iraq or Israel over Palestinians.
    If the awful reality is that Ukraine cannot push Russia back with massive foreign military aid then better is accomodating to that reality.
    I don’t know what the ground reality is over there but I don’t think Ukraine has the power to secure its own borders against Russia.

    What do you do if someone breaks into your house, and has started a fire, do you battle the fire and the arsonist delaying the time available to evacuate family and children or do you fight, fight fight risking others lives to save a burning building that is beyond your control ? What’s better then?

  25. #3735
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    The Minks agreements would not have been needed if the Russians had kept their word on the Bucharest Memorandum.
    Similarly, the Minsk accords would also not have been needed had NATO not broken its promise to not expand eastward.

  26. #3736
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Early on in this thread, I maintained that Russia would win after great losses but would not take Kiev, due to the the continuing legacy of Dr. Mikhail Kalashnikov combining the lessons of Stalingrad's small machine gun and rifle in one simple robust and easy to use system for social justice. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4500358.stm , https://twitter.com/dailymonitor/sta...895360?lang=en

    Now I think Russia cannot take Kiev or unseat the government of Ukraine and must instead settle for the Eastern provinces and the land bridge to Odessa because of the World Bank poison debt pill: "The (World) Bank is also considering a 15- month loan package of around $170 billion (through June 2023)." Ukraine and International Financial Institutions https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12107

    Putin is no stronger than Abraham Lincoln: The Civil War’s financial battles
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...ncial-battles/ I always heard that in the end, Lincoln had to agree to repay the South's war debts to European private banks to obtain from those same banks the gold to finance the victory of the Union. If Putin leaves Zelensky in power over something left of the original Ukraine, presumably Russia does not fall victim to the World Bank's poison debt pill.
    Last edited by Landrith; 06-18-2022 at 10:11 AM.

  27. #3737
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Similarly, the Minsk accords would also not have been needed had NATO not broken its promise to not expand eastward.
    I don't think that was a formal NATO policy or promise. My understanding is that is was a verbal exchange between Pappy Bush and Gorbachev but nothing codified.
    Steve Martinsen

  28. #3738
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    So what is the actual history of Russian Fed/USSR adherence to agreements ???

    Neither you nor JohnB have the slightest idea.
    How charming. The nation of Stalin and Putin and tens of millions of politically-motivated deaths.

    It’s true that they didn’t break the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact after dividing Poland with Germany. They’ve broken almost every arms and territory agreement since.

    Germane to this instance is the 1994 agreement in which Russia pledged never to attack Ukraine. https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publicat...07-I-52241.pdf

  29. #3739
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Similarly, the Minsk accords would also not have been needed had NATO not broken its promise to not expand eastward.
    There was no such promise.
    I'm not leaving.

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  30. #3740
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    There was no such promise.
    Indeed there was . . https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...nap-story.html

    But interestingly, that history is now in the process of being re-written . . .

    And we have likewise always been at war with East Asia

  31. #3741
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Can you provide any evidence that the governments of the Russian Fed/USSR have violated, disregarded and/or blown up treaties more than the US over the past 100 years or so ??

    Why no, you cannot . . .

    The US has a far worse record in that respect.
    So, you're fine with what Russia has done because of what the U.S. has done? Personally, I've condemned many of the things my government has done, and don't think its misdeeds excuse anyone else of bad conduct.

    I absolutely cannot understand why you would think Russia gets to violate its treaties and invade Ukraine because of something America did in the past. And since it is Ukraine that will ultimately have to come to some agreement with Russia to end the war, surely it matters how much faith Ukraine can have in Russia's word.

  32. #3742
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    So what is the actual history of Russian Fed/USSR adherence to agreements ???

    Neither you nor JohnB have the slightest idea.
    If you are ignorant of this history, it's your own fault. I've given you the names of the most relevant agreements, the least you could do is read the Wikipedia entries.

    And I don't see why you're bringing JohnB into the matter.

  33. #3743
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Similarly, the Minsk accords would also not have been needed had NATO not broken its promise to not expand eastward.
    The issue wasn't NATO in 2014, it was the Maidan movement, in which Ukrainians rejected closer ties to Russia and expressed a wish for closer cooperation with the EU. The threat to Russia has never been military, and I'm sure Putin has never actually feared NATO would invade Russia. He fears a free and prosperous democracy on his border, providing a counter example to the Russian system.

  34. #3744
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Paywall -- please provide relevant quotes.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    But interestingly, that history is now in the process of being re-written . . .

    And we have likewise always been at war with East Asia
    Where was the promise which you claim is being re-written, written in the first place? If the promise was oral, who made it, when and where? Assuming an oral promise would have meant anything, if given. How did something so fundamental to Russian security, as Putin claims, ever be left to rest on a mere oral promise? Something that would later be claimed to be a casus belli? Rather implausible.

    There was no promise not to enlarge NATO

    Robert Zoellick, the U.S. diplomat who helped negotiate the end of the Cold War, says Vladimir Putin’s claims about Ukraine are part of a disinformation campaign
    By Jeff Neal/HLS News Staff, March 16, 2022

    “I was in those meetings, and Gorbachev has [also] said there was no promise not to enlarge NATO,” Zoellick recalls. Soviet Foreign Minister, Eduard Shevardnadze, later president of Georgia, concurred, he says. Nor does the treaty on Germany’s unification include a limit on NATO enlargement.

    https://today.law.harvard.edu/there-...-enlarge-nato/
    I'm not leaving.

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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    Does it really matter?

    Do you define people as to what kind of human being they are, based on where they were born?

    It seems, especially here, that nationality is used to pigeon-hole people for the need to ridicule or abuse.

    If it helps anyone sleep at night, and for the record, i was not born in Russia or Ukraine. Its irrelevant.

    A doctor did say, with the amount of Ukrainian blood transfused into me, i was "almost" a Ukrainian. Let humour be the last thing to die.
    As the quote goes, if war is the answer, then it must be a bloody stupid question.
    Sometimes war is not a choice.
    I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned


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