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Thread: Ukraine

  1. #4691
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    It seems that the possibility of Putin using nuclear weapons, or at least the discussion of it, is increasing. .
    Fact is that the US bears a major responsibility for the nuclear threat - our Blob and its backers have blocked or scuttled all manner of nuclear weapons treaties and limits.

    So sorry if that sort of talk makes you uncomfortable.

    Vets For Peace has a historic wooden boat dedicated to nuclear abolition . .

    now starting (from Minn) on an epic voyage around the Great Loop.

    Two sailors on my dock have already signed up as crew.

    http://www.vfpgoldenruleproject.org/

    Perhaps a note of clarification is in order - not everyone in VFP agrees with me about the war in Eastern Europe. We are a big tent. But if you become part of the Golden Rule crew, you will need to support the concept of nuclear weapons abolition.
    Last edited by sandtown; 09-18-2022 at 02:11 PM.

  2. #4692
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    I think somebody should give the Ukrainians a few tactical nukes of their own. That way they can share.

  3. #4693
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    I'd like to share a wicked thought with those of you who live in the UK.

    Russia is working hard to raise energy prices this is having a dangerous effect on the UK and will likely result in some people dying from cold this winter.

    Could Truss tell Putin "release 25 billion worth of natural gas or we will send 200 tanks to Ukraine" ?

    Why not play the mans own game? Your country is richer and more powerful than his, and all the Russian money is in your banks.
    Yachting, the only sport where you get to be a mechanic, electrician, plumber and carpenter

  4. #4694
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by bob winter View Post
    I think somebody should give the Ukrainians a few tactical nukes of their own. That way they can share.
    Back in 1962, how do you think the US reacted to the prospect of Russia giving "a few tactical nukes" to Cuba ??

    And the US is also sharing nuke weapons technology with the Kingdom of Saud.

    Are you OK with that ??

  5. #4695
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hunter View Post
    I'd like to share a wicked thought with those of you who live in the UK.

    Russia is working hard to raise energy prices this is having a dangerous effect on the UK and will likely result in some people dying from cold this winter.

    Could Truss tell Putin "release 25 billion worth of natural gas or we will send 200 tanks to Ukraine" ?

    Why not play the mans own game? Your country is richer and more powerful than his, and all the Russian money is in your banks.
    I like it! Even better, pay for the tanks with Russian money held in those banks

  6. #4696
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hunter View Post
    I'd like to share a wicked thought with those of you who live in the UK.

    Russia is working hard to raise energy prices this is having a dangerous effect on the UK and will likely result in some people dying from cold this winter.

    Could Truss tell Putin "release 25 billion worth of natural gas or we will send 200 tanks to Ukraine" ?

    Why not play the mans own game? Your country is richer and more powerful than his, and all the Russian money is in your banks.
    Lovely idea, Tom, but I’m not sure we actually have 200 Challenger IIs. We have sent most of the ones that do work, with their crews, to Poland, so that Poland could send their Russian ones to Ukraine, pending the arrival of the Abrams they have on order, and many of the others are being rebuilt to Challenger III spec.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  7. #4697
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    I remember 1962, it wasn't simply a question of the USSR giving a few tactical nukes to Cuba. They were also supplying troops as well as missiles.

    As to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, I think the US would be a lot better off if they got their noses out the the middle east althoghter. The area has been a botch up since the fall of Ottoman Empire and it will continue to be.

    Nobody except a simpleton can possibly believe there won't be a nuclear war at some point in time. Better to get it over with now than later.

  8. #4698
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hunter View Post
    I'd like to share a wicked thought with those of you who live in the UK.

    Russia is working hard to raise energy prices this is having a dangerous effect on the UK and will likely result in some people dying from cold this winter.

    Could Truss tell Putin "release 25 billion worth of natural gas or we will send 200 tanks to Ukraine" ?

    Why not play the mans own game? Your country is richer and more powerful than his, and all the Russian money is in your banks.
    So detached from reality, its painful to read.

    UK gets less than 4% of gas from Russia. Russia-Ukraine and UK energy: factsheet - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

    Prices have risen across the EU because Germany decided to not certify NS2, under US pressure, and increased sanctions.

    The "market" decides prices, not the Kremlin.

    People die from cold every year in the UK, this year will just be worse.

    Yet you have the audacity to call someone else a troll, and post this from an alternate universe, facts not your strong point, obviously.

  9. #4699
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by bob winter View Post

    Nobody except a simpleton can possibly believe there won't be a nuclear war at some point in time. Better to get it over with now than later.
    Im sorry, but that is the most witless comment i have seen here, and there have been a few.

    "at some point" is a very long time line, could possibly stretch to eons, in which time , mankind may have come to his senses and dismantled all nuclear weapons. To suggest "better now than later" sounds like a comment from some one with no attachment to humanity.

  10. #4700
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    I'll give sandtown a bit of credit, the US has blocked some deals to reduce the number of nuclear weapons.

    However sandtown is also very US focused, and is denying agency to other countries. That is a common error by Americans. We assume its all about us, even when it is not about us at all.

    Putin is not invading Ukraine because of the US, or inspite of the US. Putin is invading Ukraine because he wants to own it and he gets what he wants by killing people. Lots of people, some people(like his poisoning victims in the UK) tens of thousands (in the middle east), hundreds of thousands (in Ukraine he will certainly kill at least 100,000 people he has already killed between 30,000 and 50,000 Russian soldiers), or, to touch of CWSmith's very valid concern, killing everyone everywhere. It would reassure me very much if the US had any control of this (as sandtown is accidentally asserting) but I don't think we do.
    Yachting, the only sport where you get to be a mechanic, electrician, plumber and carpenter

  11. #4701
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Lovely idea, Tom, but I’m not sure we actually have 200 Challenger IIs. We have sent most of the ones that do work, with their crews, to Poland, so that Poland could send their Russian ones to Ukraine, pending the arrival of the Abrams they have on order, and many of the others are being rebuilt to Challenger III spec.
    I've been wondering about that. It seemed to me that Boris Johnson could have singlehandedly rebuilt the UK tank export business by sending 100 tanks to Ukraine last March. By now the world would be awash in video of British tanks blowing things up. Next step is to sell those tanks to people who were looking at the Abrams. Missed opportunity.
    Yachting, the only sport where you get to be a mechanic, electrician, plumber and carpenter

  12. #4702
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    I suspect "at some point" won't be all that long. Too many petty dictators and others now have their hands on nukes. A nuclear war doesn't necessarily have to be global.

    Witless is in the eye of the beholder.

  13. #4703
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Ah, but the US has been telling itself tat it's all about them since WW2 at least. All that exceptionalism etc. Plays well for internal politics but………………..
    But as an Aussie we have nothing to crow about, we've been telling the US the same thing and even organised our own political coup when there was a sniff of a threat of otherwise.

  14. #4704
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    As a personal observation, the war in the Eastern part of Ukraine does seem to have some of the qualities of the later stages of WW2. It is obviously not a civil war; it is an invasion, but some people in the occupied parts of the country have been collaborating with the invaders, and the invaders have been committing war crimes, and many of the people in the occupied areas have been removed to Russia.

    This adds a dimension of horror.
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  15. #4705
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Here’s something I had overlooked:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-62945971
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  16. #4706
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    As a personal observation,
    When was you there? What part, with who or what organisation?

  17. #4707
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Replying to ACB post 4705 "Bloodlands" by Timothy Snyder goes into that in horrifying depth.

    I'm not sure I can recommend anyone read it, its a deep look into history that is truly awful, but it is a great book and excellent work.
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  18. #4708
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    #4653: Wow, historic revisionism at its best. I suppose, just to cite one famous example, that John McCain wasn't tortured?
    "Covert Action Magazine" got that covered

    https://covertactionmagazine.com/202...eing-tortured/

    New Evidence Reveals That Senator John McCain and Other High-Ranking Vietnam War POWs May Have Lied to the American Public About Being Tortured

    Collusion by the White House, the Pentagon, and the mainstream media resulted in disparagement, denial, and suppression of eyewitness testimony confirming that most POWs were actually well-treated by their North Vietnamese captors (in contrast to the brutal torture and death often meted out to North Vietnamese POWs by U.S. forces).

    [There's more. Lots more.]
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  19. #4709
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hunter View Post
    Replying to ACB post 4705 "Bloodlands" by Timothy Snyder goes into that in horrifying depth.

    I'm not sure I can recommend anyone read it, its a deep look into history that is truly awful, but it is a great book and excellent work.
    I have ordered a copy. I am becoming quite a Snyder enthusiast.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  20. #4710
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Thank you Andrew and Tom for bring Timothy Snyder to my attention. Book ordered

  21. #4711
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Originally Posted by johnwAren't you the guy who said Boris Johnson dictated to Zelensky that he couldn't accept a peace deal? :
    No I did not "say" or write that. Fiona Hill did, likely in an unguarded moment.
    She said no such thing in the Foreign Affairs article. You clearly did not read what she wrote.

    Again, the context of the line quoted in the article you linked to:


    Despite calls by some for a negotiated settlement that would involve Ukrainian territorial concessions, Putin seems uninterested in a compromise that would leave Ukraine as a sovereign, independent state—whatever its borders. According to multiple former senior U.S. officials we spoke with, in April 2022, Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement: Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries. But as Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov stated in a July interview with his country’s state media, this compromise is no longer an option. Even giving Russia all of the Donbas is not enough. “Now the geography is different, Lavrov asserted, in describing Russia’s short-term military aims. “It’s also Kherson and the Zaporizhzhya regions and a number of other territories.” The goal is not negotiation, but Ukrainian capitulation.
    You see the difference between what she said and what Connor Echols claimed she said? In fact, I just did a word search on the cited article, and she never once used the words 'Boris Johnson.'

  22. #4712
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    speaking of "Bloodlands" Stefan Korshak's latest post (Sept 18 2022) has a very relevant video created by Ukrainian partisans promising a swift demise to those supporting the occupiers.
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  23. #4713
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Fact is that the US bears a major responsibility for the nuclear threat - our Blob and its backers have blocked or scuttled all manner of nuclear weapons treaties and limits.

    So sorry if that sort of talk makes you uncomfortable.

    Vets For Peace has a historic wooden boat dedicated to nuclear abolition . .

    now starting (from Minn) on an epic voyage around the Great Loop.

    Two sailors on my dock have already signed up as crew.

    http://www.vfpgoldenruleproject.org/

    Perhaps a note of clarification is in order - not everyone in VFP agrees with me about the war in Eastern Europe. We are a big tent. But if you become part of the Golden Rule crew, you will need to support the concept of nuclear weapons abolition.
    The problem with nuclear disarmament isn't recognizing its desirability, but in guaranteeing compliance. If you know how to do that, then I suspect a great many governments would back the idea.

    Given that Russia, China, Pakistan, Israel, and a host of other countries seem to have great difficulty with the truth, verification becomes essential. The people that I know who actually work in the field of nuclear verification (mostly at Los Alamos) are pretty smart people and still don't feel the problem is solved.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

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  24. #4714
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post

    Vets For Peace has a historic wooden boat dedicated to nuclear abolition . .

    now starting (from Minn) on an epic voyage around the Great Loop.

    Two sailors on my dock have already signed up as crew.

    http://www.vfpgoldenruleproject.org/
    That is the best demonstration of p!$$!ng in the wind that I have seen.
    Whist they have been storing their boat and preparing, North Korea has declared itself to be a (rogue) nuclear state. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-41174689
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  25. #4715
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That is the best demonstration of p!$$!ng in the wind that I have seen.
    Whist they have been storing their boat and preparing, North Korea has declared itself to be a (rogue) nuclear state. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-41174689

    Good on them! Piss is good for you....it toughens the skin!.
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

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  26. #4716
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Heard a feller online yesterday- can't find the link- saying that many hard liners in Russia who are calling for Putin to step down or be removed are doing so because they see his losses in the Ukrainian invasion as weakness and a failure. They're still all for taking Ukraine. Meanwhile- https://youtu.be/Ws42iHTEYcA JayInOz

  27. #4717
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    So now its the Ukranian military that have supply line problems?

    BTW, did I hear it right that Russia want's it abandoned and captured guns and tanks back?

  28. #4718
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Ukraine has promised that all the Russian ammunition they captured will be returned to Russian positions. We can expect it to explode and cause casualties when it lands on those positions, but Ukraine is returning it.
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  29. #4719
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quite an interesting article on Russian underperformance, by a RUSI analyst:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...orming-ukraine
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  30. #4720
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That is the best demonstration of p!$$!ng in the wind that I have seen.
    Whist they have been storing their boat and preparing, North Korea has declared itself to be a (rogue) nuclear state. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-41174689
    Well, whom is the original nuclear rogue state ? Hmmmmmmm ???

  31. #4721
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hunter View Post
    I'll give sandtown a bit of credit, the US has blocked some deals to reduce the number of nuclear weapons..
    Thanks for being civil !! Your points have some merit.

  32. #4722
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    The problem with nuclear disarmament isn't recognizing its desirability, but in guaranteeing compliance. If you know how to do that, then I suspect a great many governments would back the idea. .
    No offense, but quite a bit of work has been done on compliance issues regarding nukes,

    such as a world-wide system of seismic detection devices.

    In practice, with seismic monitoring alone, all nuclear explosions down to yields of one kiloton can be detected with 90 percent reliability by examining between about 50 and 100 seismic events a day. To detect nuclear explosions with lower yields, the number of seismic events that must be examined goes up.

  33. #4723
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by bob winter View Post
    I remember 1962, it wasn't simply a question of the USSR giving a few tactical nukes to Cuba. They were also supplying troops as well as missiles..
    Well, you have that mostly wrong.

  34. #4724
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    The Guardian is reporting the M777's from the US are wearing away. They're furiously reverse engineering parts to keep them alive and firing. Same with the HIMARs systems.
    This is a dimension i didn't think of.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Whist they have been storing their boat and preparing, North Korea has declared itself to be a (rogue) nuclear state.
    When N. Korea catches up to the US in nuclear bad behavior, let me know and I will get right on it.

    My own perspective is that, should the balloon ever really go up, I want to be able to look my grandkids in the eye and tell them I tried to get rid of those satanic weapons.

    Of course, the bitter irony is that as part of the nuclear weapons production cycle of mining, refining, testing, manufacturing we nuked ourselves ..(how many of those deaths were USAean? maybe half?)

    (Wiki) In the United States, which conducted almost half of all nuclear tests, a 2017 study estimated that fallout from nuclear testing contributed between 340,000 to 460,000 excess deaths from 1951 and 1973.

    And besides that. I like old boats.

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