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Thread: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

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    Default A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Originally from The Washington Post:


    A 12-year-old wrote his governor to oppose a gun law. A stray bullet killed him on Christmas.

    Before winter break, 12-year-old Artemis Rayford wrote a letter to tell Tennessee Gov. Bill Lee that he opposed a new law reducing restrictions on guns. Before the end of that break, the sixth-grader would be shot and killed by one.

    In his letter, Artemis told Lee (R) that his school’s anti-violence initiative with the Memphis Police Department had been discussing a law that went into effect in July, allowing people 21 and older, and military service members 18 and up, to carry a weapon without any training or permit.

    He introduced himself as a student at Sherwood Middle School before writing his thoughts about the legislation.

    “It is my opinion that this new law will be bad and people will be murdered,” Artemis’s letter said.

    Shelby County Schools did not respond to a request for comment Saturday, and it was not clear whether the letter had been sent to Lee. The governor’s office didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment Saturday afternoon.

    Artemis wouldn’t be around to find out what Lee thought of his letter.

    Early Christmas morning, he was shot and killed by a stray bullet that came from outside the Memphis home he shared with his mother and 6-year-old sister.

    When Artemis’s teachers found out about his death, one of them sent his mother a photo of the letter that was addressed to Lee.

    His grandmother Joyce Newson, 65, read the letter and was pinched by the irony.

    Newson said she hoped the governor would see the letter on local news. She said she wants Artemis’s letter to bring more attention to gun laws, but she doubts that it will.

    “The governor hasn’t reached out,” she said. “That’s why it’s only going to be thrown up under the rug.”

    Memphis had a record 346 homicides in 2021, with 31 children counted among the deceased, WREG reported. About 150 children were treated for gunshot wounds that year, according to local news outlets.

    Sgt. Louis C. Brownlee, a spokesperson for the Memphis Police Department, told The Washington Post that investigators are looking into “this senseless act of violence” and that the department is asking people in the area to submit tips about what they saw that holiday night.

    Newson told The Post that her large family gathered on Christmas Eve at her oldest daughter’s home, wearing pajamas.

    “It didn’t dawn on me that it would be my last time seeing him,” she said of the boy family members called “Shun.”

    She awoke to a call at 2:38 a.m. on Dec. 25 to learn that he had died of a gunshot wound.

    “How did this child [who wrote] this letter about guns end up losing his life over a gun?” she said. “What kind of coincidence is that? That’s powerful to me.”

    Newson said her daughter hasn’t returned to the home where Artemis died in her arms. His blood still stains the mattress where he was sitting, playing a new video game he received for Christmas, when a bullet entered his chest and ushered in weeks of grief for his family.

    His younger sister, who saw her brother take his final breath, is also “having a hard time” as she struggles to live without Artemis, Newson said.

    The grandmother is trying to be the family’s support system as she contemplates a future devoid of trips to Artemis’s football practices, of seeing him perform the latest dances at family gatherings, of telling him how much she hates the smell of the Ramen noodles he loved.

    Artemis was laid to rest Jan. 8, wearing a blazer with Tennessee Titans insignia and a bow tie bearing the team’s name, Newson said.

    She’ll remember him as the grandson who was always active and full of energy, like the last time she saw him on Christmas Eve.

    “The last thing I said to Shun was, ‘Shun, stop running in this girl’s house,’ ” she said with a giggle.
    A 12-year-old wrote his governor to oppose a gun law. A stray bullet killed him on Christmas. (msn.com)
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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Well it's acceptable to enough of your legislators for it to continue. So it will.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    What legislation would you like to see? I have absolutely no idea what could be done to improve things. There are already close to 400 million guns in the US, we’ll just have to live in fear of being a victim.
    “Don’t worry about the horse being blind, just load the wagon!”

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    If youn really think that it is wrong, then do something about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    Maybe it's time those of us who are like-minded with the last three posts put together a national anti-gun group on a scale to match the NRA and do fund-raising and lobby the fruck out of Congress to make some kind of progress to restrict all aspects of guns in America—ban the manufacture and sales and ownership. Make it too difficult to casually own a gun even for the safest most responsible tradition respecting. Put people who commit a crime involving a gun in prison for life.
    Get organized, start a campaign. It worked before on alcohol, it can be made to work again.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    What legislation would you like to see? I have absolutely no idea what could be done to improve things. There are already close to 400 million guns in the US, we’ll just have to live in fear of being a victim.
    Good question.

    Two things I'd like. One is a fund for gunshot victims to pay for medical bills or funerals. This fund would come from a tax on guns and ammo.

    Second, I'd like to see a serious, perhaps mandatory, buy back program so when the gun owner dies, a lot of guns get out of the public's hands. Wouldn't be all of them, but I'd like to believe many people would rather a reasonable chunk of cash than the guns. Government would have to pay a premium price; better than the guns would bring on the street.

    Guns are immortal. Their owners are not.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    If youn really think that it is wrong, then do something about it.


    Get organized, start a campaign. It worked before on alcohol, it can be made to work again.
    It didn't work on alcohol. That's why it was repealed. People drank during prohibition, but there was no quality control over the booze, and the 'bad guys' got rich. Illegal booze worked as well as illegal drugs.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    But Guns don't kill people my head explodes every time I here that.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Time to eliminate drivers licenses. Why not?

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    It didn't work on alcohol. That's why it was repealed. People drank during prohibition, but there was no quality control over the booze, and the 'bad guys' got rich. Illegal booze worked as well as illegal drugs.
    The law was passed. That it was undeliverable is a separate issue. Learn from that lesson and ensure that the legislation is achievable.
    Now do you want to stop the killing, or are you Andy and Randy pig, "This job's too hard"?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Another thought. We REQUIRE gun insurance. If there's an incident where one shoots someone and the gun is NOT insured; automatic 6 months in jail.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    friendly fire.... the slug may have been meant for an Antifa lootenant or something

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    friendly fire.... the slug may have been meant for an Antifa lootenant or something
    I'm not sure that makes a difference. There should be some insurance to pay for medical/funeral expenses of victims of gun shots.

    Buy insurance in general at purchase of guns/ammo, or require separate insurance to be purchased, as we do car insurance. If your gun injures/kills someone, and you do NOT have it insured; 6 months in jail.

    I've at least offered suggestions. Getting all the guns out of the people's hands is hardly possible. Mandating insurance might be.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I'm not sure that makes a difference. There should be some insurance to pay for medical/funeral expenses of victims of gun shots.

    Buy insurance in general at purchase of guns/ammo, or require separate insurance to be purchased, as we do car insurance. If your gun injures/kills someone, and you do NOT have it insured; 6 months in jail.

    I've at least offered suggestions. Getting all the guns out of the people's hands is hardly possible. Mandating insurance might be.
    Ammunition tax may be more effective than insurance, since insurance can lapse while guns and ammunition can sit for a hundred years just fine.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Scotland has a population of about 5,500,000 (Google).

    In 2021 Scotland suffered 55 murders by all methods (Google again).

    In other words, in Scotland, you've got a 1:100,000 chance of being murdered in any year.

    Over your lifetime (say 80 years), that's a 1 in 1,250 chance of being murdered.

    Memphis has a population of 633,104 (Original post).

    In 2021, Memphis suffered 346 homicides (OP).

    In other words, in Memphis, you've got a 1:1,830 chance of being murdered in any year.

    Over your lifetime (say 80 years), that's a 1 in 29 chance of being murdered.

    What's wrong with you guys?

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by CollinR View Post
    Scotland has a population of about 5,500,000 (Google).

    Over your lifetime (say 80 years), that's a 1 in 1,250 chance of being murdered.

    Memphis has a population of 633,104 (Original post).

    Over your lifetime (say 80 years), that's a 1 in 29 chance of being murdered.
    I have to tell you that even the Scotland numbers seem appalling to me. As for Memphis, who doesn't know 29 people? How many people will you know who are murdered? Appalling.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    I read the OP and see CollinR has made the point I was going to...

    The entire UK homicide rate was 600 in 2021.

    That's in a population of 67.2 million people. If the US had the same rate, you'd have 2963 homicides.

    And not the 20700+ you currently 'enjoy'.

    Andy
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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    I think all agree too many people are killed by guns in the USA.

    Question is: How to stop it?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I think all agree too many people are killed by guns in the USA.

    Question is: How to stop it?
    Easy. Get rid of the guns.

    Andy
    "In case of fire ring Fellside 75..."

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    Easy. Get rid of the guns.

    Andy
    Not. Possible.
    So, not so easy.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    Easy. Get rid of the guns.

    Andy
    Baby steps.
    Licence them, and require that they are all kept in secure storage at home or when in transit between the hunting field or target range and home.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I think all agree too many people are killed by guns in the USA.

    Question is: How to stop it?
    Use the law to impose responsible ownership with very serious penalties for those who do not. We had a law, maybe we still do, that says, "Use a gun and go to jail." We need to change that to "Use a gun and we will move heaven and earth to find you." Get rid of open carry and require serious gun instruction to get a license to carry a gun. Then the big one is get rid of handguns and have a required minimum barrel length with aggressive sentencing for those who saw it off. Then smart guns that can't be fired by anyone but the owner.

    We can get the first, but they get progressively unlikely as the list goes on.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    No it wouldn't be easy but byou have to start. And the best way to start is to look how the attitudes to smokers and smoking was changed. Use that program and those techniques to slowly change public attitudes. Use the killing of children as a lever, make their deaths have some meaning. You have to bring the public with you to the point that being a gun advocate will not get you elected.
    The paid politicians and the gun lobbyists will fight like mad, but it's the only way.

    Some states will not follow of course, but the 'United' part is a bit of a joke now anyway.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Zero guns = zero gun deaths. Do the damn math.
    Gerard>
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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    Easy. Get rid of the guns.

    Andy
    How do you get rid of the guns?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    No it wouldn't be easy but byou have to start. And the best way to start is to look how the attitudes to smokers and smoking was changed. Use that program and those techniques to slowly change public attitudes. Use the killing of children as a lever, make their deaths have some meaning. You have to bring the public with you to the point that being a gun advocate will not get you elected.
    The paid politicians and the gun lobbyists will fight like mad, but it's the only way.

    Some states will not follow of course, but the 'United' part is a bit of a joke now anyway.
    This is nothing like smoking. A pack of cigarettes only last so long. A gun lasts forever.

    There is no way that I can see to round up guns. I do think a law could be passed requiring owners to insure themselves/their guns, and face jail time if their gun shoots someone and they have not got insurance.

    You could buy guns from heirs when the gun owner dies, if the heirs wish to sell.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    Zero guns = zero gun deaths. Do the damn math.
    Simple math, yes. How do you get to zero guns from where we are?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    This is nothing like smoking. A pack of cigarettes only last so long. A gun lasts forever.

    There is no way that I can see to round up guns. I do think a law could be passed requiring owners to insure themselves/their guns, and face jail time if their gun shoots someone and they have not got insurance.

    You could buy guns from heirs when the gun owner dies, if the heirs wish to sell.
    It's not the guns them selves that are the problem, it's the attitude to them and the toll their owners take with them that has to change. Treat it as another health problem, a disease that kills and maims thousands every year the gun is the instrument, a person the agent. When children start telling dad that they are not comfortable with his gun in the house and they are worried that someone might get killed or that he'd go to jail is when it changes. Educate the kids, they are not stupid, they are likely terrified already with gun drills at school etc.
    And I did not say it would be easy. I reckon it's a 50-100 year project.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Heres the elephant in the room.

    In Canada, and although I don’t have the stats for the US, I’m going to suggest the numbers are similar:
    -6 out of 10 gun homicides are in cities
    -2/3 of gun homicides are by handgun
    -the majority of gun homicides are committed by strangers

    Now what does that mean? In Canada it means gang members illegally carrying and using handguns to kill each other, and a few people that get in the way (the Surrey six being an example). Now how does legislation change their lives? Does anyone really think the shot fired in the OP was “Walmart AR guy”? How about the shot that hit G Floyds niece? From an open carry NRA guy? I doubt it. So how do you get guns out of their hands.
    There’s been a rash of gangland shootings in the Vancouver area as gangs fight for territory. There have been bystanders shot. Toronto, Winnipeg, in fact most cities have the same problem. How is legislation going to help stop that?
    Your problem as a society, and ours to a lesser degree, is much larger than guns. It’s about why so many urban youth feel the need and desire to carry and use them. Legislate better education. Legislate universal health care. Legislate drug treatment rather than incarceration. I bet that does more.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    I think that an approach that would lead to appreciable harm reduction would be to start upstream, like controlling erosion. Gun deaths have a variety of ultimate causes and preoccupation with the proximal cause, the gun, tends to obscure them. For example, about half of what the FBI labels as "mass shootings" are the end stage of cases of domestic violence. Stopping the violence earlier would probably be easier, less dangerous, and would reduce all of the sublethal precursor violence, physical and emotional leading up to the fatal events.
    Gang shootings, on the other hand seem to be over economic spheres, i.e. drug turf, racism, and perceived slights and insults. Offering alternatives to gang life and teaching tolerance, conflict resolution, again would divert the potential perpetrators from the trajectories that lead them into shooting situations.
    The bulk of firearm related deaths in the US are suicides, another area where addressing the root cause could not only reduce the firearm related deaths, but alleviate the human pain and suffering that precedes the final, fatal act.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    Heres the elephant in the room.

    In Canada, and although I don’t have the stats for the US, I’m going to suggest the numbers are similar:
    -6 out of 10 gun homicides are in cities
    -2/3 of gun homicides are by handgun
    -the majority of gun homicides are committed by strangers

    Now what does that mean? In Canada it means gang members illegally carrying and using handguns to kill each other, and a few people that get in the way (the Surrey six being an example). Now how does legislation change their lives? Does anyone really think the shot fired in the OP was “Walmart AR guy”? How about the shot that hit G Floyds niece? From an open carry NRA guy? I doubt it. So how do you get guns out of their hands.
    There’s been a rash of gangland shootings in the Vancouver area as gangs fight for territory. There have been bystanders shot. Toronto, Winnipeg, in fact most cities have the same problem. How is legislation going to help stop that?
    Here are some Canadian stats to compare with the data that you found for the US

    Rank Cause of death Number of deaths
    1 Cancer 42,848
    2 Heart disease 28,292
    3 Accidents 7,829
    4 Chronic lower respiratory diseases 6,342
    5 Cerebrovascular diseases 5,958
    6 Diabetes 3,882
    7 Flu and pneumonia 3,265
    8 Suicide 3,058
    9 Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis 2,365
    10 Alzheimer’s disease 1,989

    https://www.finder.com/ca/what-are-the-top-10-causes-of-death-in-canada

    Guns don't get a mention, so unless you are suggesting that the US of A is a massively criminal society with half the population in a criminal gang, the data does not support your argument.

    There are numerous reports, discussed on here, of children finding an insecure gun in the home or car, and killing someone., random shooting's by some dick heads showing off, people pulling a gun at a traffic stop or road rage incident, the list goes on, but none of them are gang turf wars.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Use the law to impose responsible ownership with very serious penalties for those who do not. We had a law, maybe we still do, that says, "Use a gun and go to jail." We need to change that to "Use a gun and we will move heaven and earth to find you." Get rid of open carry and require serious gun instruction to get a license to carry a gun. Then the big one is get rid of handguns and have a required minimum barrel length with aggressive sentencing for those who saw it off. Then smart guns that can't be fired by anyone but the owner.

    We can get the first, but they get progressively unlikely as the list goes on.
    Once there is a law requiring a licence, require presentation of a current licence to the dealer when purchasing ammunition.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    It's not the guns them selves that are the problem, it's the attitude to them and the toll their owners take with them that has to change. Treat it as another health problem, a disease that kills and maims thousands every year the gun is the instrument, a person the agent. When children start telling dad that they are not comfortable with his gun in the house and they are worried that someone might get killed or that he'd go to jail is when it changes. Educate the kids, they are not stupid, they are likely terrified already with gun drills at school etc.
    And I did not say it would be easy. I reckon it's a 50-100 year project.
    Would you be opposed to a law requiring gun owners carry insurance? If there gun kills/wounds someone and they are not insured they do jail time on top of whatever civil suit or criminal charges come?

    Would you be opposed to a tax on ammunition to create a fund for gunshot victims?

    Would you support buying guns from the heirs when the gun owner dies, at a decent price?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    I think that an approach that would lead to appreciable harm reduction would be to start upstream, like controlling erosion. Gun deaths have a variety of ultimate causes and preoccupation with the proximal cause, the gun, tends to obscure them. For example, about half of what the FBI labels as "mass shootings" are the end stage of cases of domestic violence. Stopping the violence earlier would probably be easier, less dangerous, and would reduce all of the sublethal precursor violence, physical and emotional leading up to the fatal events.
    Gang shootings, on the other hand seem to be over economic spheres, i.e. drug turf, racism, and perceived slights and insults. Offering alternatives to gang life and teaching tolerance, conflict resolution, again would divert the potential perpetrators from the trajectories that lead them into shooting situations.
    The bulk of firearm related deaths in the US are suicides, another area where addressing the root cause could not only reduce the firearm related deaths, but alleviate the human pain and suffering that precedes the final, fatal act.
    Suicide's an interesting question. Why does one not have the right to end one's own life. If someone decided he's had enough of life, who am I to argue?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: A gun story: break your heart or make you mad or both

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Once there is a law requiring a licence, require presentation of a current licence to the dealer when purchasing ammunition.
    I like the idea of needing a license to buy bullets.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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