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Thread: Ukraine

  1. #7386
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    That's the risible nature of American foreign policy Sandy, only 4-8 years long and weathervanes wildly admin. to admin. Its mostly about internal matters, not so much external, and I'm not sure it has a big priority.

  2. #7387
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    The ISW Russian offensive campaign assessment, December 4.
    https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...ent-december-4

    The Russian federation is implementing public Nazi style executions in her modus operandi

    Key Takeaways

    • Ukrainian officials have indicated that Ukrainian forces will continue counteroffensive operations over the upcoming winter.
    • Ukraine’s ability to maintain the military initiative depends on Ukrainian forces continuing counteroffensive operations in the winter of 2022-2023.
    • Russian sources reported that Ukrainian forces continued counteroffensive operations in the directions of Kreminna and Svatove.
    • Russian forces continued to conduct offensive operations around Bakhmut and Avdiivka.
    • Groups of mobilized Russian soldiers continue to disrupt Russian force generation efforts with refusals to fight, insubordination, and defiance.
    • Russian forces likely publicly executed residents in occupied Luhansk Oblast on accusations of partisan activity.
    Last edited by dutchpp; 12-05-2022 at 03:19 AM.

  3. #7388
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    "Russian forces likely publicly executed residents in occupied Luhansk Oblast on accusations of partisan activity."

    Liddice anyone? We know whose manual they are using

  4. #7389
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post

    Therefore Be It Resolved that Veterans For Peace calls for:


    No further US/NATO military assistance to Ukraine, whether arms, advisors, or “nonlethal”
    aid;


    • Removal of all NATO forces from the Russian borders and reversal of NATO decisions
    to expand rapid reaction forces and supporting infrastructure in Eastern Europe, and
    particularly in states bordering Russia;


    • A moratorium on military exercises by all parties in and around Ukraine and European
    states bordering Russia;
    But Sandtown, if Ukraine gets no further assistance, it will lose and be turned into part of Russia.

    Then Poland and Romania will border Russia, so withdraw NATO support from them too?

  5. #7390
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    So you think war was inevitable ?? If that is the case, why pursue peace at all ??

    Or maybe there should not have been an avalanche of arms sent to the region . . .

    Did that, in part, make the war a self-fulfilling prophesy??

    Does VFP trust Russia ?? No. But we do not trust the hyper-power either.
    I think given Russian inroads into Ukrainian territory, starting with Crimea, this war was inevitable.
    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  6. #7391
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Ask the Finns, Russia is not to be trusted having retained it's Czarist territorial ambitions and affection for imperial rule. Only the names have changed.

  7. #7392
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Ask the Finns, Russia is not to be trusted having retained it's Czarist territorial ambitions and affection for imperial rule. Only the names have changed.
    As I have pointed out previously, with evidence, Russia/USSR has a substantially better record of respecting treaties and agreements than the US.

    Someone must have given you a good, vigorous brain scrub.
    Last edited by sandtown; 12-05-2022 at 08:43 AM.

  8. #7393
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    As I have pointed out previously, with evidence, Russia/USSR has a substantially better record of respecting treaties and agreements than the US.

    Someone must have given you a good, vigorous brain scrub.
    You keep saying this crap, but wtf does US inability to follow treaties have to do with what’s going on? So what if Russia breaks less treaties? It’s broken enough that the countries bordering it or being occupied don’t trust them. And that has sfa to do with the US. And your anti-US opinion on the matter carries zero weight.

  9. #7394
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    You keep saying this crap, but wtf does US inability to follow treaties have to do with what’s going on?
    It's a valid response to remarks such as, "Ask the Finns, the Russians are not to be trusted."

    If you go by evidence, the US is probably the least trustworthy nation on the planet today. I can't think of a single treaty the US has not broken.

  10. #7395
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    But Sandtown, if Ukraine gets no further assistance, it will lose and be turned into part of Russia.

    Then Poland and Romania will border Russia, so withdraw NATO support from them too?
    Dissolve NATO altogether, logically.

    To open negotiations, we could discuss establishing an area of protected Russian rule, east of a line running through Germany to the top of the Adriatic.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  11. #7396
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Can't you, now? And as well-read as you and sandy claim to be.

    Surprising, isn't it?

    *We need a lil' Ruskie troll emoji.....
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  12. #7397
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    So you think war was inevitable ?? If that is the case, why pursue peace at all ??
    Why doesn't Russia pursue peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Does VFP trust Russia ?? No. But we do not trust the hyper-power either.
    OK, VFP doesn't trust either side. How does VFP propose to achieve peace, without some confidence that the two sides would make commitments and honor them? It could only be done by the certainty of massive force in reprisal for breaches. Who's going to provide that?
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  13. #7398
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Can't you, now? And as well-read as you and sandy claim to be.

    Surprising, isn't it?

    *We need a lil' Ruskie troll emoji.....
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  14. #7399
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  15. #7400
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    north atlantic treaty organization

  16. #7401
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Can't you, now? And as well-read as you and sandy claim to be.

    Surprising, isn't it?
    You can't either, or you'd point it out.

    I'm at least willing to accept the possibility that somewhere there is a treaty the US hasn't broken. I just can't think of it.

  17. #7402
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by HRDavies View Post
    You can't either, or you'd point it out.

    I'm at least willing to accept the possibility that somewhere there is a treaty the US hasn't broken. I just can't think of it.
    https://www.state.gov/treaties-in-force/
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  18. #7403
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    treaties in force

    eta: too slow

  19. #7404
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Cute But I didn't even get past "afghanistan" before I came across several broken ones

  20. #7405
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    You ain't gonna see what you don't want to see.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  21. #7406
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    the smiley face in this context is the tell of a dishonest correspondent.

    zero credibility you have, hr.

  22. #7407
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    *We need a lil' Ruskie troll emoji.....
    Why, because we sound like Gen Milley ?? And so many others ??

    Your ugly personal attacks on people who have differing views demonstrates the poverty of your arguments.

  23. #7408
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    OK, VFP doesn't trust either side. How does VFP propose to achieve peace, without some confidence that the two sides would make commitments and honor them? It could only be done by the certainty of massive force in reprisal for breaches. Who's going to provide that?
    Where was that "massive force" when the US blew off the Viet peace deal ??

    Or the OAS Charter in attacking Nicaragua, or smashing democracy in Brazil, Chile, and others ???

  24. #7409
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Where was that "massive force" when the US blew off the Viet peace deal ??

    Or the OAS Charter in attacking Nicaragua, or smashing democracy in Brazil, Chile, and others ???
    Yeah! Whatabout…..

  25. #7410
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Why, because we sound like Gen Milley ?? And so many others ??

    Your ugly personal attacks on people who have differing views demonstrates the poverty of your arguments.
    you think you sound like general milley? this might be your most fabulous delusion yet.

    oh to be a fly on the wall at the meeting of sandtown and the general. in which sandtown lectures on the u.s. blob and how the west provoked the invasion of ukraine and blocked peace negotiations and….”and…where you going, general?”

  26. #7411
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    Yeah! Whatabout…..
    Whole lotta that around here.

    Let's see. This thread is about Ukraine and the continuing invasion and warcrimes that are being committed by Russia. Have I got that right?
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  27. #7412
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    It was. Until *somebody* allowed our trolls to derail it.

    Credit, where due.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  28. #7413
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    This thread is about Ukraine and the continuing invasion and warcrimes that are being committed by Russia. Have I got that right?
    No, it was your "side" that brought up Russia's history of treaty compliance . . .

    and several of us politely corrected you.

    Then you got all hurt.

  29. #7414
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Nobody commenting on the attacks on Russian bomber bases?
    Russia says Ukraine used Russian-made drones/cruise missiles; Ukraine says they were their own home-grown.
    Last edited by birlinn; 12-05-2022 at 12:46 PM.

  30. #7415
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Sandown- just an idle thought- what % of Vets do Vets for Peace represent?

  31. #7416
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by birlinn View Post
    Nobody commenting on the attacks on Russian bomber bases?
    Russia says Ukraine used Russian-made drones; Ukraine says they were their own home-grown.
    This?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63857451
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  32. #7417
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    Also, this is interesting. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/21/w...war-river.html

    Ukrainian commandos crossing the river Dnipro to go into Indian Country.

    The most interesting thing is this. . . .
    No, the most interesting things about that photo are that it contains two fascist/Nazi symbols,

    and that the NYT conveniently left that fact out of the article. \

    I am a Times subscriber, but I do not trust them very much. Remember Judith Miller !!

    Be skeptical my friends.

    https://fair.org/home/action-alert-n...ze-in-ukraine/
    Last edited by sandtown; 12-05-2022 at 01:00 PM.

  33. #7418
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    No, it was your "side" that brought up Russia's history of treaty compliance . . .

    and several of us politely corrected you.

    Then you got all hurt.
    There's no correcting - and I'm not hurt. (Seems like projection, to me...)

    The question is, going back to the Russian Ukrainian Friendship Treaty, why does Russia feel the need to violate its agreements with Ukraine?

    Now before you become all hurt, yeah, Ukraine terminated that agreement in 2018 - four years after Russia invaded and seized Ukrainian territory, killing civilians and military personnel.

    The aggressor in this whole situation is clear - Russia.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  34. #7419
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    So. sandtown, if NATO withdraws from Russia's borders and Russia annexes the rest of Ukraine, should NATO withdraw from the new Russian border with Poland to avoid provocations?

  35. #7420
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    So. sandtown, if NATO withdraws from Russia's borders and Russia annexes the rest of Ukraine, should NATO withdraw from the new Russian border with Poland to avoid provocations?
    And then from Poland's borders after the Russkies march into Poland?

    PS: the Russians already have a border with Poland, and four other NATO countries.

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