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Thread: Ukraine

  1. #3921
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Yeah, the US troops in Vietnam also thought it was funny to refer to the VC, as slopes, gooks, ZIPs and etc.

    but then they began to apply those labels to ALL Vietnamese - with the predictable consequences of mass racist violence.

    So there must be lots of USean orcs too.

  2. #3922
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    You may know it, or you may not, but your use of the term "orcs" for Russian people is

    exactly the kind of dehumanization of the "other" that makes war possible.

    I saw that play out in Vietnam as a young trooper - a whole lot of USAean soldiers really believed that the Vietnamese were less than human.

    Please think about what you are doing, and where it leads.
    That's true. As a teenager living on Okinawa and spending a lot of time around GIs during the war, I certainly remember liberal use of the g-word. I found it repellant. In fact, it soured me on the idea of following my father into the military. (My dad would fly as a Sanboard examiner for a month on Okinawa, then missions in Vietnam for a month.)

    Calling the Russian soldiers orcs is much more playful, an odd juxtaposition given the violence of the war. And, because Russians and Ukrainians are racially indistinguishable, there is not the racial animus of the g-word. It's more like the WW I lingo of Tommies and Jerries. When the Brits wanted to dehumanize the Germans, they called them Huns, and there was certainly plenty of dehumanizing propaganda.

    While the term 'orc' is an ancient one, it comes to popular culture through The Lord of the Rings, and the big problem with that book was that it assumed the existence of evil races. However, I have only heard the term 'orcs' applied to enemy soldiers, not to civilians, whereas the g-word was applied to all Asians and was definitely racist.

  3. #3923
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    \ . . the big problem with that book was that it assumed the existence of evil races. However, I have only heard the term 'orcs' applied to enemy soldiers, not to civilians, whereas the g-word was applied to all Asians and was definitely racist.
    Those who commit war crimes need to be fully prosecuted, and calling them nasty names is OK,

    but to think that ALL soldiers on the other side are sub-human ??

    Nope

  4. #3924
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    The root problem is that the invading Russian soldiers have committed and continue to commit war crimes. Behaving like orcs in other words. That people call them orcs is just a consequence of minor importance.
    /Erik

  5. #3925
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Those who commit war crimes need to be fully prosecuted, and calling them nasty names is OK,

    but to think that ALL soldiers on the other side are sub-human ??

    Nope
    I'll protest.
    Not a single soldier, even the worst POS, is sub-human. I may be more humane, but not more human than an orc pulling out teeth with pliers for his amusement.

    Unless somebody built a fully autonomous weaponized robot, which I hope is still part of future dystopia.
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  6. #3926
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Pray for Ukraine.
    If you don't support the war on terror, you're supporting the terrorists.
    Everyone is exhausted and here is a good article on how to cope
    Last edited by nick.kohl; 07-04-2022 at 02:49 AM.

  7. #3927
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    And if Ukraine falls, pray for Europe because China is watching very closely.

  8. #3928
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Australian PM visits Ukraine.
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-...edia/101205090
    Ukraine's ambassador to Australia, Vasyl Myroschnychenko, travelled to Kyiv for the visit, which he agitated for behind the scenes after delivering an official invitation from Mr Zelenskyy.
    At first, Australian Foreign Affairs officials pronounced the trip "impossible".
    But within weeks, plans were underway to make it happen.
    An advance security team comprising 2nd Commando and Special Air Service Regiment personnel were deployed to the country to work with the Ukraine Defence Force and the Australian embassy — now based temporarily in Poland — to make the visit happen.
    A member of the team said the capital was mostly safe.
    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  9. #3929
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Well, the only Congressperson to vote against the Forever Wars in 2001 was a psych nurse.

    She noted that in school she had learned to advise people not to make important decisions right after a traumatic experience.

    Her name is Barbara Lee.

    And my dear ol' Mum was also a psych nurse.
    Fair 'nuf.
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  10. #3930
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Another Ukraininan city in Luhansk falls. The Soviets are relying on their penchant for Verdun-like artillery progress. It is problematic how long they can keep it up. I read somewhere that the long range arty and MLRS from the West will be fully deployed in August, so we shall see what happens then. Until then, Slavi Ukraini!
    Last edited by Gerarddm; 07-05-2022 at 10:28 AM.
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  11. #3931
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    In Vietnam the US artilleyed the S out of everything. And? What was accomplished?
    Last edited by Osborne Russell; 07-04-2022 at 09:34 AM.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  12. #3932
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    In Vietnam the US artilleyed the S out of everything. And? What was accomplished?
    A retired Green Beret Lt. Colonel professor of mine was a good friend of General Westmoreland and had him come out and give a talk at our small Midwestern, working class Socialist university after the 60 Minutes hit piece. At a small cafe for lunch with the Colonel, not the General, I basically answered that question and everyone in the whole cafe got suddenly quiet.

    I too loudly stated that during the height of the Vietnam War, 20% of all the industrial production in Kansas was for the war, including every last napalm bomb body proudly made in East Wichita at the Beech Aircraft factory where they were called "drop tanks" not to upset the religious values of some of the workers...

  13. #3933
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    In Vietnam the US artilleyed the S out of everything. And? What was accomplished?

    You should read this book, [I]On Strategy: a Critical Analysis of the Vietnam War.

    https://www.commentary.org/articles/...-g-summers-jr/

    The author, Colonel Harry Summers was no slouch, and his book was fundamentally the US Army War College's post-Mortem of the Vietnam War.

    http://www.clausewitz.com/readings/SummersObitText.htm

    But before that you should read, Baron von Clausewitz's 1832 critical analysis of Napoleon, On War.

    One of Clausewitz's observations was that war is politics via force: it serves a political end.

    We blew up pretty much everything of interest in Vietnam. Multiple times. And we won pretty near every battle. And lost the war, because we had no real strategy - what was the political goal we were trying to achieve?

    Ukraine is Putin's war, not Russia's - he wants Ukraine as a part of his desire to re-create the Soviet/Russian empire. It is not a goal of the Russian people.

    Ukraine has a very clear political objective with respect to this conflict, and it is existential.

    For the west, while it might not be immediately an existential crisis, it is clear that Ukraine is the kickoff to something much bigger and more destabilizing. Hence the unity of purpose in supporting Ukraine.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  14. #3934
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  15. #3935
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I was waiting for this.

    Defense in depth is a great thing, but, at some point you have to stop the enemy. The UAF has done this in most sectors, but the loss of Lysychansk makes clear they haven’t managed it in Donbass. Clearly, the UAF bet is that the Russians will run out of steam. Just as clearly, so far, that bet has not paid off.
    It is worth noting though that taking Lysychansk took three months. It's an ever bigger effort for ever smaller gains. Given the trend, the Ukrainian promise to start counteroffensive in August may actually be credible.
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  16. #3936
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post


    It is worth noting though that taking Lysychansk took three months. It's an ever bigger effort for ever smaller gains.
    And that Lysychansk was the very tip of a deep salient, surrounded on three sides by consolidated Russian positions with easy logistics. Strategically it was a waste of troops and ammo for Russia. A couple of more such "victories" and Pyrrhus may have to go home.

  17. #3937
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    I was waiting for this.


    It is worth noting though that taking Lysychansk took three months. It's an ever bigger effort for ever smaller gains. Given the trend, the Ukrainian promise to start counteroffensive in August may actually be credible.
    It seems like the Ukrainian government was preparing people for the fall of the last major cities in Luhansk about a week into the battle. I'm amazed it took so long. The question is, how long can the Russians keep up these intense artillery bombardments? They've been expending about 10 shells for every one that gets lobbed back. Is this sustainable?

  18. #3938
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    They've been expending about 10 shells for every one that gets lobbed back. Is this sustainable?

    The only really sustainable ammunition expenditure is the production rate. The speculation is that our sanctions hurt the Russian industry severely, which would lower their production rate.
    Ukraine is receiving an increasing number of 155 mm artillery pieces, for which I would expect the West is set up to mass produce ammunition. The smart move would have been to order more 155 mm ammo from the industry at the same time as deciding to supply Ukraine with artillery in that calibre. It's also prudent to keep such decisions secret, so maybe that's what happened.
    Not spending to keep Ukraine from losing will be more costly in the long run since we would have to spend to counter an ever more aggressive Russia.
    /Erik

  19. #3939
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Ukraine have hit a couple of big Russian ammo dumps in the past couple of days- one was enormous as were the explosions and subsequent fire. That must surely make a dent in their dwindling supplies. And someone must be feeding the coordinates of the stockpiles to the Ukrainian gunners- these are precision strikes. JayInOz

  20. #3940
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayInOz View Post
    Ukraine have hit a couple of big Russian ammo dumps in the past couple of days- one was enormous as were the explosions and subsequent fire. That must surely make a dent in their dwindling supplies. And someone must be feeding the coordinates of the stockpiles to the Ukrainian gunners- these are precision strikes. JayInOz
    They're putting some of those long-range weapons they got to good use.

  21. #3941
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  22. #3942
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  23. #3943
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Looks like the DPR is now seizing foreign ships.
    That’s a great way to encourage other nations to allow their ships to visit your ports and carry your goods.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  24. #3944
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Russia can alway surrender unconditionally. Whatever they may do shall be judged with that in mind.
    If Russia wins, there will be no Ukraine; if Ukraine wins, there will be a new Russia.

    -- Dmytro Kuleba, Foreign Minister of Ukraine

  25. #3945
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Russia can alway surrender unconditionally. Whatever they may do shall be judged with that in mind.
    Or, they could just to home and say no more about it.

  26. #3946
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post
    It is worth noting though that taking Lysychansk took three months. It's an ever bigger effort for ever smaller gains. Given the trend, the Ukrainian promise to start counteroffensive in August may actually be credible.
    I like this way of thinking about it. I was very concerned that the war was turning in Russia's favor, but this makes sense.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

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  27. #3947
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    The sanctions are expected to really begin to cripple Russia from about August on. That is, about the same time that Ukraine will have the armaments it has requested, the trained soldiers to use them, and their big counter offensive organised. If the world keeps supporting Ukraine then Russian cannot win. But a lot more innocents are going to die before it's over. JayInOz

  28. #3948
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Putin said that "Russia has not yet started anything seriously in Ukraine".
    "Today we hear that they want to defeat us on the battlefield, well, what can I say, let them try. We haven't really started anything yet".


    at the same time, German left argues about whether they should start using Nord Stream 2...
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  29. #3949
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post

    at the same time, German left argues about whether they should start using Nord Stream 2...
    Because financing fascists is what the German left is all about? Weird.

  30. #3950
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by WszystekPoTrochu View Post


    at the same time, German left argues about whether they should start using Nord Stream 2...
    I am directly involved in German (and therefore EU) gas alternatives from Russian sources. Germany had plans for a hydrogen economy scheduled to come onstream around 2029; those plans have now been brought forward to coming onstream next year. There are also diversion pipelines being built to connect to Scandinavian sources that are being fast tracked. I work in Non-destructive testing, basically ultrasonic and radiographic imaging of metals, particularly welding and I am a specialist in pipeline welds, so I am hooked into the information stream of the industry. The Germans were caught with their pants down while guzzling Russian gas it is true, but they are not pissing around now, believe me. The NDT for a particular project was recently awarded the exact same day that the government officially approved the project, something completely unheard of in the history of pipelines. Ever. They are also technically breaking their own labour laws by insisting on a 6 day week, every week.

    I follow German politics as far as I am able to understand them, but a few ministers contemplating using NS2 does not mean they will do it.

    but..

    ...winter is coming, as always (like with covid) it is a balance between crashing your economy (when you will not be able to help anyone), and running as fast as you can to do the right thing, to fix what needs to be fixed. Germans have taken in and housed a huge amount of Ukrainian refugees, some of whom I have met near me. I realise given your nationality the sensitivities involved, but lets not be too quick to bash Germans eh?

    Martin.

  31. #3951
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    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    but lets not be too quick to bash Germans eh?

    Martin.
    Sometimes you're no fun Martin

  32. #3952
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  33. #3953
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    Just found this on “Medium”. Looks interesting. Cannot vouch for veracity:

    https://nadinbrzezinski.medium.com/p...g-de041913d542
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  34. #3954
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    According to the news feed, Russia has withdrawn about 800 soldiers and 100 vehicles from the garrison in Alakurtti at the Finnish border. It appears that Russia doesn't have the resources to signal displeasure with Finland joining NATO; everything is needed for the war in Ukraine.
    /Erik

  35. #3955
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Just found this on “Medium”. Looks interesting. Cannot vouch for veracity:

    https://nadinbrzezinski.medium.com/p...g-de041913d542
    There was more information that leads one to suspect that that’s because RF losses have been somewhere between very heavy and crippling. Ukraine military intelligence today said their agents have confirmed Kremlin authorities in Kherson are burning military dead to conceal losses, using open pits outside the city. The goal is to disfigure and char the corpses enough to make them unidentifiable, at which point the occupation authorities bury the dead soldiers as unidentified civilians killed by the Ukrainian. I know that sounds too ghoulish and ruthless even to consider, and that’s fine, just bear that theory in mind when you get to the part below about Belgorod.
    https://medium.com/@Stefan.Korshak/j...s-712e46218cb6
    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

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