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Thread: Ukraine

  1. #4901
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    sandtown has posted about boats from back in the teens. He's not a Russian bot.

    However sandtown it begs belief that you are writing commentary on the Ukraine war thread but you have not read anything about Putin's war aims and are asking us to provide you with proof that he wants to take over the Ukraine. It's a degree of ignorance of the topic which you really ought to rectify. Go read Putin's own stuff, he is very clear about what he wants to do, there is nothing secret about it.
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  2. #4902
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    To this end they've abducted perhaps as many as 1.3M Ukrainians - mostly children - and transported them first to "filtration camps" and then into Siberia, with the children ultimately to be adopted into Russian families and Ukrainian identity dispersed.

    This strategy has been openly discussed on Russian television.
    Which channel did you get this news from?

  3. #4903
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    The deportation has been widely reported by Western and Russian news sources. I checked the number earlier today and the US Govt. is estimating between 900,000 and 1.3 million of whom about a quarter million are children. English language reporting on this here: Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians forcibly deported to Russia, U.S. says (nbcnews.com) I tried looking for Russian media reports but my cyrillic skills are poor and most of the Russian media content is no longer on youtube. However rather than questioning us you should go find it yourself it might be enlightening.
    Yachting, the only sport where you get to be a mechanic, electrician, plumber and carpenter

  4. #4904
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Widely reported. I get most of my Ukraine news from a couple of open source Intel lists on Twitter, https://twitter.com/i/lists/1490427245097148423?s=20
    https://twitter.com/i/lists/1494877848087187461?s=20

    Those lists follow heads of state, analysts, reporters, and various news agencies.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  5. #4905
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    I see several reports of iranian drones being shot down or disabled. After initial reports of them being effective. I suspect we (the US) has some pretty good anti-drone countermeasures that are being put into use.

  6. #4906
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Please give us a cite or two about Russia's goal to take all of Ukr.

    Did Stockman "forget" that, or did you make it up ??

    And Fiona Hill obviously does not like the Russian regime overly much - neither do I.

    But I see no reason to doubt her claim that the US blew up the peace process . . . in fact, her perspective makes it MORE likely that she is correct in that respect.

    What she did was say the quiet part out loud.

    Who is doing the name calling around here? I try not to, but admittedly come up short once in a while.

    I'd say this post of mine is more civil than yours . . by a healthy margin.
    Had you actually read Hill's article, you would know that you are misrepresenting what she said. At no point did she say the US blew up the process. She said the Russians lost interest in a peace based on the Feb. 23 boundaries because, as their foreign minister said, 'the geography has changed,' meaning that they had conquered more land.

    I am astonished that this far into the thread, you are still unfamiliar with Russia's initial war aims. Had they been satisfied with the 2014 boundaries, they would hardly have invaded. Surely have some notion of what Putin has actually said. From a story published Feb. 23:

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...pt-february-22

    The central contention of Putin’s speech on Monday is that Ukraine and Russia are, in historical terms, essentially inseparable.
    “Ukraine is not just a neighboring country for us. It is an inalienable part of our own history, culture and spiritual space,” he said, per the Kremlin’s official translation. “Since time immemorial, the people living in the south-west of what has historically been Russian land have called themselves Russians.”
    What we now call Ukraine, he says, “was entirely created by Russia or, to be more precise, by Bolshevik Communist Russia.” In this questionable narrative, a trio of early Soviet leaders — Lenin, Stalin, and Khrushchev — carved land away from Russia and several nearby nations to create a distinct and ahistorical republic called Ukraine. The creation of Ukraine and the other Soviet republics was an attempt to win the support of “the most zealous nationalists” across the Soviet Union — at the expense of the historical idea of Russia.

    If that doesn't satisfy you, perhaps you could respond to Nick's post #4897.

    Putin has made it clear from the start that he did not view Ukraine as a legitimate state, and his initial military moves made it clear that he thought this invasion would be easy. Now that it has become clear that this is not easy to achieve, have his war aims changed? He has sort of said so, but why would Ukraine believe him? After all, seizing the Donbas in 2014 didn't satisfy him.

    I realize that people like you, Stockman, and Henry Kissinger think that Ukraine should just give Putin what he wants in order to get peace. And I'm sure Kissinger could negotiate for Ukraine a peace that would work out for them as well as the peace he negotiated for South Viet Nam.



    But it may be the case that Ukraine does not want that kind of peace.

    As to civility, read back though your posts on this thread. They are dripping with contempt for your interlocutors. You have accused me of the genetic fallacy, even though you speak disparagingly of 'the blob' and 'neoconservatives,' but embrace those who agree with your preconceptions.

    Perhaps you don't think this was insulting:

    Originally Posted by sandtown
    How about if you make some slight effort to deal with the points Stockman raised ??

    Too much work ??
    When you say

    Please give us a cite or two about Russia's goal to take all of Ukr.

    Did Stockman "forget" that, or did you make it up ??
    Do you think you are being pleasant and civil? Is it even possible for you to ask a question without making it into an insult?

  7. #4907
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Thanks Osborne.

    Davies hasn’t been here long. We had a terrific thread on US colonial adventures, a little over one century after the Spanish American War, in which Mark Twain, Rudyard Kipling, Old Duckboards and others featured prominently.
    The USA is one colony after another. A clump of colonies. Alaska, Hawaii . . . sea to shining sea, as the song goes. The Phillipines, alas. Was it the woke who discovered this?

    There was a thing called the age of colonialism; CRT insists. There was also a thing called the old stone age, "paleolithic". I don't know what the CRT position on that is. I'm guessing it has to do with rule of the elite.

    Who/what was "Old Duckboards"? Can't believe I missed something so euphonious.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  8. #4908
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    “Old duckboards” was a nickname for General Smedley Butler, USMC, some of whose writings I have, perhaps to the disappointment of our friend Davies, actually read. He was given the nickname by soldiers who formed a part of Pershing’s United States Expeditionary Force, because of his concern for the health and hygiene of US soldiers passing though the transit camp that he commanded. He had hoped for a front line post but he was apparently considered “unreliable”.
    Last edited by Andrew Craig-Bennett; 09-23-2022 at 07:03 PM.
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  9. #4909
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Widely reported. I get most of my Ukraine news from a couple of open source Intel lists on Twitter, https://twitter.com/i/lists/1490427245097148423?s=20
    https://twitter.com/i/lists/1494877848087187461?s=20

    Those lists follow heads of state, analysts, reporters, and various news agencies.
    As far as news from Russia goes, these two sites are pretty decent:

    - Meduza (https://meduza.io/en) — It's a Russian- and English-language news site, headquartered in Riga, Latvia. Founded in 2014 by Galina Timchenko, who had been the editor-in-chief of the independent Russian news site Lenta.ru after she and other employees ([COLOR=#202122][FONT=sans-serif]32 writing journalists, all photo-editors (5 people) and 6 administrators), nearly half of Lenta's staff had been purged (it seems Putin didn't approve of their independent journalism, and wanted a Kremlin-controlled sock puppet at the editor's desk.) Timechenko and some 20 other ex-Lenta employees moved to Riga and founded Meduza, figuring (probably rightly so) that they wouldn't be allowed to work in Russia, and neither would independent journalism be allowed. More at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meduza and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenta.ru

    - The Moscow Times (https://www.themoscowtimes.com/). Founded in 1992 by a Dutch publisher who had moved to Moscow following the implosion of the Soviet Union. The Mosco Times was originally aimed at anglophone ex-pats who had come to Moscow after the Soviet Union's implosion. It found a wider audience. Moved from Moscow to Amsterdam following the invasion of Ukraine. More at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moscow_Times
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  10. #4910
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    The word contempt (JohnW. 4907) is a very powerful word and is the leading driver of political intolerance within the Dis-United States, and leading to it's partial separation into it's component colonies. The question I suppose will it come to a tipping point, how close is it, or has that point been reached and it's just the actual resolution that is to come?
    I am still optimistic, but the loading of the USSC may have been a step too far.

  11. #4911
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quite honestly, sandtown certainly seems a russian apologist, perhaps even a troll. Not sure that 'posting above decks' provides any sort of cover or absolution. I'd imagine even ruskytrolls like boats, as well.

    Also unsure why such effort is being expended to counter. 'The tell', for me - his claim to have seen nothing suggesting putin intended to take the whole of Ukraine. Really? It's been reported... everywhere. I know I certainly wouldn't waste time attempting to document such a thing. To deny such, suggests either incredible lack of awareness, or a purposefulness of deceit. Either way - why engage? It's no longer a discussion, more of a disingenuous preening.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  12. #4912
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Couple of things:




    For example:

    Things aren’t going well at the front, he [Putin] was facing pressure from radicals, and he needed to make some kind of concession. [...]

    [But military] mobilization outside the bounds of war implies some kind of political mobilization — that’s a prerequisite. In order for people to be willing to die, they need to be put in an existential situation; they need to be made part of a comprehensible, collective whole. And that’s a big problem for Putin — his is more of a police state than a totalitarian one.

    And so the political mobilization never happened. Because Putin can no longer say, “Guys, for twenty years, we’ve had a deal: you take out your loans and go about your business, and I’ll stay out of your lives" [if he's also sending people to war]. This entire crackpot scheme is not so much a risk as an absolute guarantee that the country will be destroyed. Mobilization is one more step in that direction.
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  13. #4913
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hunter View Post
    The deportation has been widely reported by Western and Russian news sources. I checked the number earlier today and the US Govt. is estimating between 900,000 and 1.3 million of whom about a quarter million are children. English language reporting on this here: Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians forcibly deported to Russia, U.S. says (nbcnews.com) I tried looking for Russian media reports but my cyrillic skills are poor and most of the Russian media content is no longer on youtube. However rather than questioning us you should go find it yourself it might be enlightening.
    Here's a rather long report from Human Rights Watch on the deportation of Ukrainian civilians to Russia:

    https://www.hrw.org/report/2022/09/0...nian-civilians

    Summary

    Since Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine on February 24, 2022, Russian and Russian-affiliated officials have forcibly transferred Ukrainian civilians, including those fleeing hostilities, to areas of Ukraine occupied by Russia or to the Russian Federation, a serious violation of the laws of war amounting to a war crime and a potential crime against humanity. Many of those forcibly transferred were fleeing the besieged port city of Mariupol.

    Russian and Russian-affiliated authorities also subjected thousands of these Ukrainian citizens to a process referred to by Russia as “filtration,” a form of compulsory security screening, in which they typically collected civilians’ biometric data, including fingerprints and front and side facial images; conducted body searches, and searched personal belongings and phones; and questioned them about their political views. Ukrainian civilians were effectively interned as they waited to undergo this process, with many reporting that they were housed in overcrowded and squalid conditions, for periods as short as several hours for up to almost a month.

    Forced transfers and the filtration process constitute and involve separate and distinct abuses against civilians, although many Ukrainian civilians experienced both.

    This report documents the forcible transfer of Ukrainian civilians from Mariupol and the Kharkiv region to Russia and Russian-occupied areas of Ukraine. Unlike combatants who, once captured, are held as prisoners of war (POWs) and may be moved to enemy territory, the forcible transfer of civilians is prohibited under international humanitarian law, or the laws of war, and can be prosecuted as a war crime and a crime against humanity. The report describes various kinds of pressure the Russian military and other Russian and Russian-affiliated officials used to make Ukrainian civilians fleeing hostilities go to Russia or the so-called “Donetsk People’s Republic” (DNR), an area of the Donetsk region controlled by Russian-affiliated armed groups and currently occupied by Russia (DNR is used in this report as a reference to this area, not as recognition of any claims to sovereignty). The report also describes the many challenges Ukrainian civilians faced and the abuses they suffered as they attempted to flee Mariupol for Ukrainian-controlled territory and avoid going to Russia, or as they tried to leave Russia for a third country.

    On June 20, Iryna Vereshchuk, Ukraine’s deputy prime minister, claimed that 1.2 million Ukrainians had been forcibly taken to Russia, including 240,000 children. In late July, the Russian News Agency (TASS) reported that over 2.8 million Ukrainians had entered the Russian Federation from Ukraine, including 448,000 children. It reported that about half these Ukrainian nationals held passports from the DNR or the “Luhansk People’s Republic,” an area of the Luhansk region controlled by Russian-affiliated armed groups and currently occupied by Russia (LNR is used in this report as a reference to this area, not as recognition of any claims to sovereignty).

    Although the total number of Ukrainian civilians transferred to Russia – either voluntarily or involuntarily – remains unclear, many were transported to Russia in organized mass transfers, even though they were hoping to go to Ukrainian-controlled territory, in a manner and context that renders them illegal forcible transfers.
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  14. #4914
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    I see several reports of iranian drones being shot down or disabled. After initial reports of them being effective. I suspect we (the US) has some pretty good anti-drone countermeasures that are being put into use.
    I think the state of the art anti-drone technology came from Israel. By way of Poland.

    https://dronedj.com/2022/09/19/israe...er-to-ukraine/
    Last edited by StevenBauer; 09-23-2022 at 08:31 PM.

  15. #4915
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Quite honestly, sandtown certainly seems a russian apologist, perhaps even a troll. Not sure that 'posting above decks' provides any sort of cover or absolution. I'd imagine even ruskytrolls like boats, as well.

    Also unsure why such effort is being expended to counter. 'The tell', for me - his claim to have seen nothing suggesting putin intended to take the whole of Ukraine. Really? It's been reported... everywhere. I know I certainly wouldn't waste time attempting to document such a thing. To deny such, suggests either incredible lack of awareness, or a purposefulness of deceit. Either way - why engage? It's no longer a discussion, more of a disingenuous preening.
    No, I don't think so. I think he believes what he's saying, and has a confirmation bias that makes him think that only sources that agree with him are reliable. That's why I continue to engage with him, and present facts that are apparently outside his epistemic bubble. I think he believes the sort of 'Manufacturing Consent' thesis that the people are always, everywhere, bamboozled by the military-industrial complex.

    Personally, I have a stupidity theory of history. Conspiracies, cabals, and other malefactors are constantly plotting to bend history to their will. The more secret they are, the more inept they become, because the first thing they make secret are their mistakes, so they don't learn from them. Often, they bring their plans to fruition, only to find that in the chaotic system that is human society, the effects of their efforts are not what they hoped. One book refers to the results of the CIA's covert activities as 'A Legacy of Ashes.'

    I also think these are not the only things moving human history. There are people sincerely trying to make the world a better place, and people earnestly striving to convince others of what they sincerely believe. I think the color revolutions are an example of this. They, too, will make mistakes, but will do so out in the open.


    I don't think sandtown is a Russian apologist, I think he gives too much credence to the idea that America is constantly acting in nefarious ways that must be stopped. He ascribes too much power to the US, so he assumes every conflict is really about the US. People in other countries are trying to make their own history, but sandtown is too US-centric to see it. He treats those who disagree with him as fools or knaves, because he is convinced that what he believes is obviously true, even when the sources he cites haven't said what he claims they have said.

  16. #4916
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    OK....
    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I have in fact .....
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hunter View Post
    I’m going to talk ......
    Tom, John and Tom - excellent stuff.


    Apparently (Reuters) the Russian authorities are drafting the men they pick up from protests.

    Professional, well trained, well equipped, motivated army.........
    Anti-war protestors with 15 days training.......

    There's something in that mix that doesn't feel thought through, i can't put my finger on it.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  17. #4917
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    It means that the young men who actually oppose the war are the ones who are going to be killed. Two birds and all that. Someone on my wifes facebook suggested that Putin is mentally ill. My old missus suggested that he needs a little lead pill, administered via the forehead. A few minutes later she received a warning from facebook that inciting violence is against the rules and if she does it again her account will be suspended. I hope no one in Russia reads her post and does something bad to Putin. We had no idea we had so much influence on the world stage JayInOz

  18. #4918
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    Default Re: Ukraine



    Happy New Year in Ukraine,
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    No, I don't think so. I think he believes what he's saying,

    I don't think sandtown is a Russian apologist, I think he gives too much credence to the idea that America is constantly acting in nefarious ways that must be stopped..
    A tour or two in the big muddy of Vietnam in the 1960's will do that to ya.

    Thank you for your civility.

    And I note the rest of you still are unable to offer any real evidence that Russia's aims were or are to take all of Ukr . .

    You got nuttin !!

  20. #4920
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    A tour or two in the big muddy of Vietnam in the 1960's will do that to ya.
    Perhaps you should consider Vietnam as an anomoly. I'm sorry that you were mired in it.

    And I note the rest of you still are unable to offer any real evidence that Russia's aims were or are to take all of Ukr . .

    You got nuttin !!
    We have quoted Putin's own words to you, at length, where he all but comes out and says, "Ukraine is mine (and Russia's) land, and I intend to take it [back] by force."

    He has stated quite clearly his beliefs and intentions with respect to Ukraine, and is acting openly on them -- how much more explicit does he have to get?
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  21. #4921
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    ' - his claim to have seen nothing suggesting putin intended to take the whole of Ukraine. Really? It's been reported... everywhere. I know I certainly wouldn't waste time attempting to document such a thing. .
    If it is just soooo easy to document (mere "reports" from the Blob won't cut it), why can't you do it ???

    Try googling this phrase . . "is putin's goal to take all of ukraine?"

    Very Very few results support your claim.

    Jeebus

  22. #4922
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Putin's aim is/was to resume the territories of the old Czarist empire, plus likely those of the Soviet as well.
    Certainly Ukraine plus the smaller Baltic coast states woud have been the ultimate goal.

  23. #4923
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    If it is just soooo easy to document (mere "reports" from the Blob won't cut it), why can't you do it ???

    Try googling this phrase . . "is putin's goal to take all of ukraine?"

    Very Very few results support your claim.

    Jeebus
    You have been supplied with multiple links to putins stated aims, from the horses mouth. Try following up on a few of them, please.
    Try googling "putins goals in Ukraine". You'll get it loud and clear.

    Jeebus!
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    Perhaps you should consider Vietnam as an anomoly.
    You've got to be kidding. Do you know any US history at all ? Except for maybe fifteen or twenty years, the US has busily been at war or overthrowing other countries since the day the Constitution was signed.

    The anomoly was the four or five years between when we lost the war in Vietnam and the election of Ronnie Raygun, when the US kind of sort of minded its own business, more or less. Otherwise, we've been invading and killing people in their own countries continuously for two hundred years and more.

    You guys are righteous hypocrites of the first rank.

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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    :

    https://www.hrw.org/report/2022/09/0...nian-civilians


    Although the total number of Ukrainian civilians transferred to Russia – either voluntarily or involuntarily – remains unclear, many were transported to Russia in organized mass transfers, even though they were hoping to go to Ukrainian-controlled territory, in a manner and context that renders them illegal forcible transfers.

    Yet contained in this report is this International Law:

    It is permitted to temporarily displace or evacuate civilians to protect them from the effects of an attack, or if civilian security or imperative military reasons demand such displacement. Indeed, Article 58 of Additional Protocol I requires that parties to the conflict, “to the maximum extent feasible,” take the necessary precautions to protect civilians and civilian objects under their control from the dangers resulting from military operations, including seeking to remove civilians and civilian objects under their control from the vicinity of military targets.[32]

    From a personal experience perspective, i would prefer if opposing forces removed all civilians from an area, before engaging in fighting. We as a working team had been "advised in the strongest terms possible" to leave certain places on a few occasions, the one time we chose to stay is when my friend/translator/colleague of 3 years was killed in mortar fire.

    Given what happened inside Raqqa during coalition bombing, removing civilians from a conflict zone is a lesser evil. I have a friend here in Sweden from Aleppo, who did not want to leave, but realises now that if he had stayed his chances of being alive today would be less, and he now has a wider skill set and money, for when he does return. Many people he knew who stayed perished.

    I am no military strategist, but i would be wondering if the removal of so many civilians may be a hint of what may be coming next?

  26. #4926
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    ^ Yep, all well and good. But as Ukrainian citizens, Russia is making sincere and strenuous efforts to repatriate them to Ukraine, or at the very least, to keep some neutral party like Red Cross updated as their current location and welfare. Yes?
    Or have they just been disappeared into Mother Russia? That's a serious question, hoping you can shed some light on it.

    Pete
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  27. #4927
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Footage tonight of Russians going door to door "collecting" votes in the free and fair democratic elections putin has ordered in the disputed regions. He is not only clearing the path as he sees it to cement claims on those regions, but also to justify whatever steps he deems necessary to protect those soon to be Russian regions from the invading Ukrainians. The risk of tactical nukes being used just went up a notch. JayInOz

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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    ^ Yep, all well and good. But as Ukrainian citizens, Russia is making sincere and strenuous efforts to repatriate them to Ukraine, or at the very least, to keep some neutral party like Red Cross updated as their current location and welfare. Yes?
    Or have they just been disappeared into Mother Russia? That's a serious question, hoping you can shed some light on it.

    Pete
    It is a serious question, and one i can not shed any light on. Much as the HRW is usually a reliable source of information, from some of the figures stated, their own assessment is based on less than 0.1% of those who have been moved, make of that what you will.

    Red Cross is usually a respected organization, nation states are not usually willing or have no obligation to divulge figures to NGOs, and some clearly have no respect at all.

    Ukraine police have opened fire on Red Cross medics - shocking pictures - World News - Mirror Online

    Many did flee to Russia, as Ukranian shelling took its toll.

  29. #4929
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post

    That is, they're conceived primarily as defensive weapons of deterrence. That's how Putin's threatened their use here.

    To make the threat/deterrent credible, one must retain the right of first use. That's why NATO hasn't revoked that right either.

    .
    Is it really so hard for people to think Moscow being within 7 minutes of a Ukraine launched nuclear weapon is not a threat? Even back in 2008 Ukraine joining NATO was not considered to be a good idea based on strategic balance.

    That time Ukraine tried to join NATO — and NATO said no - The Washington Post

    It was well known, AND accepted back then as being a "red line", Russian stance on this has not changed.


    • Fourteen years ago, then U.S. Ambassador to Russia (current C.I.A. Director) William Burns was warned by Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov that Russia might have to intervene in Ukraine, if it were made a member of NATO. The subject line of Burns’ Feb. 1, 2008, Embassy Moscow cable (#182) to Washington makes it clear that Burns did not mince Lavrov’s words. It stated: “Nyet means nyet: Russia’s NATO enlargement redlines.” Thus, Washington policymakers were given forewarning, in very specific terms, of Russia’s redline regarding membership for Ukraine in NATO. Nevertheless, on April 3, 2008, a NATO summit in Bucharest asserted: “NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.”


    None of this excuses what is happening today. But anyone who suggests there are no mitigating circumstances are deluding themselves.

  30. #4930
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    so, the mitigating circumstance is that ukraine wanted to join nato and nato declined?

    in response to that 2008 application, putin warned of nuclear missiles being targeted at ukraine, "imagine that for a second", he said.

    fourteen years ago, vlad threatened the nuclear annihilation of ukraine. whose "mitigating circumstance" is that?

    maybe ukraine should have invaded russia.

  31. #4931
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim 68 View Post



    None of this excuses what is happening today.
    Exactly right. I proposed at the beginning of the year that this is all about putin. A lying turd with delusions of grandeur, who wants to be remembered for reunifying and even expanding the old soviet union. I said then that many thousands would die for nothing more than putins ego. An old school Russian dictator who measures success in death tolls. I think I've been right so far- and I still think he's a despicable pig eyed runt. The world needs to continue supporting Ukraine until putin is overthrown, dead or preferably both. JayInOz

  32. #4932
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    From Ukraine's perspective, the flight time of Ukrainian missiles to Moscow is hypothetical, but of Russian missiles to Kiev is proven.

    Seems to me that Ukraine's security interests are as valid as Russia's. I'd argue moreso, considering Russian aggression into Ukrainian territory these past years.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  33. #4933
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    if "security threats" are mitigating circumstances for starting an armed conflict, then let's take a clear-eyed view at who has threatened who.

    why would ukraine apply to join nato, anyway?

    the line of reasoning becomes preposterous when an actual physical invasion has been undertaken. can we call an invasion a "security threat"?

  34. #4934
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Post 4818 covers all I have to say on the rights and wrongs of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I can’t see that any of the Russophiles here has controverted it.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  35. #4935
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    if "security threats" are mitigating circumstances for starting an armed conflict, then let's take a clear-eyed view at who has threatened who.

    why would ukraine apply to join nato, anyway?
    That is a good question. Ukraine /Russia had security guarantees under the Bucharest Memorandum. The question you might want to ask is why that agreement never held up, and who was the first party to nullify it?

    "".....while technically the Budapest Memorandum was supposed to guarantee Ukraine’s sovereignty, even this was not without some caveats. None of the parties to the agreement would have expected Russia to keep clutching the Budapest Memorandum, when a new government in Ukraine – from the mid-2000s – set at some dangerous political manoeuvres, which Moscow kept decrying as constituting existential threat to its own national security. Meanwhile, there are precedents in contemporary diplomatic history of how countries of comparable power capability to Russia, dealt with similar security situations and challenges in the past. To expect Russia to stand akinbo and look on, while the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) steadily prosecuted its agenda for expansion into Ukraine, was unrealistic. And this is not necessarily a justification of the expanding scope of Russia’s extant military campaign in hapless Ukraine. It isn’t.""


    As posted earlier, it was the US governments position that Ukraine joining NATO would be a risk too great and a shift in the strategic balance. At some point, that position changed with full awareness of Russia's concerns, and disregarded......so here we are.....

    I have not seen anyone here posting support of irredentism, and calling other members "Russophiles" for perhaps seeing things from a different perspective, is as demeaning as Zelensky calling Ukrainians in the East "a species". Such language serves no purpose here stains your own character and shows a complete lack of empathy.

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