Page 147 of 211 FirstFirst ... 4797137146147148157197 ... LastLast
Results 5,111 to 5,145 of 7372

Thread: Ukraine

  1. #5111
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    62,272

    Default Re: Ukraine

    I sincerely hope they're not that stupid.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  2. #5112
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,828

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by ERGR View Post
    Sabotaging someone elses pipeline is an act of war, as would closing the Baltic straights to any ship bound for, or coming from, a Russian port be. We'll see what rules Russia prefers.
    /Erik
    Yeah. Somebody else's pipeline.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  3. #5113
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    UK. Cornwall, Suffolk.
    Posts
    9,390

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Nordstream is owned by

    Gazprom 51% (Russia)

    Wintershall Dea 15.5% (Germany)

    EON 15.5% (Germany)

    Gasunie 9% (Netherlands)

    Engie 9% (France)




    Blam! was that my foot?

    Blam! was that my other foot?

  4. #5114
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,780

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Do we know that the US blew up those pipelines ?

    No, of course not, but it is certainly possible . . . . (from the Institute for Public Accuracy today)

    "The Nord Stream pipeline has long been in the crosshairs of Washington and the U.S. had tried to stop its construction by imposing sanctions. Before Russia invaded Ukraine on Feb. 24, President Biden [on Feb. 7] said the U.S. would 'bring an end' to the Nord Stream 2 pipeline."


    Pres. Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."


    Reporter: "But how will you do that, exactly, since...the project is in Germany's control?"


    Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do it." See video.

  5. #5115
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    29,971

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Yeah. I do believe your 'theory' has already been discredited in this thread.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  6. #5116
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Portland, Maine
    Posts
    23,219

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    It is worth stressing that the sabotage happened on Danish waters, which is where Baltic Pipe also runs. If that's their job, which seems mad but likely, picking areas around Bornholm would be their style.

    A russian trawler already damaged a fiber optic connection between Norway and Svalbard earlier this year. British military also warned about the damage risks to communication cables under the Atlantic. In that context, sabotaging own pipelines would send a message of critical infrastructure no longer being outside their scope. The pattern of starting small (Svalbard), probing for reaction, waving the gun, probing for reaction, then escalating when there's little response is indeed very orcish. If you think about the hefty fines that gazprom would need to pay to Germany for not sending gas, a "terrorist attack" voiding fines might even be a way to save money, no?

    Such an act would make them shift on the mad <--> evil scale in direction that makes me uncomfortable.
    Our news is reporting that the explosions were in International waters.

  7. #5117
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    the hills
    Posts
    67,982

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Do we know that the US blew up those pipelines ?

    No, of course not, but it is certainly possible . . . . (from the Institute for Public Accuracy today)

    "The Nord Stream pipeline has long been in the crosshairs of Washington and the U.S. had tried to stop its construction by imposing sanctions. Before Russia invaded Ukraine on Feb. 24, President Biden [on Feb. 7] said the U.S. would 'bring an end' to the Nord Stream 2 pipeline."


    Pres. Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."


    Reporter: "But how will you do that, exactly, since...the project is in Germany's control?"


    Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do it." See video.
    To what purpose?

  8. #5118
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    29,033

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Do we know that the US blew up those pipelines ?

    No, of course not, but it is certainly possible . . . . (from the Institute for Public Accuracy today)

    "The Nord Stream pipeline has long been in the crosshairs of Washington and the U.S. had tried to stop its construction by imposing sanctions. Before Russia invaded Ukraine on Feb. 24, President Biden [on Feb. 7] said the U.S. would 'bring an end' to the Nord Stream 2 pipeline."


    Pres. Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."


    Reporter: "But how will you do that, exactly, since...the project is in Germany's control?"


    Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do it." See video.
    Biden had already achieved his goal. The pipeline never opened.

  9. #5119
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    new zealand
    Posts
    6,029

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Yeah. I do believe your 'theory' has already been discredited in this thread.
    "Discredited" on no basis other than people here not wanting to believe it. Means, motive, and stated goal. Tick, tick, tick.

    Pete
    The Ignore feature, lowering blood pressure since 1862. Ahhhhhhh.

  10. #5120
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,780

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Biden had already achieved his goal. The pipeline never opened.
    Nordstream #1 was open, and that was blown up too.

  11. #5121
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,780

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    To what purpose?
    Well before the Russians invaded, the US was adamantly opposed to Nord No. 2 to the point that they were in the process of putting tough sanctions on Germany for going ahead with it.

    The US was clear at the time that they wanted Germany to be tied to the US for energy, not Russia.

    https://carnegieendowment.org/2018/0...rope-pub-77038

  12. #5122
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    29,033

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    "Discredited" on no basis other than people here not wanting to believe it. Means, motive, and stated goal. Tick, tick, tick.

    Pete
    Are you claiming that Biden said he would end Nordstream 1? His goal of making sure Nordstream 2 didn't go into use had already been achieved. On the other hand, Russia had stopped sending gas through Nordstream 1 in violation of its contracts. Since Russia apparently doesn't want to sell gas to Europe, where is the West's motivation to blow up the pipelines? If America wants Germany to hang in there on the sanctions, shouldn't we be in favor of Germany filling up its storage before winter? Looks to me like the motivation goes the other way.

    Unless you can think of a motive for America to want the Germans to freeze this winter.

  13. #5123
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    29,033

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Nordstream #1 was open, and that was blown up too.
    Precisely. This was done by someone who wants Germans to freeze.

  14. #5124
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    1,905

    Default Re: Ukraine

    For a European, it's not easy trying to get into Putin's state of mind.


    So if he's shaping the battlefield just in case he needs battlefield nukes and American has told him, do that and we'll destroy that.

    Is he saying, destroy that and I'll destroy the energy pipes into Europe with my submarines? Did he just blow up his own pipes to prove a point to Biden and NATO to make us hesitate in a response?


    The level of Russian dumb*uckery seems to be inexhaustible. Does he see a win with battlefield nukes and no NATO response as shaping a win, or a reaction and thus total war with NATO (full mobilisation and everything thrown at it) as a win - as his way out now?

  15. #5125
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    the hills
    Posts
    67,982

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Well before the Russians invaded, the US was adamantly opposed to Nord No. 2 to the point that they were in the process of putting tough sanctions on Germany for going ahead with it.

    The US was clear at the time that they wanted Germany to be tied to the US for energy, not Russia.

    https://carnegieendowment.org/2018/0...rope-pub-77038
    I don’t get that as the US couldn’t adequately provide for Germany’s NG needs.

  16. #5126
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    71,371

    Default Re: Ukraine

    I am minded of when another european dictator took control of military strategy in the field out of the hands of his own generals……..

  17. #5127
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,349

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    Our news is reporting that the explosions were in International waters.
    Not sure about that, if they were less than 12 miles from Bornholm they were in terretorial waters.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  18. #5128
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    sweden
    Posts
    299

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    I don’t get that as the US couldn’t adequately provide for Germany’s NG needs.
    It can not, but maybe that is the point.

    According to a Rand Corporation report, for the US to stay ahead of the EU, it must weaken its strongest member Germany. The report suggested the best and only way to do so was to starve Germany of gas.

    No need to attack the messenger, research it yourselves. I am not pointing fingers.

  19. #5129
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    62,272

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    According to a Rand Corporation report, for the US to stay ahead of the EU, it must weaken its strongest member Germany. The report suggested the best and only way to do so was to starve Germany of gas.
    Source? This has a distinct odor of bullsh!t, either made up entirely, or an interpretation that's very different from the actual meaning.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 09-28-2022 at 01:29 PM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  20. #5130
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    new zealand
    Posts
    6,029

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Are you claiming that Biden said he would end Nordstream 1? His goal of making sure Nordstream 2 didn't go into use had already been achieved. On the other hand, Russia had stopped sending gas through Nordstream 1 in violation of its contracts. Since Russia apparently doesn't want to sell gas to Europe, where is the West's motivation to blow up the pipelines? If America wants Germany to hang in there on the sanctions, shouldn't we be in favor of Germany filling up its storage before winter? Looks to me like the motivation goes the other way.

    Unless you can think of a motive for America to want the Germans to freeze this winter.
    Are you claiming you have a direct line into US covert ops and strategy? I don't.
    Biden made a very clear statement about NS2 though, but what he says and what he does are not necessarily the same thing.
    I think to discount the possibility is naive, unlikely and all as it may be. There is a war on, in case you haven't noticed, what's that old saw about the first casualty of war?
    I was really taking issue with the term discredited - considered highly unlikely might have been a better choice of words.

    Pete
    The Ignore feature, lowering blood pressure since 1862. Ahhhhhhh.

  21. #5131
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    1,905

    Default Re: Ukraine

    In the short term, all we can do is build onshore wind. Otherwise it's another 100 billion next year in fuel subsidy in the UK. I can't see the government can afford it. Everything else takes longer - 20 yrs for nuclear and 5-10 for offshore wind, I'd like to see the industrialisation of turbine production, stick 'em in every green field by next winter and hope the wind blows. But I don't see it. There's no physical solution on the scale of covid response that I can see here. With onshore wind they're aren't permanent, you can take them down as easily, so I'd want to see all the planning bypassed. Our gas comes from the Middle East but we seem to pay going rate prices, so I don't think our lights will go out, provided we buy it until Vlad thinks LNG tankers are also fair game.

    Our prices have risen hugely, but by being ultra careful with turning things off and still don't have heating on, my home bills have actually gone down from about £100 combined gas and electric to £70 month. Work bills have trebled.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 09-28-2022 at 01:40 PM.

  22. #5132
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hills of Vermont, USA
    Posts
    45,565

    Default Re: Ukraine

    I realize coming up with theories on who to blame is great fun - but may I point out that we have no idea who damaged the pipelines?

    Well - actually I think it was aliens from another dimension. Please prove me wrong.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  23. #5133
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    28,513

    Default Re: Ukraine

    At the moment, as I noted a few pages ago, China has a lot of “take or pay” LNG purchase contracts in the Middle East, particularly with Qatar, and China is importing less gas than before, so China is reselling cargoes to European destinations which can take gas tankers (ie, which have regasification trains in operation).
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  24. #5134
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    29,417

    Default Re: Ukraine

    The Canadians? They're desperate for NG customers. Or just a Russian soldier being careless with matches again.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  25. #5135
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    1,905

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I realize coming up with theories on who to blame is great fun - but may I point out that we have no idea who damaged the pipelines?

    Well - actually I think it was aliens from another dimension. Please prove me wrong.

    Obviously it's the German Green Party's free diving paramilitary wing.


    In reality it's in 70m of water and Norway says it was equivalent to 700kg TNT.


    The Russian's aren't saying much and if anything a denial. So they did it.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 09-28-2022 at 02:21 PM.

  26. #5136
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    29,033

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Are you claiming you have a direct line into US covert ops and strategy? I don't.
    Biden made a very clear statement about NS2 though, but what he says and what he does are not necessarily the same thing.
    I think to discount the possibility is naive, unlikely and all as it may be. There is a war on, in case you haven't noticed, what's that old saw about the first casualty of war?
    I was really taking issue with the term discredited - considered highly unlikely might have been a better choice of words.

    Pete
    I have not claimed to have the kind of specialized knowledge you seemed to be claiming for yourself. Certainly, Biden has never publicly stated the goal of ending Nordstream 1, while you appeared to be saying both acts of sabotage achieved his 'stated goal.' What is your source for this claim? Or were you trying to communicate something different from what you appeared to claim? You said America had the means, the motive, and the stated goal. I argued based on the information available through public sources that both stated goal and motive did not explain why what happened pointed to America. I find it puzzling that you think what appears to be obvious based on what little information we have requires "a direct line into US covert ops and strategy." Please explain what I have said that would require such a thing. Are you under the impression that the fact that Nordstream 2 was never put into service is some kind of secret? Do you claim that the fact that Russia has stopped shipping gas through Nordstream 1 is knowledge I could only have gained through a direct line into US covert ops and strategy?

    You attempted to ridicule what I said without answering any of my points. I believe that is because you cannot answer them. We don't know who blew up the pipelines, but your claims of 'motive and stated goal' pointing to America are just not well thought out.

  27. #5137
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia
    Posts
    13,265

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Well before the Russians invaded, the US was adamantly opposed to Nord No. 2 to the point that they were in the process of putting tough sanctions on Germany for going ahead with it.

    The US was clear at the time that they wanted Germany to be tied to the US for energy, not Russia.

    https://carnegieendowment.org/2018/0...rope-pub-77038

    Point of order Professor.

    The article you site is from the Trump Era. And we all know the crazy sh-t he said.

    The foil for your hat needs replacing.
    Skip

    ---This post is delivered with righteous passion and with a solemn southern directness --
    ...........fighting against the deliberate polarization of politics...

  28. #5138
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    29,971

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Seems this turn of events has attracted more than a few conspiracy theorists; the 'usual suspects', plus a few I wouldn't have expected.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  29. #5139
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    20,946

    Default Re: Ukraine

    could blowing pipelines be putin's strategy for controlling his own oligarchs? burn the bridge behind them, so to speak.

    i can imagine things have been dicey in the upper echelons of russian power. this could be an internal power move.

  30. #5140
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    29,971

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Good thoughts; and at this point - who knows? (If *someone* does, they're not sharing).

    But knowing the players, it would seem *some* are more likely guilty, than others - simply based on their known M.O.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  31. #5141
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,780

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by SKIP KILPATRICK View Post
    Point of order Professor.

    The article you site is from the Trump Era. And we all know the crazy sh-t he said.

    The foil for your hat needs replacing.
    Bull Pucky !! The vid I also posted shows Biden openly threatening that the US would stop Nord Two.

    At this rate, you will never make it as an internationalist.

    Try for once not to be a tool of the National Security State hyperpower.

    (I responded harshly because I took exception to your personal attack.)

  32. #5142
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    62,272

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Seriously?? Lacking real evidence, the odds that Russia (or someone in Europe, possibly even Ukraine) would sabotage a pipeline are nearly infinitely greater than that the Biden administration would try something so spectacularly idiotic.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 09-28-2022 at 04:55 PM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  33. #5143
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    29,033

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Bull Pucky !! The vid I also posted shows Biden openly threatening that the US would stop Nord Two.

    At this rate, you will never make it as an internationalist.

    Try for once not to be a tool of the National Security State hyperpower.

    (I responded harshly because I took exception to your personal attack.)
    I think we're all familiar with Biden's statement, and with the fact that his goal was already achieved because Nordstream 2 was not put into service.

    And I'm sorry to tell you, the tone of that response, with its humorless hyperbole, played into Skip's implication. A more measured response would be more convincing. I may not agree with you, but I'd like to see you make your most persuasive case.

    Plus, the article you are citing didn't age very well. The author didn't seem to think that Germany might regret getting 37% of its natural gas from Russia, but based on recent events, that prediction is not looking all that brilliant.

  34. #5144
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,349

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Bull Pucky !! The vid I also posted shows Biden openly threatening that the US would stop Nord Two.
    U R Silly.
    There are more ways to kill a cat that choking it with cream.
    What is more likely?
    • The US would send covert forces to Europe to carry out a terrorist attack.
    • Someone from a nation with a Baltic coast slipped out in a trawler, put divers down and set the explosives.

    That is the sort of thing that the French used to do, but the US of A?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  35. #5145
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    20,946

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Good thoughts; and at this point - who knows? (If *someone* does, they're not sharing).

    But knowing the players, it would seem *some* are more likely guilty, than others - simply based on their known M.O.
    it sure doesn't seem like a rational, self-interested move for any of the european states or russia.

    the idea of joe biden green lighting such a thing is risible.

    and a terrorist organization would have taken credit, no? otherwise, why?

    so, we are left with the irrational, and self-destructive. who is in a situation right now in which some self-destruction might come in handy? there is only one player i can think of. the guy pushing billionaires out of windows.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •