Ukraine

[sandtown]

Johan, you said you read this thread, go back and read it again. Nobody here is denying that ukrainians are shelling ukrainians,.

Your comment is disengenuous. In fact, invective is directed at anyone here who criticises Ukraine. (yesterday it was when I posted about religious freedom, trade unions and political parties)

People here went bananas when I posted the US State Dept. report that was very unflattering to Ukr.

Is Ruusia worse ?? In all likelihood, yes - but that it not the point.

I'm very surprised that no one yet has challenged the corruption post. Give it time.

[L.W. Baxter]

Your comment is disengenuous. In fact, invective is directed at anyone here who criticises Ukraine. (yesterday it was when I posted about religious freedom, trade unions and political parties)

People here went bananas when I posted the US State Dept. report that was very unflattering to Ukr.

Is Ruusia worse ?? In all likelihood, yes - but that it not the point.

I'm very surprised that no one yet has challenged the corruption post. Give it time.

maybe you are catching on. that, indeed, is not the point.

[Paul Pless]

In fact, invective is directed at anyone here who criticises Ukraine.

i've criticized ukraine here a number of times; including questioning our own support for ukraine

i've sensed no real 'invective' from anybody towards me over my posts here

[Osborne Russell]

The Washington Post reports a purge of officials accused of corruption in the Ukrainian administration.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...tion-zelensky/

That’s definitely good news, not least because the Zelensky government has the confidence to do it.

Better yet, IMHO, because they have the balls to do it regardless of the uncertainty, because it needs to be done. Part of fighting the invader.

ETA I guess it's the same thing.

[Nicholas Carey]

For those who can read German an interesting article in the Frankfurter allgemeine.
https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/...-18625511.html

My German is rusty beyond belief.

Here's the Google Translate edition:

https://www-faz-net.translate.goog/a..._x_tr_pto=wapp

[George Jung]

Gosh.

Why don't ya call a troll, a troll?

Why dance?

[George Jung]

I imagine your new pen-pal is busy composing, then using google translate, as we speak.

Patience.

[Osborne Russell]

Shows how anti-war can be made into an ideology. Attempted anyway. In addition to the normal defects of ideology, there is the problem that it must lead to pacifism, but pacifism takes a very rare kind of courage. So you get a lot of flailing, attempting to escape what cannot be escaped.

[Nicholas Carey]

The "pro-Putin propaganda" alluded to earlier primarily consists of laying the [demonstrably false] argument

- That Putin's Russia has legitimate grievances with Ukraine

- That Ukraine aligning with Western Europe or democracy and/or NATO somehow threatens Russia

Further, the "separatist movement" in Donbas/Eastern Ukraine/Crimea is largely funded and supplied by Kremlin provocateurs who ginned it up by stirring the pot, much in the same way that Milosovich stirred the pot to gin up the Balkan Wars in the 90s.

Arguing that the ensuing civil war is somehow evidence of popular support for becoming a part of the Mk. III Russian Empire under Emperor-for-Life Vladimir is likewise false.

[L.W. Baxter]

add to that the latest, nicholas,

--that corruption in ukraine de-legitimizes their political borders.

[Peerie Maa]

Vadim joined the forum solely to post on the Ukraine thread. Johan joined the forum solely to post on the Ukraine thread. That is at odds to everyone else posting on this thread, who all joined the forum because of wooden boats.

A Point of Order.
There has been one post to another thread apart from this one:
01-21-2023, 01:19 PM
Johan R replied to a thread Wood Mast Strength Formula? in Building / Repair

Just the one.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

BBC report on the corruption news today :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64383388

[Johan R]

jesus

He wont help you. If you invoked His name through your own exasperation about others commenting, perhaps a drive-by posting of your own, with no relevant Ukraine connection, was not leading by good example. Asking others not to do what you yourself have done is hypocritical.

[Nicholas Carey]

add to that the latest, nicholas,

--that corruption in ukraine de-legitimizes their political borders.

Right, I forgot that one.

By that standard, Russia is fair game for pretty much anybody

Finland and/or Sweden would like Ingermanland and Nyenskans back (area around modern-day St-Petersburg). And I'm pretty sure Lithuania and/or Poland would Kaliningrad back as well.

[Johan R]

Hello Johan R

Nobody here is dictating what language that you, or anyone else uses on the forum.

Nobody has said that you should write in Swedish.

You made it clear you do not speak Swedish, so please allow me to help you.

Då får du börja bevisa omedelbart. Gärna på svenska.

Which translates to : Then you get to start proving immediately. Preferably in Swedish.

He has requested/demanded me to answer in Swedish, and I have politely declined.

Thus, you are not a victim here.

I have never made such a claim.

Speaking for myself, I think that it would be great if you wrote your next long post - the one above was 260 words - in Swedish. I don't see any reason why you wouldn't agree to this request, since it is from multiple posters here.

Just because multiple people ask for something, is no reason to comply. If you wish to see my responses in Swedish, use a translate tool.

Thank you,

Tom[/QUOTE]

[Osborne Russell]

As I recall, one of the characters in the film, The Thin Red Line, was a pacifist, but also a very good soldier.

I think that one can be a pacifist, but also understand that a ceasefire with Russia would be...problematic.

My feeling is that Putin loves pacifists...outside of Russia...because they are the right tools for the job.

Watched it twice, I saw no pacifist. Pacifism is not a mere distaste for war, or opposition to a particular war. Pacifism is when you let yourself be killed rather than fight, under any circumstances at all.

A pacifist cannot be a soldier. Your duty is to kill. You owe it to your fellow soldiers. If, in an instant, a soldier decides he is a pacifist, his first duty is to inform his fellow soldiers that he's no longer in the fight -- one's responsiblity as a pacifist.

You can't be a secret pacifist. It's dishonest, failing to speak when there is a duty to speak.

And clearly you cannot advocate the use of force by others, such as you refuse to do yourself.

[Johan R]

Heh. It is true that a hallmark of trolls is that they dish it out, dish it out, dish it out, then cry victimization when there is backlash.

Speaking for myself, if I claimed to be Swedish, was questioned about it by a longtime posting Swede...I'd post a few hundred words in Swedish...rather than playing the victim.

I probably would too. But, if you was paying attention, you would have noticed i have made no claims and already pointed out i am not Swedish.

Still not a victim.

NOTHING TO DO WITH UKRAINE.

[Osborne Russell]

The "pro-Putin propaganda" alluded to earlier primarily consists of laying the [demonstrably false] argument

- That Putin's Russia has legitimate grievances with Ukraine

- That Ukraine aligning with Western Europe or democracy and/or NATO somehow threatens Russia

Further, the "separatist movement" in Donbas/Eastern Ukraine/Crimea is largely funded and supplied by Kremlin provocateurs who ginned it up by stirring the pot, much in the same way that Milosovich stirred the pot to gin up the Balkan Wars in the 90s.

Arguing that the ensuing civil war is somehow evidence of popular support for becoming a part of the Mk. III Russian Empire under Emperor-for-Life Vladimir is likewise false.

As with the Russian-backed separatist movements in Georgia, which succeeded, because the West could not bring itself to believe that Putin was who he said he was.

[Osborne Russell]

add to that the latest, nicholas,

--that corruption in ukraine de-legitimizes their political borders.

How so?

[epoxyboy]

How so?

Take a look at the Trump is Toast thread. However many pages about about corrupt delegitimised politicians.

Pete

[Johan R]

If you want to apply the ethnic measure then you must admit that the russian federation forces shell innocent russians,

I have no intention of applying "ethnic measures", and neither Vadim or myself would dispute Russians have been killed by Russian fire.

As for your departed friend Vadim, he got branded a russian apoplogist because he utterly failed to present coherent arguments for the "special police operation" the RF is presently undertaking in Ukraine.

Why would he have a coherent argument for something he did not agree with? Can you show me a post that says otherwise?

All he did was repeat endlessly that there is another side to the story, and that there are reasons why the russians invaded. But he could not give us one concrete example for either of those, all he did was repeat the usual stuff about Minsk agreements, Azov battalions and bad ukrainians.

Vadim was in the Donbas far longer than i could stomach, and the situation in the South where he went, was not like that in the North, according to him. I never heard him once say what the Russians were doing is right.

So, if you want to present a more nuanced view of the current and past troubles in Ukraine, be my guest.

Was not my point being here, and given what i have read here, reality is an unwelcome guest to too many.

If the ukrainians are bad we want to know what they did, when and where.

Those that were responsible for the killing of Vadims interpretor may or may not be bought to justice in the next decade, or written of like so many people as an unfortunate incident in the fog of war.

As for your opinion about "EU Law" regarding free speech let me assure you that your understanding about it is about as poor as dear Vadims was regarding minority protection

.

Not quite sure what you are alluding to with that. There is a distinct difference between "free speech" and on-line harassment.

[Osborne Russell]

Take a look at the Trump is Toast thread. However many pages about about corrupt delegitimised politicians.

Pete

All that as may be, what do corrupt delegitimised politicians have to do with borders?

[Nicholas Carey]

add to that the latest, nicholas,

--that corruption in ukraine de-legitimizes their political borders.

How so?

Because that's Putin's justification.

According to Putin, the Ukrainian government is corrupt: ergo, it's not a legitimate country, and thus, Russia is entitled to take Ukraine by force of arms and incorporate as a province of Russia (where it rightfully belongs, anyway.)

Gotta save Ukraine from itself. He's just looking out for the people of Ukraine out of the goodness of his heart.

[dutchpp]

The Germans finally gave permission to export the Leopard 2 to Ukraine according to Dutch radio news a few minutes ago.
I still must find a link to confirm this message.

The Dutch link: https://nos.nl/artikel/2461084-der-s...n-aan-oekraine

According to this link the source is Der Spiegel (hmmm) but according to their message Germany is going to donate Leopards 2 as well.

[beernd]

Der Spiegel is a serious source, maybe you confuse it with the BILD zeitung whuch is rather dubious

[Osborne Russell]

Because that's Putin's justification.

According to Putin, the Ukrainian government is corrupt: ergo, it's not a legitimate country, and thus, Russia is entitled to take Ukraine by force of arms and incorporate as a province of Russia (where it rightfully belongs, anyway.)

Gotta save Ukraine from itself. He's just looking out for the people of Ukraine out of the goodness of his heart.

Right, "anyway". I always took that to be a throwaway. If it were the least corrupt nation ever, Russia would still have grounds to invade, by Holy Mother Russia logic.

If corruption were enough, we should invade Russia.

[Nicholas Carey]

Here's Der Spiegel

https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deuts...e-482d58fd850f

Google translate:

https://www-spiegel-de.translate.goo..._x_tr_pto=wapp

Germany sends Leopard tanks to Ukraine

After months of debate, Chancellor Scholz decided to deliver battle tanks to Ukraine. Apparently, the allies also want to go along with it. Abrams tanks could come from the USA.

By Christopher Hickman
01/24/2023, 6:31 p.m

[paywall]

[dutchpp]

The US will do the same;
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/24/p...ine/index.html

[jdmcintyre]

This was in the Guardian yesterday: When will Putin give up Ukraine? Only when his inner circle forces him to stop.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ssia-president

[George.]

So back to the question: how many tanks is the minimum to actually make a difference?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

The news seems confirmed. So, at least one company of Leopard II tanks from Germany, at least the same from Poland, 18 from Holland (all they have) and a company of Challenger II tanks from Britain plus “some” Abrams from the USA.

14+ 14 + 18 + 14 = 60. + x

I think that Sarkozy will want to be seen to be sending a company of Leclercs also.

The Armed Forces of Ukraine want 300 modern main battle tanks and 800 infantry fighting vehicles, so a lot more than have been promised so far.

In other unconfirmed news Russia is said to be negotiating with the Taliban for all the US stuff that was left behind. This seems to say something about Russian desperation but this American kit can presumably be used for false flag stunts.

[George Jung]

It'd be a real shame were that 'kit' not to arrive in russia.

Wonder how that would work?

[Nicholas Carey]

The news seems confirmed. So, at least one company of Leopard II tanks from Germany, at least the same from Poland, 18 from Holland (all they have) and a company of Challenger II tanks from Britain plus “some” Abrams from the USA.

14+ 14 + 18 + 14 = 60. + x

I think that Sarkozy will want to be seen to be sending a company of Leclercs also.

The Armed Forces of Ukraine want 300 modern main battle tanks and 800 infantry fighting vehicles, so a lot more than have been promised so far.

In other unconfirmed news Russia is said to be negotiating with the Taliban for all the US stuff that was left behind. This seems to say something about Russian desperation but this American kit can presumably be used for false flag stunts.

A US armor brigade, c. 4,750 soldiers, is 87 Abrams, 152 Bradley IFVs, 18 M109s (155mm self-propelled howitzers), and 45 armed M113 armored personnel carriers.

An armor division is 3 brigades plus division artillery and aviation.

I'm sure a brigade's worth would pack a fairly hefty punch.

[sandtown]

According to Putin, the Ukrainian government is corrupt:.

Therefore we are forbidden from discussing or believing in Ukr corruption,

because to do so makes one a Putinista.

[sandtown]

BBC report on the corruption news today :

Related to corruption, it sure would be nice if UKR put a halt to the arming and training of white nationalist extremists in their country, including in their security forces.