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Thread: Ukraine

  1. #9171
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by mikefrommontana View Post
    Or that the staff and patients were Russian medical corpsman and soldiers.
    And if that was the case......a war crime. Ukraine has not responded about it.

  2. #9172
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    What was the source of the report? C&P it pleases.
    Russia accuses Ukraine of killing 14 in 'deliberate' strike on hospital | Reuters

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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Vadim, you are a war crime.

  4. #9174
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    All that says is "The Russian Defense Ministry says" - as if I'd believe a single word out of their mouths/computers. The question I'd ask is "Do you have a credible source for the report?"
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  5. #9175
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    All that says is "The Russian Defense Ministry says" - as if I'd believe a single word out of their mouths/computers. The question I'd ask is "Do you have a credible source for the report?"
    Everyone has their own definition of "credible". Boris Johnson claims today that Putin threatened him with a missile, but, given he lost his position due to his continuous lying, would you call him credible?

    I did say there has been "chatter" regarding a false flag flag event, with no press on the ground, nothing can be confirmed.

    The same ministry you do not believe a single word also released this comment:

    Russia’s defense ministry on Wednesday blamed the illegal use of mobile phones by its soldiers for a deadly Ukrainian missile strike that it said killed 89 servicemen



  6. #9176
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Reuters was not able to independently verify the report.
    The alleged strike hit
    Russian spokesmen are known to be liars.
    Ben Wallace, the defence secretary, also spoke in the documentary about a visit to Moscow in February in an unsuccessful attempt to negotiate and avert war. He met his Russian counterpart, Sergei Shoigu, as well as the chief of the general staff, Valery Gerasimov.
    “I remember saying to minister Shoigu, ‘They will fight’ and he said, ‘My mother is Ukrainian; they won’t!’ He also said he had no intention of invading,” Wallace said.
    “That would be ‘vran’e’ in the Russian language. ‘Vran’e’ I think is sort of a demonstration of bullying or strength: I’m going to lie to you. You know I’m lying. I know you know I’m lying and I’m still going to lie to you. He knew I knew and I knew he knew. But I think it was about saying: I’m powerful.
    “It was the fairly chilling but direct lie of what they were not going to do that I think to me confirmed they were going to do it. I remember as we were walking out General Gerasimov said, ‘Never again will we be humiliated. We used to be the fourth army in the world, we’re now number two. It’s now America and us.’ And there in that minute was that sense of potentially why [they were doing this].”
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...uk-in-a-minute
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  7. #9177
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    More from Chris Hedges - he is on a roll today.

    In this one he quite properly takes on the Neo-Cons and names names . . .

    including the Institute for the Study of War, which is posted here as a credible source - it is not.

    People, why do you find credbile those who have lied to you over and over again ??

    https://www.salon.com/2022/04/12/pim...back-for-more/

  8. #9178
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Aus and France are jointly going to manufacture artillery shells for Ukraine.

  9. #9179
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    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Aus and France are jointly going to manufacture artillery shells for Ukraine.
    10 submarines worth?
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: Ukraine

    ...
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  11. #9181
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    Why do you find sources to be credible that have lied to you repeatedly ??

    Not doing that is a basic tenent in Critical Thinking 101
    Last edited by sandtown; 01-30-2023 at 09:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Aus and France are jointly going to manufacture artillery shells for Ukraine.
    It was pretty shocking how low USA artillery shell production currently is. https://www.defensenews.com/land/202...ry-production/

  13. #9183
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    10 submarines worth?
    I think it extremely unlikely Aus will ever have an American built nuke powered submarine, at least not in the next 40 years. I'd take bets on it but I'd not be here to collect. We may have a few ratingsd and a Petty Officer or 3 on board American subs, a sop if you will, but that is all. But we've just completed what PineGap starts, the sub contracting of Australia's defence to America. All our eggs are in your particularly dodgy basket, and as usual any Pacific war will be fought on our continent, not yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Landrith View Post
    It was pretty shocking how low USA artillery shell production currently is. https://www.defensenews.com/land/202...ry-production/

    Shouldn't be that shocking. Even at the height of our Iraq/Afghanistan adventuring, our burn rate for arty rounds wasn't multiple 10s of thousands per month.

    Since we've pretty much exeunted there, the burn rate is down to whatever gets shot in training. And all we needed was replacement rate to make sure the stockpiles in the armories didn't get drawn down.

    That's all gone out the window now.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    Shouldn't be that shocking. Even at the height of our Iraq/Afghanistan adventuring, our burn rate for arty rounds wasn't multiple 10s of thousands per month.

    Since we've pretty much exeunted there, the burn rate is down to whatever gets shot in training. And all we needed was replacement rate to make sure the stockpiles in the armories didn't get drawn down.

    That's all gone out the window now.
    Yes, but our central planners since 2016 (Victoria Nuland I'm looking at you) were taking us here all along. Sort of short sighted to fight Russia to the last Ukranian and not have even geared up artillery shell production.

    I am switching conspiracy theories. This is really modeled on US war fighting with complex multi sided ground conflict in Syria. Ukraine just thinks they are our ally, this is actually a war by Uncle Sam against Western Europe that started in 2019 with Wall Street kneecapping the LIBOR rate and the London Metals market. Now the Fed has joined in with heightened interest rates destroying Europe's economic future. The US tanks will arrive a year after they are needed by Ukraine and instead will be given to soon to be Greater Poland/Swedish empire. USA's new vassal super state.
    Last edited by Landrith; 01-30-2023 at 11:58 PM.

  16. #9186
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Landrith View Post
    It was pretty shocking how low USA artillery shell production currently is. https://www.defensenews.com/land/202...ry-production/
    No mystery there, I explained the problem a few times before. Everybody exited the cold war with huge stocks, and downsized its military forces at the same time. Technology progress means that existing production lines are converted since private factories can't afford to simply mothball them.
    In the case of artillery shells, the focus switched to intelligent munitions and even less dumb stuff was manufactured then required to maintain cold war era stocks.
    Just take a look at how many tanks the US can produce per year, the factory is only open because of political concerns, in 2016 they had about 100 workers on site.

  17. #9187
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    NO, I did not say or write that . . .
    Hmmm

    There was a response to a post i made that had precisely that written. I didn't respond at the time but I did make a mental note. It appears to no longer exist...
    I retract that statement with apologies in light of not being able to provide the quote.

    You say you didn't say or write that, but you don't deny believing it.

    the war would end if Zelensky agrees to Russia's terms. .
    If you don't believe it, how do you think the war can end quickly?
    If you do believe it, how do you think it will play out?

    You've been dancing around those two questions since you joined this thread.
    Running with the hare and hunting with the hound.


    I'm still very curious, what does your response mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Sure, a death struggle - what could possibly go wrong ??
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  18. #9188
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    Chris Hedges weighs in . . .
    Empires in terminal decline leap from one military fiasco to the next. The war in Ukraine, another bungled attempt to reassert U.S. global hegemony, fits this pattern.
    Maybe he doesn't realise it was Russia who invaded Ukraine. I mean - its all over the news....?

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    More from Chris Hedges - he is on a roll today.
    You take this guy seriously? He sounds like our resident equivocists - all hyperbole and insult, no substance.
    They are pimps of war, puppets of the Pentagon, a state within a state, and the defense contractors who lavishly fund their think tanks — Project for the New American Century, American Enterprise Institute, Foreign Policy Initiative, Institute for the Study of War, the Atlantic Council and the Brookings Institution. Like some mutant strain of an antibiotic-resistant bacteria, they cannot be vanquished. It does not matter how wrong they are, how absurd their theories, how many times they lie or denigrate other cultures and societies as uncivilized or how many murderous military interventions go bad. They are immovable props, the parasitic mandarins of power vomited up in the dying days of any empire, including ours, leaping from one self-defeating catastrophe to the next.

    Yep - I made up a word.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  19. #9189
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Johan R View Post
    Everyone has their own definition of "credible". Boris Johnson claims today that Putin threatened him with a missile, but, given he lost his position due to his continuous lying, would you call him credible?

    I did say there has been "chatter" regarding a false flag flag event, with no press on the ground, nothing can be confirmed.

    The same ministry you do not believe a single word also released this comment:

    Russia’s defense ministry on Wednesday blamed the illegal use of mobile phones by its soldiers for a deadly Ukrainian missile strike that it said killed 89 servicemen


    Those claims are an integral part of Russian propaganda. With no sources outside the Russcist propaganda factories and Russian government to support them.
    Obvious blatant lies is what I call it.
    And I am sure you know it is lies. Though money talks and you are paid to tell lies.
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

  20. #9190
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    ^ regarding Johan's quote, Russia is struggling to keep its army professional and disciplined.
    It gave away the fact that phones brought a rain of death, but underplayed the figures - though kept them high enough for impact.

    Its the Bunnings add approach to training your staff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_2wis9yKSg
    When you have too many staff to get into a training room - you teach them how to behave with a popular add campaign.

    The statement is not proof of honesty, its proof of incompetence.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  21. #9191
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Can we not just ignore this dingle berry and move on with out distraction?

  22. #9192
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    More from Chris Hedges - he is on a roll today.

    In this one he quite properly takes on the Neo-Cons and names names . . .

    including the Institute for the Study of War, which is posted here as a credible source - it is not.

    People, why do you find credbile those who have lied to you over and over again ??

    https://www.salon.com/2022/04/12/pim...back-for-more/
    If you knew a bit about what is actually going on in reality on the ground in Europe you would be better at telling propaganda apart from truth.
    Those scums of the earth mentioned in the link do indeed exist. We have seen American warmongers creating wars to benefit their own interrests.

    However this time things are different. From the wiewpoint of an American who has never before cared for nor known anything about Europe it may look confusingly similar but there is a significant difference.

    This time we are dealing with an expansive empire. Built upon personal loyalties and distribution of wealth and power. If the emperror runs out of newly aquired wealth and power to share out to his loyal followers the empire will collapse. He knows it. His followers know it. We all know it in all the independent states bordering the empire.
    The empire must expand. The czar and his followers wiew it as their birthright and the destiny of the empire. A very convenient birthright and destiny since they use it to enrich themselves massively. The people in the empire is there only to serve the mythical body of the empire. Through extrication of wealth or as cannon fodder on the battle field.

    There are two ways of expanding such an empire. The normal way is by scaring and bullying the voters in a nearby state into electing an empire puppet to run their state in exchange for peace. Every attempt at democracy in such a state is wiewed as a direch violation of the destiny and birthright of the empire and must therefore be crushed. Over time the puppet state is integrated fully into the empire and it's people can be used by the empire for whatever need the empire has.
    Any attempt by nearby states to protect themselves against this ongoing proces of integration and expansion is wieved as a violation of the rights of the empire and therefore an agression and a reason for an all out blatant invasion.

    I find it illogical that Americans who claim to be pro democracy disregard the right up millions of people in states bordering Russia to vote and elect anything but Russian rule. Who are they to decide whose votes count and whose don't.

    I have written about this before Sandtown and you refused to comment. Instead you just piled up new claims and new links to writers promoting the idea that any resistance against Russcist expansion in one's homeland equals warmongering. Please Sandtown read this and comment!
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

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    Default Ukraine

    [URL]https://scheerpost.com/2023/01/29/chris-hedges-ukraine-the-war-that-went-wrong/
    I like this bit of claptrap:

    "The rapid upgrade of sophisticated military hardware and aid provided to Ukraine is not a good sign for the NATO alliance. It takes many months, if not years, of training to operate and coordinate these weapons systems. Tank battles - I was in the last major tank battle outside Kuwait City during the first Gulf war as a reporter - are highly choreographed and complex operations. Armor must work in close concert with air power, warships, infantry and artillery batteries. It will be many, many months, if not years, before Ukrainian forces receive adequate training to operate this equipment and coordinate the diverse components of a modern battlefield."

    Apparently, this guy hasn't been paying attention:

    1. The theoretical: Ukraine's armed forces have been working with various NATO member states on training and getting up to snuff with modern combined arms tactics for [at least] the past 8+ years, since Russia's invasion of Crimea in 2014.

    2. The practical: over the past 11 months, Ukraine's armed forces have demonstrated themselves to be quite competent in combined arms tactics, viz. the current current stalemate in which Russia, a [nominally, and on paper] vastly superior power, finds itself bogged down.

    3. Regarding the failures of Saudi armed forces, there's a number of interesting pieces analyzing just why that's so. Oddly, failure to learn combined arms tactics or hiw to drive an M1 Abrams aren't cited as a cause.

    If you read many of these, for instance

    https://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

    You'll notice a lot of similarities to the situation of a certain fascist expeditionary force currently bogged down in Ukraine.
    Last edited by Nicholas Carey; 01-31-2023 at 03:12 AM.
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    ^ Without wanting to nitpick the quoted claptrap, armour working in close concert with warships? That would be a cool trick, even with a navy. It's a non issue here, as effectively Ukraine does not. So that should simplify things enough that maybe they can cope.
    Sarcasm emoji required.

    Pete
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  25. #9195
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    ^ regarding Johan's quote, Russia is struggling to keep its army professional and disciplined.
    It gave away the fact that phones brought a rain of death, but underplayed the figures - though kept them high enough for impact.

    The statement is not proof of honesty, its proof of incompetence.
    At least someone has had coffee today. Making an announcement is often a way to cover up for own failings. If it was a propaganda piece, why "only" 14 dead, why not 30 and most of them children, if the sole purpose was indeed propaganda?

    So quick to forget Ukraines reaction for its own defence missiles killing people in Poland, was to say it was a Russian attack on NATO. Truth is the first casualty in war.

  26. #9196
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    The ISW Russian​ offensive campaign assessment, January 30.
    https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-january-30-2023


    Key Takeaways

    • Western, Ukrainian, and Russian sources continue to indicate that Russia is preparing for an imminent offensive, supporting ISW’s assessment that an offensive in the coming months is the most likely course of action (MLCOA).
    • Iranian state media reported that Iran and Russia established direct financial communication channels between Iranian banks and more than 800 Russian banks on January 29.
    • Russian forces continued ground attacks to regain lost positions west of Kreminna as Ukrainian forces conducted counteroffensive operations northwest of Svatove.
    • Ukrainian forces continued to strike Russian force concentrations in rear areas in Luhansk Oblast.
    • Russian forces continued to conduct ground attacks across the Donetsk Oblast front line.
    • Russian forces continued to make marginal territorial gains near Bakhmut.
    • Russian forces did not conduct any confirmed ground attacks in Zaporizhia Oblast.
    • The Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) continued measures to professionalize the Russian military as it faces continued backlash against these measures.
    • Russian forces and occupation authorities continue to target Crimean Tatars in an effort to associate anti-Russia sentiment with extremist or terrorist activity.

  27. #9197
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by heimlaga View Post

    I haven't accused you of being a Russian propagandist. .
    Quote Originally Posted by heimlaga View Post
    . Though money talks and you are paid to tell lies.
    Still lying to yourself?

  28. #9198
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    Default Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    ^ Without wanting to nitpick the quoted claptrap, armour working in close concert with warships? That would be a cool trick, even with a navy. It's a non issue here, as effectively Ukraine does not. So that should simplify things enough that maybe they can cope.
    Sarcasm emoji required.

    Pete

    I would hope that the forward observers and naval gunfire liaison officers who are working in concert with armor and calling in fire missions from the Big Guns™️ have the common sense not to call in a fire mission on friendlies. Whether or not that those Big Guns™️ are located on warships or on land.



    [Does Ukraine have a significant navy? Asking for a friend]
    Last edited by Nicholas Carey; 01-31-2023 at 03:48 AM.
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  29. #9199
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    ^ No - Ukraine has essentially no navy at all, not even a frigate, let alone a battle wagon that anyone forward observe for.

    Pete
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Johan R View Post
    Still lying to yourself?
    Still ensnaring yourself step by step in half truths and lies and thereby showing more and more of whom you really are. You aren't exactly trying to make yourself more reliable.
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Ukraine also has tank battalions that are doing a pretty good job.
    Learning tank craft, and integrating it into their operations, is not an issue.

    sure, the indicator will be on the left....I think they'll figure it out.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  32. #9202
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Johan R View Post
    At least someone has had coffee today. Making an announcement is often a way to cover up for own failings. If it was a propaganda piece, why "only" 14 dead, why not 30 and most of them children, if the sole purpose was indeed propaganda?

    So quick to forget Ukraines reaction for its own defence missiles killing people in Poland, was to say it was a Russian attack on NATO. Truth is the first casualty in war.
    Where did Ukraine claim that the missile was Russian attack on NATO? I seem to have missed that.
    The western gutter press may have jumped to that conclusion, but truth does not sell newspapers as much as outright lies.

  33. #9203
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    Default Re: Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Johan R View Post
    Everyone has their own definition of "credible". Boris Johnson claims today that Putin threatened him with a missile, but, given he lost his position due to his continuous lying, would you call him credible?

    I did say there has been "chatter" regarding a false flag flag event, with no press on the ground, nothing can be confirmed.

    The same ministry you do not believe a single word also released this comment:

    Russia’s defense ministry on Wednesday blamed the illegal use of mobile phones by its soldiers for a deadly Ukrainian missile strike that it said killed 89 servicemen


    I trust Boris Johnson as much as I trust Trump. Whether I trust either of them more than Russia's Defense Ministry is doubtful. As far as the mobile thing - any good liar knows there has to be an occasional kernel of truth to make the lies believable.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  34. #9204
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    Boris in WAPO today.
    Stating the obvious, but doing it well. He is a wordsmith first.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...-nato-ukraine/

    Well, we tried creative ambiguity, and see where it got us. For decades, we have used diplomatic doublespeak on the subject of NATO and Ukraine — and it has ended in total disaster.
    We spent years telling Ukrainians that we have an “open door” policy in NATO, and that they have the right to “choose their own destiny,” and that Russia should not be able to exercise a veto.
    And all that time we have overtly signaled to Moscow that Ukraine is never going to join the alliance — because so many NATO members will simply exercise their veto themselves.
    In principle, yes; in practice, no. That has been the message.
    And what is the result of all this sucking and blowing at once? What have we achieved by speaking softly out of both sides of our mouths?
    The result is the worst war in Europe for 80 years. Russian President Vladimir Putin has destroyed countless lives, homes, hopes and dreams. He has also destroyed the slightest reason to sympathize with him or to humor him in his paranoia.
    Along the way, he has vaporized the case against Ukrainian membership of NATO.
    People used to say that the Ukrainian population was too divided on the subject of NATO membership; and before 2014 you certainly could have made that argument. Look at the numbers now. Support for NATO membership in Ukraine is now stratospheric — 83 percent, according to one recent poll.
    People used to claim that Ukraine wasn’t properly militarily compatible with NATO. Today, Ukrainians are deploying a dizzying variety of equipment from NATO countries, with the utmost skill and bravery.
    There is absolutely nothing that NATO could teach Ukrainians about fighting a war — in fact, there is a lot that they could teach us. Above all, people used to argue that the prospect of Ukrainian membership in NATO was “provocative” to Putin and to Russia. In truth, we should never have accepted this argument.
    We should have insisted on the reality — that the Kremlin had nothing to fear from NATO because it is a defensive alliance. But member countries accepted this bogus point; I admit that for a time I accepted it.
    So look at what happened when we went out of our way not to provoke Putin. We mollified him at the Bucharest NATO summit in 2008. Ukrainians wanted a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP). They got some warm words about eventual NATO membership, but no MAP. Putin attended that summit and pronounced himself satisfied with the result.
    What did he do next? In 2014, he invaded Donbas and Crimea, with his trademark combination of blatant lies and brutality. Instead of properly punishing him, we responded with a policy of craven appeasement.
    Far from helping Ukrainians to evict him from their country, we set up the tragicomic “Normandy Format,” under which Russia and Ukraine were treated as though they were equally at fault, when Russia was plainly the aggressor and Ukraine was the victim. Ever since then, NATO membership has been theoretically on the agenda, but everyone has known that it just wasn’t going to happen, or at least not in the political lifetimes of anyone around the table.
    So, Ukrainians had the worst of both worlds. NATO had spouted enough fine phrases about Ukrainian membership for Putin to use in his propaganda and to claim that Russia was being threatened with encirclement.
    And yet the reality was that NATO had done nothing to protect Ukraine and nothing to advance the cause of Ukrainian membership.
    The truth is, if you had asked me before Putin’s invasion when Ukraine would join NATO, I would have said, “Roughly when hell freezes over, or not for at least 10 years.”
    But then, if you had asked me whether we would now be sending Challenger tanks to Ukraine, or Abrams tanks, or whether the Germans would now be sending Leopard tanks — I would have thought you were mad. Just as I would have thought you were mad if you had told me that Putin was going to invade.
    Putin didn’t invade because he thought that Ukraine was going to join NATO. He always knew that was vanishingly unlikely. He attacked Ukraine because he believed — with abundant evidence — that we were not really serious about protecting Ukraine. He attacked because he wanted to rebuild the old Soviet imperium and because he believed — foolishly — that he was going to win.
    If we had been brave and consistent enough to bring Ukraine into NATO — if we had actually meant what we said — then this utter catastrophe would have been averted.
    I know that, in some European capitals, this outcome will seem hard to digest. But the logic is inescapable.
    For the sake of stability and peace, Ukraine now needs clarity about its position in the Euro-Atlantic security architecture. All our dodging and weaving has ended in slaughter.
    Ukrainians should be given everything they need to finish this war, as quickly as possible, and we should begin the process of admitting Ukraine to NATO, and begin it now.
    It would be no use if Moscow complains. They had a case once, and they were heard with respect. That case has been pulverized by the bombs and missiles of Putin.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  35. #9205
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cantão - Brazil
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    17,447

    Default Re: Ukraine

    Boris Johnson's credibility can be deduced from the fact that no one bothered to post his claim about Putin threatening him with a missile until Vadim brought it up.

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