Ukraine

[Nicholas Carey]

Ukrainian corruption is germane to the Russo-Ukrainian War only insofar as Putin claims that as a justification for war, which it is not. Ergo, attempts to delegitimize the Ukrainian government serve Putin's purposes.

And if the shoe fits. . . .

[Osborne Russell]

The national flower of Ukraine is the sunflower but I can't talk about it because it has F all to do with Putin's invasion.

[George Jung]

Putinista. Accurate, and 'catchy'.

[skuthorp]

BBC report on the corruption news today :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64383388

It seemws that Zelensky can walk and chew gum at the same time.

And as far as Russian corruption is concerned, donald and his party anyone?
Who will cast the first stone?

[Nicholas Carey]

The national flower of Ukraine is the sunflower but I can't talk about it because it has F all to do with Putin's invasion.

I like sunflowers. You can talk about it. But trying to use it to deny Ukraine's right to exist and to defend itself, or to justify Russia's invasion because they don't like sunflowers, will result on getting called on your BS -- it's not germane to the topic at hand.

[Nicholas Carey]

It seemws that Zelensky can walk and chew gum at the same time.

And as far as Russian corruption is concerned, donald and his party anyone?
Who will cast the first stone?

A lot of us here in the 'States have been chucking rocks for at least the better part of a decade.

[sandtown]

Putinista. Accurate, and 'catchy'.

Thanks; I love to coin words and phrases.

But it is an insult, and uncivil.

[skuthorp]

The role of contempt in moden politics is interesting, if not edifying.
A creature of social media I suspect.

[WszystekPoTrochu]

That justifies nothing, but to expect a state lying between russia and the Balkans to be free of corruption is to expect a hen to have a perfect dental record


Rumor has it that, along the 10-14 Leopards from Germany and a green light to send whatever number of own other Leopard owning countries wish, a small number of Abrams will make it to Ukraine. A total of around a hundred heavy toys is expected. Formidable.

[sandtown]

Ukrainian corruption is germane to the Russo-Ukrainian War only insofar as Putin claims that as a justification for war,. .

Fractal wrongness hombre - why do you think the USG is now including auditors in Ukr to keep track of weapons supplied by the allies??

It is because a good deal of it has disappeared.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ne-2022-10-31/

[robm]

Related to corruption, it sure would be nice if UKR put a halt to the arming and training of white nationalist extremists in their country, including in their security forces.

I think we could say the same about the USA. They show up in the Canadian forces as well, but we do our best to root out the most blatant.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

We have a few of them in the British forces too. They are more outspoken after they have left. This is in part because Army culture frowns on racism and partly because the Fijian rugger player in the tent is twice your size.

[WX]

Heh. It is true that a hallmark of trolls is that they dish it out, dish it out, dish it out, then cry victimization when there is backlash.

Speaking for myself, if I claimed to be Swedish, was questioned about it by a longtime posting Swede...I'd post a few hundred words in Swedish...rather than playing the victim.

From one of his posts, I figured Rumanian....maybe.

[L.W. Baxter]

Fractal wrongness hombre - why do you think the USG is now including auditors in Ukr to keep track of weapons supplied by the allies??

It is because a good deal of it has disappeared.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ne-2022-10-31/

now reconcile this with your bald assertion that the west is purposefully withholding arms sufficient for ukraine to win in order to extend the punishment of russia at ukraine's expense.

[George Jung]

That damn petard. Gosh.

[WX]

Okay, back to the topic.
German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has decided to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine and allow other countries such as Poland to do so.
The decision concerns at least one company of Leopard 2 A6 tanks that will be provided out of Bundeswehr stocks, said Spiegel magazine, which first reported the news.
One company usually comprises 14 tanks.

[gypsie]

Fractal wrongness hombre - why do you think the USG is now including auditors in Ukr to keep track of weapons supplied by the allies??

It is because a good deal of it has disappeared.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ne-2022-10-31/

From your link;

On-site inspections are a routine part of agreements countries sign with the United States when they are provided certain weapons.

[gypsie]

Oh to have been a fly on the wall when Putin heard about the Leopards.
Well done Germany, they had a psychological mountain to climb and they did it. I think I'm the years to come we'll look in awe at Germany through this war. Their thoughtful approach and their resolve once the decide. Look at the changes already rolling in the energy sector.

[John Meachen]

I probably would too. But, if you was paying attention, you would have noticed i have made no claims and already pointed out i am not Swedish.

Still not a victim.

NOTHING TO DO WITH UKRAINE.

I believe that last sentence.I also believe you may not be Swedish,so how about telling us what nationality your passport describes you as?In any language you feel comfortable using.

[WX]

Request and demand are different words with different meanings. It is no great shakes to say that you aren't Swedish, and if asked again by someone who hasn't read all of your posts, to say again that you aren't Swedish. In fact, most here would go further and say what is their nationality. This is a small forum, people enjoy hearing about where people grew up, where they have lived, where they are living.

Vadim joined the forum to post on Ukraine, and posted almost 250 times, solely on the Ukraine thread.

You have joined the forum and in short time have posted almost 50 times, solely on Ukraine.

This is a wooden boat forum. I have met probably 30 people on the forum, all in the context of wooden boats. Numerous people on the forum, and on this thread, have been on my sailboat and sailed on my boat.

It is wooden boat people discussing Ukraine. If you are going to join the forum specifically to post on Ukraine, you shouldn't lash back at every attempt to understand why you are here.

I second that.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Oh to have been a fly on the wall when Putin heard about the Leopards.
Well done Germany, they had a psychological mountain to climb and they did it. I think I'm the years to come we'll look in awe at Germany through this war. Their thoughtful approach and their resolve once the decide. Look at the changes already rolling in the energy sector.

+1.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

The Kingdom of the Netherlands has 74 F16s in its inventory, and would like to send some of them to Ukraine.

Time for this, I think.

[Nicholas Carey]

That justifies nothing, but to expect a state lying between russia and the Balkans to be free of corruption is to expect a hen to have a perfect dental record

Corruption is standard operating procedure in a lot of the world.

My mother worked in patent/trademark law doing foreign filings, which meant that they had to work with law firms in other countries to get patents and trademarks properly registered (and an apparently byzantine process, depending on which countries you're talking about).

I remember her coming home and telling us about getting invoices from some of these partner law firms with explicit line items for the bribes and payoffs required to make stuff happen, which invoices had to be returned[1] because it's illegal under the Foreign & Corrupt Practice Act (FCPA) for an American business to pay bribes either directly or indirectly.

[1] Returned with a note that the law didn't allow them to pay for bribes, but that they should resubmit the invoice with the line items changed reflect something innocuous, or simple roll the amounts into other line items.

[Nicholas Carey]

Oh to have been a fly on the wall when Putin heard about the Leopards.

Time for a new Hitler parody like this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1MuMIyIDyk

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

More tank bollocks, this time from the USA:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...tanks-ukraine/

If the Wapo is to be believed, the USA are being at least as devious and dilatory about their tanks as the Germans have been with theirs.

Since the Wapo is paywalled, I’ll summarise the article:

1. The USA intends to contribute 30 Abrams tanks.
2. Probably towards the end of 2023, all going well
3. Instead of shipping thirty Abrams tanks from the fairly vast stockpile of such vehicles that the USA has in warehouses, including all the Abrams tanks that the US Marine Corps no longer wants, the USA will instead build thirty new tanks specially for Ukraine.

Wow.

It seems that every nation that makes a main battle tank (that’s China, Russia, South Korea, Japan, France, Germany the UK and the USA) sees its MBT as its national virility symbol. Every single one of these tanks is the best in the world, is so complicated that at least a year is needed to train a driver, and probably a decade to train a mechanic, and is full of Secret Stuff.

And foreigners can’t be trusted with it unless it’s makers are trying to flog it to people who won’t use it.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

C&P:

U.S. to give Ukraine advanced M1 tanks
The American-made Abrams tanks, probably numbering at least 30, are not likely to arrive in time for an expected spring offensive, however

By Karen DeYoung, Dan Lamothe and Loveday Morris
January 24, 2023:

@The Biden administration has decided to provide M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, overriding previous concerns that the heavy battle tanks, the world’s most powerful, are too logistically burdensome for Kyiv’s forces, according to U.S. officials.
The decision, due to be announced Wednesday, comes after a rare dispute last week among Western allies over the provision of tanks made in Germany, which has been reluctant to allow its Leopard 2 main battle tanks to be transferred to Ukraine unless the United States first provides Abrams.
The U.S. vehicles, probably numbering at least 30, are unlikely to arrive by spring, when Russian forces are expected to begin a new offensive and Ukraine plans to launch its own counteroffensive to take back Russian-occupied territory. Instead, the Abrams are “probably not for the near fight,” one U.S. official said, and are not likely to arrive for many months, if not years.

“Brig. Gen. Patrick Ryder, a Pentagon spokesman, declined at a news briefing Tuesday to respond to queries about the tanks, saying “I have no announcements at this time.”
“We want to make sure [the Ukrainians] have the ability to maintain it, sustain it, train on it,” Ryder said of the Abrams. He emphasized that the administration — while “focused on what is it that Ukraine needs right now, to have an immediate effect on the battlefield” — is “continuing to have discussions about what are the medium- and long-term defense requirements.” In the last few weeks, the administration has announced it will quickly ship hundreds of armored combat vehicles to Ukraine.

“Pentagon officials have emphasized in recent weeks that they are planning how to build Kyiv’s security forces for the future. The Abramses are expected to be ordered from manufacturers, rather than transferred from existing U.S. stocks, and the main usefulness in announcing them now appeared designed to break a logjam with the Germans.
The apparent softening of the U.S. position comes amid increasingly urgent pleas from the Ukrainian government, with President Volodymyr Zelensky in the lead, for movement on the issue.”

continued below

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Wapo article continues:

“Germany said it did not want to go first, and indicated it would approve sending its own Leopards, or authorize other numerous other European countries that field the German tanks to send them, only if such a move was coordinated with the United States. Kyiv and U.S. lawmakers had both urged the Biden administration to approve even a small number of Abramses, believing it would provide Berlin with the top cover it needed to feel comfortable cooperating.
On Tuesday, Poland formally requested required German authorization to re-export 14 of its Leopard tanks to Ukraine, and a number of other European members of NATO have indicated they are prepared to do the same. German Chancellor Olaf Scholz is expected to meet with his Cabinet early Wednesday before making his own formal announcement.
One European official confirmed reports from several German news outlets, citing government and coalition officials, that Berlin has decided to deliver at least one tank company, consisting of about 14 of its own Leopards, and to grant permission to others. A German government spokesman declined to comment on the reports. Earlier Tuesday, the Wall Street Journal reported that Biden was considering moving ahead with Abrams.

“Top national security advisers from Germany, France, Britain and the United States are expected to meet Wednesday morning in Washington to discuss Ukraine. Britain has already said it would supply a small number of its Challenger 2 main battle tanks.

“NATO allies, including the United States, have agreed the heavy armor is needed, particularly as they step up training of Ukrainian forces to perform “combined arms” maneuvers as they move against entrenched Russian forces along the lengthy front line across the eastern part of the country.
NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, speaking at a news conference in Berlin on Tuesday with German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius, said that delivery of battle tanks and other armored vehicles is “urgent … because Russia is preparing new offensives.”
Stoltenberg made no mention of the Abrams, but said that allies “must provide heavier and more advanced systems so that the Ukrainian forces are able to repel the Russian forces. Not only to survive, but to win, take back territory and prevail as a sovereign, independent state in Europe.”
He was at pains to praise what Germany has given Ukraine thus far, saying that he agreed “with the Chancellor and also the [defense] minister that actually we need to remember and recognize these significant German contributions,” including sophisticated air defense and infantry fighting vehicles.
Last week, the issue occupied much of a day-long meeting at Ramstein Air Base in Germany of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group, senior defense officials from dozens of countries that support Ukraine.

“No deal on the tanks was announced after the session. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin declined to say at a news conference afterward whether he was disappointed in the apparent lack of agreement, and defended Berlin as a reliable ally. Austin noted that Scholz had said there is no linkage between the United States providing Abrams tanks and Germany providing the Leopard, and “this notion of unlocking” German tanks by requiring Abrams “is not an issue.”
[Inside the urgent push to arm Ukraine for a spring offensive]
But others said it was a major factor. Zelensky expressed exasperation with the situation, saying in a video address to the group at Ramstein that “hundreds of ‘thank you’ are not hundreds of tanks,” and that he couldn’t “use thousands of words” against Russian artillery.
In a statement later in the day, Zelensky said that, “Yes, we will still have to fight for the supply of modern tanks, but every day we make it more obvious there is no alternative to making the decision about tanks.”
Ukrainian Defense Minister Oleksii Reznikov said in an interview with The Washington Post late last year that if the United States sent even one Abrams, “like a big brother,” it would be a symbolic step that opened the door to Germany sending Leopards.
A senior U.S. defense official, informed at the time of Reznikov’s comments, said that sending even one Abrams was out of the question. It is hard for the United States to maintain the Abrams tanks and their sophisticated turbine engine, the official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the issue’s sensitivity.
For the Ukrainians, the official said, “it would be impossible.”
“

Morris reported from Berlin. Alex Horton and John Hudson contributed to this report.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

The Abrams has a German gun and British armour.

And a gas turbine, which like most other gas turbines can be unbolted and swapped for a spare one in a couple of hours.

None the less it is far too complicated for the Ukrainian armed forces.

[johnw]

Per Wikipedia's article on the M1 Abrams, politics. And some geezer named Donald Rumsfeld.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams




See also Washington Monthly's 1987 article, "The First Chrysler Bail-Out: The M1 Tank"

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+f...ank.-a04696991

You'll be amused to know that the new 'light tank' the Army wants is a diesel machine with a 105 mm gun.





The new light tank will probably weigh about twice what a WW II medium tank weighed.

[Rumars]

"We are gonna build them 30 new tanks" is code for "we are going to strip anything out of them that's considered to sensitive to fall into enemy hands and replace it with old versions". It's also a delaying tactic to not have to see the fabled hero tank of the Irak war plastered all over the news without its turret.

I said it before, don't expect miracles from the M1 and Leo 2, their combat record is not marvelous.

[Tom Hunter]

@Andrew I listened to the tank museum chat on Challenger II that you linked in another thread. I’m assuming Ukraine has 20 or so hot shot tank crews. The Challenger is a tougher tank than the Leopard. I would not want to be on the Russian side when those tanks go into action. If the Ukraine’s general are any good they will hit T72s or something even older when they attack.

No one knows how many tanks Ukraine needs to win, not even the Ukrainians.

[sandtown]

It seems that every nation that makes a main battle tank (that’s China, Russia, South Korea, Japan, France, Germany the UK and the USA) sees its MBT as its national virility symbol. Every single one of these tanks is the best in the world, is so complicated that at least a year is needed to train a driver, and probably a decade to train a mechanic, and is full of Secret Stuff.

And all of those tanks work way better than the F-35 and/or the Littoral Navy . . . .

Sure

[dutchpp]

The ISW Russian offensive campaign assessment, January 24.
https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...anuary-24-2023

Key Takeaways

• A coalition of NATO member states reportedly will send Ukraine modern main battle tanks.
• Russian Chief of the General Staff Valery Gerasimov continued efforts to portray himself and the traditional Russian military command structure as the true defenders of Russia.
• Russian outlet RBK claimed on January 23 that Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu appointed Colonel General Sergey Kuzovlev as the Southern Military District (SMD) commander and Lieutenant General Yevgeny Nikiforov as the Western Military District (WMD) commander.
• Russian forces continued limited counterattacks along the Svatove-Kreminna line and Ukrainian forces reportedly continued counteroffensive operations near Kreminna.
• Russian forces continued to conduct ground attacks in the Bakhmut and Avdiivka-Donetsk City area. Russian forces made marginal territorial gains near Bakhmut.
• Russian sources claimed, likely to distract from the lack of progress in Bakhmut, that Russian forces launched an offensive around Vuhledar.
• Russian forces likely continued to conduct limited and localized ground attacks in Zaporizhia Oblast but likely did not make territorial gains, further undermining Zaporizhia Oblast occupation official Vladimir Rogov’s prior territorial claims.
• Ukrainian special forces conducted a raid across the Dnipro River in Kherson Oblast on January 23-24.
• Russian authorities are likely continuing efforts to mobilize ethnic minorities to fight in Ukraine.
• Russia’s defense industrial base (DIB) is reportedly increasing the production of drones and loitering munitions.
• Ukrainian partisans targeted a member of the Zaporizhia occupation administration.

[StevenBauer]

Happy Birthday to Vlodimir Zelensky. Tanks for his birthday.

[WszystekPoTrochu]

It seems that every nation that makes a main battle tank (that’s China, Russia, South Korea, Japan, France, Germany the UK and the USA) sees its MBT as its national virility symbol. Every single one of these tanks is the best in the world, is so complicated that at least a year is needed to train a driver, and probably a decade to train a mechanic, and is full of Secret Stuff.

And foreigners can’t be trusted with it unless it’s makers are trying to flog it to people who won’t use it.

It's great then that third party countries can donate what they have with no delay, without fearing that their d.cks fall off.
And that same shenanigans don't apply to howitzers, SAMs and rocketry.

It was estimated that Ukraine would be provided with 100+ tanks with the currently declared package; now it seems that about half of that will be delayed until it makes much less difference than it could. Ukraine needs tanks now, the delivery time window is a very important factor. I would guess they'd happily take a 100 T-72s at once rather than 50 Western tanks now and 50 at the end of the year. The most possible outcome of slow deliveries is stalled frontline. Sure, that's better than no deliveries and the orcs spilling through.

The reserve in taken actions is infuriating.