Ukraine

[skuthorp]

That's the risible nature of American foreign policy Sandy, only 4-8 years long and weathervanes wildly admin. to admin. Its mostly about internal matters, not so much external, and I'm not sure it has a big priority.

[dutchpp]

The ISW Russian offensive campaign assessment, December 4.
https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...ent-december-4

The Russian federation is implementing public Nazi style executions in her modus operandi

Key Takeaways

• Ukrainian officials have indicated that Ukrainian forces will continue counteroffensive operations over the upcoming winter.
• Ukraine’s ability to maintain the military initiative depends on Ukrainian forces continuing counteroffensive operations in the winter of 2022-2023.
• Russian sources reported that Ukrainian forces continued counteroffensive operations in the directions of Kreminna and Svatove.
• Russian forces continued to conduct offensive operations around Bakhmut and Avdiivka.
• Groups of mobilized Russian soldiers continue to disrupt Russian force generation efforts with refusals to fight, insubordination, and defiance.
• Russian forces likely publicly executed residents in occupied Luhansk Oblast on accusations of partisan activity.

[skuthorp]

"Russian forces likely publicly executed residents in occupied Luhansk Oblast on accusations of partisan activity."

Liddice anyone? We know whose manual they are using

[George.]

Therefore Be It Resolved that Veterans For Peace calls for:


No further US/NATO military assistance to Ukraine, whether arms, advisors, or “nonlethal”
aid;


• Removal of all NATO forces from the Russian borders and reversal of NATO decisions
to expand rapid reaction forces and supporting infrastructure in Eastern Europe, and
particularly in states bordering Russia;


• A moratorium on military exercises by all parties in and around Ukraine and European
states bordering Russia;

But Sandtown, if Ukraine gets no further assistance, it will lose and be turned into part of Russia.

Then Poland and Romania will border Russia, so withdraw NATO support from them too?

[WX]

So you think war was inevitable ?? If that is the case, why pursue peace at all ??

Or maybe there should not have been an avalanche of arms sent to the region . . .

Did that, in part, make the war a self-fulfilling prophesy??

Does VFP trust Russia ?? No. But we do not trust the hyper-power either.

I think given Russian inroads into Ukrainian territory, starting with Crimea, this war was inevitable.

[skuthorp]

Ask the Finns, Russia is not to be trusted having retained it's Czarist territorial ambitions and affection for imperial rule. Only the names have changed.

[sandtown]

Ask the Finns, Russia is not to be trusted having retained it's Czarist territorial ambitions and affection for imperial rule. Only the names have changed.

As I have pointed out previously, with evidence, Russia/USSR has a substantially better record of respecting treaties and agreements than the US.

Someone must have given you a good, vigorous brain scrub.

[Decourcy]

As I have pointed out previously, with evidence, Russia/USSR has a substantially better record of respecting treaties and agreements than the US.

Someone must have given you a good, vigorous brain scrub.

You keep saying this crap, but wtf does US inability to follow treaties have to do with what’s going on? So what if Russia breaks less treaties? It’s broken enough that the countries bordering it or being occupied don’t trust them. And that has sfa to do with the US. And your anti-US opinion on the matter carries zero weight.

[HRDavies]

You keep saying this crap, but wtf does US inability to follow treaties have to do with what’s going on?

It's a valid response to remarks such as, "Ask the Finns, the Russians are not to be trusted."

If you go by evidence, the US is probably the least trustworthy nation on the planet today. I can't think of a single treaty the US has not broken.

[Osborne Russell]

But Sandtown, if Ukraine gets no further assistance, it will lose and be turned into part of Russia.

Then Poland and Romania will border Russia, so withdraw NATO support from them too?

Dissolve NATO altogether, logically.

To open negotiations, we could discuss establishing an area of protected Russian rule, east of a line running through Germany to the top of the Adriatic.

[George Jung]

Can't you, now? And as well-read as you and sandy claim to be.

Surprising, isn't it?

*We need a lil' Ruskie troll emoji.....

[Osborne Russell]

So you think war was inevitable ?? If that is the case, why pursue peace at all ??

Why doesn't Russia pursue peace?

Does VFP trust Russia ?? No. But we do not trust the hyper-power either.

OK, VFP doesn't trust either side. How does VFP propose to achieve peace, without some confidence that the two sides would make commitments and honor them? It could only be done by the certainty of massive force in reprisal for breaches. Who's going to provide that?

[Canoez]

Can't you, now? And as well-read as you and sandy claim to be.

Surprising, isn't it?

*We need a lil' Ruskie troll emoji.....

[George Jung]

[L.W. Baxter]

north atlantic treaty organization

[HRDavies]

Can't you, now? And as well-read as you and sandy claim to be.

Surprising, isn't it?

You can't either, or you'd point it out.

I'm at least willing to accept the possibility that somewhere there is a treaty the US hasn't broken. I just can't think of it.

[Canoez]

You can't either, or you'd point it out.

I'm at least willing to accept the possibility that somewhere there is a treaty the US hasn't broken. I just can't think of it.

https://www.state.gov/treaties-in-force/

[L.W. Baxter]

treaties in force

eta: too slow

[HRDavies]

https://www.state.gov/treaties-in-force/

Cute But I didn't even get past "afghanistan" before I came across several broken ones

[Canoez]

You ain't gonna see what you don't want to see.

[L.W. Baxter]

the smiley face in this context is the tell of a dishonest correspondent.

zero credibility you have, hr.

[sandtown]

*We need a lil' Ruskie troll emoji.....

Why, because we sound like Gen Milley ?? And so many others ??

Your ugly personal attacks on people who have differing views demonstrates the poverty of your arguments.

[sandtown]

OK, VFP doesn't trust either side. How does VFP propose to achieve peace, without some confidence that the two sides would make commitments and honor them? It could only be done by the certainty of massive force in reprisal for breaches. Who's going to provide that?

Where was that "massive force" when the US blew off the Viet peace deal ??

Or the OAS Charter in attacking Nicaragua, or smashing democracy in Brazil, Chile, and others ???

[StevenBauer]

Where was that "massive force" when the US blew off the Viet peace deal ??

Or the OAS Charter in attacking Nicaragua, or smashing democracy in Brazil, Chile, and others ???

Yeah! Whatabout…..

[L.W. Baxter]

Why, because we sound like Gen Milley ?? And so many others ??

Your ugly personal attacks on people who have differing views demonstrates the poverty of your arguments.

you think you sound like general milley? this might be your most fabulous delusion yet.

oh to be a fly on the wall at the meeting of sandtown and the general. in which sandtown lectures on the u.s. blob and how the west provoked the invasion of ukraine and blocked peace negotiations and….”and…where you going, general?”

[Canoez]

Yeah! Whatabout…..

Whole lotta that around here.

Let's see. This thread is about Ukraine and the continuing invasion and warcrimes that are being committed by Russia. Have I got that right?

[George Jung]

It was. Until *somebody* allowed our trolls to derail it.

Credit, where due.

[sandtown]

This thread is about Ukraine and the continuing invasion and warcrimes that are being committed by Russia. Have I got that right?

No, it was your "side" that brought up Russia's history of treaty compliance . . .

and several of us politely corrected you.

Then you got all hurt.

[birlinn]

Nobody commenting on the attacks on Russian bomber bases?
Russia says Ukraine used Russian-made drones/cruise missiles; Ukraine says they were their own home-grown.

[birlinn]

Sandown- just an idle thought- what % of Vets do Vets for Peace represent?

[Peerie Maa]

Nobody commenting on the attacks on Russian bomber bases?
Russia says Ukraine used Russian-made drones; Ukraine says they were their own home-grown.

This?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63857451

[sandtown]

Also, this is interesting. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/21/w...war-river.html

Ukrainian commandos crossing the river Dnipro to go into Indian Country.

The most interesting thing is this. . . .

No, the most interesting things about that photo are that it contains two fascist/Nazi symbols,

and that the NYT conveniently left that fact out of the article. \

I am a Times subscriber, but I do not trust them very much. Remember Judith Miller !!

Be skeptical my friends.

https://fair.org/home/action-alert-n...ze-in-ukraine/

[Canoez]

No, it was your "side" that brought up Russia's history of treaty compliance . . .

and several of us politely corrected you.

Then you got all hurt.

There's no correcting - and I'm not hurt. (Seems like projection, to me...)

The question is, going back to the Russian Ukrainian Friendship Treaty, why does Russia feel the need to violate its agreements with Ukraine?

Now before you become all hurt, yeah, Ukraine terminated that agreement in 2018 - four years after Russia invaded and seized Ukrainian territory, killing civilians and military personnel.

The aggressor in this whole situation is clear - Russia.

[George.]

So. sandtown, if NATO withdraws from Russia's borders and Russia annexes the rest of Ukraine, should NATO withdraw from the new Russian border with Poland to avoid provocations?

[birlinn]

So. sandtown, if NATO withdraws from Russia's borders and Russia annexes the rest of Ukraine, should NATO withdraw from the new Russian border with Poland to avoid provocations?

And then from Poland's borders after the Russkies march into Poland?

PS: the Russians already have a border with Poland, and four other NATO countries.