Page 133 of 216 FirstFirst ... 3383123132133134143183 ... LastLast
Results 4,621 to 4,655 of 7535

Thread: Ukraine

  1. #4621
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    10,752

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Soldier interview. Worth a watch.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk2pBDEc6cQ&t=1338s


  2. #4622
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,855

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Bull Pucky sir - My source(s) were US diplomat Fiona Hill, Responsible Statecraft, and Foreign Affairs . . . all of which are solid.

    Just because Pravda reports something does not mean that it is false.
    It's a strong indication when it's the only source.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  3. #4623
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    21,001

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Bull Pucky sir - My source(s) were US diplomat Fiona Hill, Responsible Statecraft, and Foreign Affairs . . . all of which are solid.

    Just because Pravda reports something does not mean that it is false.

    Rather than check out the veracity of the report, you immediately turn to attacking the messengers.

    Shame on you.
    How does one "check out the veracity" of a statement like "the West isn’t ready for the war to end"?

    That's about as pure as pro-Russia propaganda could get. No need for whoever repeats it to be pro-Russian, either, just usefully undiscerning.

  4. #4624
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,855

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Perhaps thinking that the bloodshed and destruction was not yet sufficient,

    it looks very much as if the US/UK in April blew up a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia.

    https://responsiblestatecraft.org/20...al-in-ukraine/

    . . . the West wants to fight to the last Ukrainian . .

    I will confidently wager that you will see ZERO mention of this on the MSM

    The apparent revelation raises some key questions: Why did Western leaders want to stop Kyiv from signing a seemingly good deal with Moscow? Do they consider the conflict a proxy war with Russia? And, most importantly, what would it take to get back to a deal?
    G - T - F - O - O - H

    All credibility evaporates like water on a hot sidewalk with "a seemingly good deal".

    It's not a proxy war. Ukraine wishes to join the Englightenment.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    . . . the West wants to fight to the last Ukrainian . . .
    Your "West" implies an "East". The "West" is going to smash your "East".

    You're going to have to find another way of addressing your western guilt than rooting for the East. By their own proclamation, stripped of their Imperial and Communist totalitarianism, they have nothing to offer but naked ethnic and religious bigotry, imposed by force, backed by threat of nukes. There are no deals to be made, before unconditional surrender. Maybe some combat courtesies like evacuation of wounded and prisoner exchange. Maybe. Things suggested by our superior morality.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  5. #4625
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    sweden
    Posts
    304

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post

    . Ukraine wishes to join the Englightenment.



    Things suggested by our superior morality.


    You throw that word "enlightenment" around as if it means something. When did you last speak to a Ukranian to arrive at this conclusion?

    As for superior morality, how does Nulands "f**k the EU" fit that narrative?

  6. #4626
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    28,535

    Default Re: Ukraine

    A particularly thoughtful youtube lecture from Perun:

    https://youtu.be/B93tLs39pQo
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  7. #4627
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    28,535

    Default Re: Ukraine

    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  8. #4628
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    1,282

    Default Re: Ukraine

    A peace agreement, that would include Ukraine ceding land to Russia, that might have been possible in February is hardly acceptable to anyone in Ukraine or its supporting countries when new horrors are revealed:

    The revelations of mass graves of civilians and torture chambers in newly liberated Izyum confirm ISW’s previous assessments that the Bucha atrocities were not isolated war crimes but rather a microcosm of Russian atrocities throughout Russian-occupied areas. The Ukrainian General Staff published images on September 16 showing a mass burial site in Izyum, Kharkiv Oblast and noting that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said that the site contained more than 400 bodies showing signs of torture and brutality.[1] The Ukrainian Ministry of Reintegration reported that the number of war crimes victims in Izyum may exceed those of Bucha.[2] The head of Ukraine’s National Police, Ihor Klymenko, stated that Ukrainian officials have found 10 Russian torture chambers in Vovchansk, Kupyansk, Balaklia, and Izyum.[3] One torture chamber was reportedly located in the Balakliya police department, where “Russians wore masks and tortured civilians with bare electric wires,” according to Andriy Nebytov, the head of the National Police Main Directorate in the Kyiv region.[4]
    Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, September 16 | Institute for the Study of War (understandingwar.org)

    /Erik

  9. #4629
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,835

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    There are no deals to be made, before unconditional surrender. .
    How arrogant of you to claim the right to dictate to the Ukrainians.

    Very Western of you.

  10. #4630
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,855

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    You throw that word "enlightenment" around as if it means something.
    It means only enemy to you. So be it. Your choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    When did you last speak to a Ukranian to arrive at this conclusion?
    When did you?

    Actually they spoke to me; to a candid world, when they ran that greasy rodent Russian puppet Yanukovitch and his goon squad out of town.





    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    As for superior morality, how does Nulands "f**k the EU" fit that narrative?
    What about your old granny narrative?
    Last edited by Osborne Russell; 09-17-2022 at 11:46 AM. Reason: wrong Yanukovitch
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  11. #4631
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Entry Level
    Posts
    25,855

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Check out the docu:

    On the last day, when the decision to charge the snipers on the hill was taken, people told the volunteers, "You may be killed!" The volunteers responded, "We came here to die."

    Coming soon to a Belarus near you.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  12. #4632
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    29,041

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    How arrogant of you to claim the right to dictate to the Ukrainians.

    Very Western of you.
    Aren't you the guy who said Boris Johnson dictated to Zelensky that he couldn't accept a peace deal?

    Ukraine has plenty of experience dealing with Russia. After all, Russia is a signatory to the Budapest Memorandum, in which they guaranteed Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity, yet here we are. Yet you think they needed Boris Johnson to tell them Putin couldn't be trusted. It seems to me that Ukraine's leadership is quite capable and very clear on what they think is in Ukraine's interest.

    I hope you read the article by Fiona Hill that I linked to. Her views seem very different from how you described them. To quote from that article:

    At any point, negotiations with Russia—if not handled carefully and with continued strong Western support for Ukraine’s defense and security—would merely facilitate an operational pause for Moscow. After a time, Russia would continue to try to undermine the Ukrainian government. Moscow would likely first attempt to take Odessa and other Black Sea ports with the goal of leaving Ukraine an economically inviable, landlocked country. If he succeeds in that, Putin would launch a renewed assault on Kyiv as well, with the aim of unseating the present government and installing a pro-Moscow puppet government. Putin’s war in Ukraine, then, will likely grind on for a long time. The main challenge for the West will be maintaining resolve and unity, as well as expanding international support for Ukraine and preventing sanctions evasion.

  13. #4633
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,835

    Default Re: Ukraine

    What war in history did not have allegations of torture and abuse of civilians . . .

    and failure to respect the persons of our noble invading er, I mean peacekeeping troops ??

    We in Vets for Peace have some experience with that.

    You might want to think about that the next time you see that POW/MIA flag at the post office.

    You were conned about that, and you are likely being conned now.

    (I do not know which side(s) in the Ukr struggle are guilty of war crimes . . .

    and neither do you)

  14. #4634
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,835

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by ERGR View Post
    A peace agreement, that would include Ukraine ceding land to Russia, that might have been possible in February is hardly acceptable to anyone in Ukraine or its supporting countries when new horrors are revealed: /Erik
    It could be, I do not know.

    But I do know that the Psy-ops people will vigorously massage the data.

    And I am trying to figure out what advantage Russia would gain by abusing Ukr folks.

  15. #4635
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,835

    Default Re: Ukraine

    What war in history did not have allegations of torture and abuse of civilians . . .

    and failure to respect the persons of our noble invading er, I mean peacekeeping troops ??

  16. #4636
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,835

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Aren't you the guy who said Boris Johnson dictated to Zelensky that he couldn't accept a peace deal? :
    No I did not "say" or write that. Fiona Hill did, likely in an unguarded moment.

  17. #4637
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    new zealand
    Posts
    6,034

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    What war in history did not have allegations of torture and abuse of civilians . . .

    and failure to respect the persons of our noble invading er, I mean peacekeeping troops ??

    We in Vets for Peace have some experience with that.

    You might want to think about that the next time you see that POW/MIA flag at the post office.

    You were conned about that, and you are likely being conned now.

    (I do not know which side(s) in the Ukr struggle are guilty of war crimes . . .

    and neither do you)
    That seems an incredibly naive statement, given the astonishing volume of eye witness accounts, video, satellite imagery, and the indisputable destruction of civilian infrastructure confirmed by "reputable" news sources.
    With a cellphone in every hand, this war has been documented in real-time like no other - to suggest that is all psy-ops or a con is disingenuous.
    Take a look at Bellingcat. They seem to do a credible job of following up on some of this material.
    https://www.bellingcat.com/tag/ukraine/

    Pete
    The Ignore feature, lowering blood pressure since 1862. Ahhhhhhh.

  18. #4638
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA USA
    Posts
    16,865

    Default Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    No I did not "say" or write that. Fiona Hill did, likely in an unguarded moment.

    Then you could back that claim up with a cite from a reputable source or two -- The NY Times, Reuters, The Guardian, WaPo, Deutsche Welle, Le Monde -- there are lots.
    Last edited by Nicholas Carey; 09-18-2022 at 01:50 AM.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  19. #4639
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    28,535

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Torture and other war crimes allegations are easy to find, such as Deutsche Welle, just now:

    https://youtu.be/xPBxyHEb2hU
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  20. #4640
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Wrocław, Poland
    Posts
    13,519

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    (I do not know which side(s) in the Ukr struggle are guilty of war crimes . . .

    and neither do you)
    Actually, it's quite clear. An unprovoked war IS a war crime.

    In the judgment of the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, which followed World War II, "War is essentially an evil thing. Its consequences are not confined to the belligerent states alone, but affect the whole world. To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."[1][2]
    In other words, Russia started this war. Every war crime connected to that war is contained within their initial offense against international law.

    So yes, we do know which side--NOT "sides"--is guilty of war crimes. We knew that in February. Actually, we've known it (and largely ignored it) since 2014.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  21. #4641
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    sweden
    Posts
    304

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    .

    So yes, we do know which side--NOT "sides"--is guilty of war crimes. We knew that in February. Actually, we've known it (and largely ignored it) since 2014.

    Tom
    Are you aware of how many Ukrainians have been killed in the Donbass from Kyiv forces shelling since 2014? Not a war crime?

  22. #4642
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    71,411

    Default Re: Ukraine

    We must be saying something right on this thread to attracr 2 bots of our own……..

  23. #4643
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Gulf Islands B.C.
    Posts
    4,328

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Pretty sad that at this point anyone would give any credence to any Russian sources of information. How many lies does it take to wake some people up.

  24. #4644
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    28,535

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    We must be saying something right on this thread to attracr 2 bots of our own……..
    I was thinking along those lines.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  25. #4645
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    sweden
    Posts
    304

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Pretty sad that at this point anyone would give any credence to any Russian sources of information. How many lies does it take to wake some people up.

    Pretty sad that in this day and age and with access to information, ignorance is a choice some choose to make.

    UN Releases Data on Donbas War Casualties (promoteukraine.org)


    I have worked with the International Red Cross, the OSCE and other NGOs. People die in efforts to get people like you truth, and all you can do is bad mouth their sacrifice.



    First OSCE Monitor Dies in Ukrainian Conflict | by @DFRLab | DFRLab | Medium

  26. #4646
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Gulf Islands B.C.
    Posts
    4,328

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post
    Pretty sad that in this day and age and with access to information, ignorance is a choice some choose to make.

    UN Releases Data on Donbas War Casualties (promoteukraine.org)


    I have worked with the International Red Cross, the OSCE and other NGOs. People die in efforts to get people like you truth, and all you can do is bad mouth their sacrifice.



    First OSCE Monitor Dies in Ukrainian Conflict | by @DFRLab | DFRLab | Medium
    Number one, I don’t believe anything you say about yourself. Number two, civilians die in conflicts. In the case of the Donbas, Russian efforts and Russian supplied arms created and sustained that conflict. Russia is to blame for the ongoing instability and conflict throughout the region.

  27. #4647
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    28,535

    Default Re: Ukraine

    So far as I am aware, and I have read quite widely on this subject, Ukraine did not invade Russia.

    Ukraine has not invoked irredentism as a basis for any action.
    Last edited by Andrew Craig-Bennett; 09-18-2022 at 09:27 AM.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  28. #4648
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Gulf Islands B.C.
    Posts
    4,328

    Default Re: Ukraine

    What, exactly, do you want Vadim? And how do you see that being achieved?
    Personally, I see the only end to this conflict being when Russia F’s off back over its own borders and stops flinging munitions. Maybe if we just asked nicely? Hmmm….nope, don’t see that helping. So I guess we just have to keep helping the Ukraine fight back against the aggressor. See, I’ve always been pretty plain and fairly well known here for my stance on self defence. And this is no different. F Russia.

    After the conflict ends we can discuss who was right or wrong to do what was done.

  29. #4649
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Marblehead MA
    Posts
    3,279

    Default Re: Ukraine

    One of the good things about this forum is the level of knowledge the participants have. It makes the job of people (if they are people) like Vadim and Sandtown more or less impossible. They do much more damage on places like twitter.
    Yachting, the only sport where you get to be a mechanic, electrician, plumber and carpenter

  30. #4650
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Isle of Mull, Scotland
    Posts
    10,231

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Posted elsewhere:
    If Russia stops fighting, there is no more war.
    If Ukraine stops fighting, there is no more Ukraine.

  31. #4651
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    28,535

    Default Re: Ukraine

    I think this is perhaps an interesting story from the “Guardian”, today:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...keover-schools
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  32. #4652
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,835

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    , Russia started this war. Every war crime connected to that war is contained within their initial offense against international law.
    While I was a trooper in Vietnam I was taught that the VC/NVA were torturers and war criminals, and that the US forces were freedom fighters.

    It was pretty much the other way around.

  33. #4653
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,835

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hunter View Post
    One of the good things about this forum is the level of knowledge the participants have. It makes the job of people (if they are people) like Vadim and Sandtown more or less impossible. They do much more damage on places like twitter.
    Veterans For Peace has gotten this sort of ad hominemism for a good while. We are used to it.

    You substitute personal attacks for dealing with reality.

    We were right about Iraq, Central America, Vietnam and much else.

    How about y'all ??

  34. #4654
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Isle of Mull, Scotland
    Posts
    10,231

    Default Re: Ukraine

    I don't think the Russians are freedom fighters, whatever you think, sandtown.
    Moscow paying you much?

  35. #4655
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    28,535

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Interesting article, which seems to contain new open source information, suggesting that air and missile defence equipment is being moved to support Russian forces in Ukraine:

    https://yle.fi/news/3-12626182
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •