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Thread: Closer to war

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Or pushed out for favoring appeasement?

    Tom
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  2. #72
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    The response by 'the rest of the world that gives a ****' can not openly be the aggressor here, it is against the law, and would lose the argument. Only the MIC gains, as usual from this crap. Sevastopol is a major military base for Russia and all it seeks is a buffer between it and 'the rest of the world that gives a ****' .

    Borders that were drawn on a map at the collapse of the USSR were often clumsily and hastily decided upon, and there is certainly a proportion of Ukraina that feels closer to the mother than others, so political tensions exist, just like any other country. If any territory is changed nationally it should not with mortars and shell fire, it should be from a referendum. Fat chance of that however.

    In most native Eastern block countries I have visited and even the Mediterranean countries like Greece, Albania, Turkey, the Black sea countries, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, Georgia etc, it is perfectly normal to sleep with a serviceable rifle and plenty of shells under the bed. A lot happened in those areas just in the last century, but the history of sweeping border changes as Empires from one direction or another maraud across the great spans of Eastern Europe has been going on thousands of years, just to put some perspective to this.

    Putin's an expert at game theory, it's how he works. It's good for his home political ratings if he stops NATO from being a stones throw from his Black sea fleet.
    Soon the 'the rest of the world that gives a ****' can also go back to normal claiming they stopped a dangerous aggressor from invading a friendly pseudo democratic 'country that wants to be on our side'...happy days, you can all go back to buying stuff.

    oh, and..

    Nordstream2 anyone?

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    The response by 'the rest of the world that gives a ****' can not openly be the aggressor here, it is against the law, and would lose the argument. Only the MIC gains, as usual from this crap. Sevastopol is a major military base for Russia and all it seeks is a buffer between it and [I]'the rest of the world that gives a ****' .
    Something along those lines might work as part of a very careful balance of power. Russian Sevastopol guarantees Russian access to the Black Sea. NATO guarantees Ukraine.

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Borders that were drawn on a map at the collapse of the USSR were often clumsily and hastily decided upon, and there is certainly a proportion of Ukraina that feels closer to the mother than others, so political tensions exist, just like any other country. If any territory is changed nationally it should not with mortars and shell fire, it should be from a referendum. Fat chance of that however.
    It was settled by referendum, in Ukraine. It's Russia that now threatens with mortars etc.

    Those who feel "closer to the mother", if they voted no, which is by no means certain, were in any case outvoted and that's that. Ukraine is independent and sovereign.

    Significant proportions of Ukraine have always opposed Russian ambitions there. Russia was never their "mother". Russia was an invader, as now.

    See Nicholas Carey, #48.
    Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man.

    - - Abu Bakr, first Sunni Muslim caliph, early 7th century

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Some mother.

    The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомо́р, romanized: Holodomor, IPA: [ɦolodoˈmɔr]; derived from морити голодом, moryty holodom, 'to kill by starvation'),also known as the Terror-Famine or the Great Famine, was a famine in Soviet Ukraine from 1932 to 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians. It was a large part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–1933. The term Holodomor emphasises the famine's man-made and allegedly intentional aspects such as rejection of outside aid, confiscation of all household foodstuffs and restriction of population movement. As part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–1933 which affected the major grain-producing areas of the country, millions of inhabitants of Ukraine, the majority of whom were ethnic Ukrainians, died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine. Since 2006, the Holodomor has been recognized by Ukraine and 15 other countries as a genocide of the Ukrainian people carried out by the Soviet government.

    -- wikipedia
    Ukraine has every reason to believe that Russia still considers Ukraine to be nothing more an item of inventory to be applied to Russian purposes. And so the vote was yes to independence, which means no to Russia. Settled. Over.
    Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man.

    - - Abu Bakr, first Sunni Muslim caliph, early 7th century

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    It would, of course, been far, far better to offer (the post-USSR) Russia full NATO membership in late December, 1991.

    But, hey.

    Andy. What do I know?
    "In case of fire ring Fellside 75..."

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    It would, of course, been far, far better to offer (the post-USSR) Russia full NATO membership in late December, 1991.

    But, hey.

    Andy. What do I know?
    Russia had a chance to join the community of nations and prosper in that way. They chose not to.

  7. #77
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    Default Closer to war

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Russia had a chance to join the community of nations and prosper in that way. They chose not to.

    Truth.

    We (the West) might have worked harder at bringing them into the fold, as it were.

    Part of the problem, a friend of mine has pointed out, is that Russia never really had a Renaissance -- it is essentially still a medieval culture, where the common folk defer to the strong man who protects themselves and supposedly ensures that they don't starve..
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    The response by 'the rest of the world that gives a ****' can not openly be the aggressor here, it is against the law, and would lose the argument. Only the MIC gains, as usual from this crap. Sevastopol is a major military base for Russia and all it seeks is a buffer between it and 'the rest of the world that gives a ****' .

    Borders that were drawn on a map at the collapse of the USSR were often clumsily and hastily decided upon, and there is certainly a proportion of Ukraina that feels closer to the mother than others, so political tensions exist, just like any other country. If any territory is changed nationally it should not with mortars and shell fire, it should be from a referendum. Fat chance of that however.

    In most native Eastern block countries I have visited and even the Mediterranean countries like Greece, Albania, Turkey, the Black sea countries, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, Georgia etc, it is perfectly normal to sleep with a serviceable rifle and plenty of shells under the bed. A lot happened in those areas just in the last century, but the history of sweeping border changes as Empires from one direction or another maraud across the great spans of Eastern Europe has been going on thousands of years, just to put some perspective to this.

    Putin's an expert at game theory, it's how he works. It's good for his home political ratings if he stops NATO from being a stones throw from his Black sea fleet.
    Soon the 'the rest of the world that gives a ****' can also go back to normal claiming they stopped a dangerous aggressor from invading a friendly pseudo democratic 'country that wants to be on our side'...happy days, you can all go back to buying stuff.

    oh, and..

    Nordstream2 anyone?
    Why would Russia need a buffer state? Are you under the impression that some European power is likely to invade? True, most of Ukraine was once part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, but I don't see anyone starting that up again.

    The reason so many countries that were invaded by Russia during WW II are eager to join Nato is that they fear being invaded by Russia again. Putin clearly wants to rebuild the Soviet empire. Russia's neighbors do not wish to be part of this project.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Scotland

    Scotland, year 2069 ... Scotland enters into a military alliance with China

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma

    Keywords: Scotland, Karma and "perfidious Albion"...

    :-)

    ---

    Good humor is the only way to put up with you. You look like reasonable people; but scratch the surface a millimeter and your true face appears: ignorant and arrogant racists, colonialists, imperialists, drunk with cheap propaganda, you eat lies for breakfast, fantasies for lunch and silences for dinner. This is the West, the most colossal Fantasy ever created. Bunch of narcissistic children and cynical old men. This is the West.
    Last edited by Juan; 01-24-2022 at 04:52 AM.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Russia had a chance to join the community of nations and prosper in that way. They chose not to.
    The West had a chance to rebuild and integrate Russia in the 1990s and early 2000s. Instead they chose to promote crony capitalism and a "new world order".

    Silvana worked with Russia in the 90s. What the West did there was bound to cause a reaction.

    That said, Russia is medieval, yes. No Renaissance and no Enlightenment.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    In many ways, the same can be said of India. I recall an interview with PM Nehru in the aftermath of 1947 when he referred to the USSR as a "backward country" that was able to break ground by pursuing the development of the heavy-goods industry.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    I think it’s a bit harsh to say that Russia avoided the Enlightenment.

    I think both Peter the Great and Catherine the Great were enthusiasts for spreading the Enlightenment in Russia.

    Which is why we call them both “Enlightened Despots”.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Quote Originally Posted by Juan View Post
    ...

    Good humor is the only way to put up with you. You look like reasonable people; but scratch the surface a millimeter and your true face appears: ignorant and arrogant racists, colonialists, imperialists, drunk with cheap propaganda, you eat lies for breakfast, fantasies for lunch and silences for dinner. This is the West, the most colossal Fantasy ever created. Bunch of narcissistic children and cynical old men. This is the West.
    If that's so - you might try some good humor rather than your normal holier than thou preaching.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    This is how the US will now begin a thirty year presence facing off Russia in Ukraine, with tensions about bombing and nukes for every minute of it. You thought Iraq and Afganistan were bad. My comments in brackets in the following quote.

    The Biden administration is considering sending as many as 5,000 U.S. troops to Eastern Europe, a U.S. official confirmed to NPR, in what would be a step-up in American military involvement in the region amid growing fears of a Russian invasion of Ukraine.

    U.S. troops could be headed to Romania and Poland, or possibly Bulgaria or Hungary. No final decision has been made but the troops have been told to be ready to move, the official said.

    U.S. service members could be drawn from their existing posts elsewhere in NATO countries in Europe. Some of the troops would also likely come from the 82nd Airborne Division at Fort Bragg, N.C.

    The New York Times, which first reported the news of planned troop movements, said senior Pentagon officials laid out a number of options for President Biden on Saturday.
    Among them, sending 1,000 to 5,000 troops to Eastern European countries and the Baltics, "with the potential to increase that number tenfold if things deteriorate," according to the Times. ["... if things deteriorate. Gee, ya think?]

    There are no plans to send more Americans into Ukraine itself, according to the paper. [Yeah, right. Pull the other one.]

    The Biden administration has held back on more aggressive actions, for fear of inciting a Russian invasion. [While trying to look like he's willing to bomb them into next Tuesday without saying so.]

    So far, U.S. aid to Ukraine has largely come in the form of military equipment. A Biden administration shipment of aid — close to 200,000 pounds of "lethal aid" including ammunition — arrived in Ukraine on Sunday. In October, the U.S. sent Ukraine 30 Javelin anti-tank guided missile systems. [An alternative economy boost since BBB didn't sell so well.]

    There are already more than 150 U.S. military advisers [ sales people for the MIC, and CIA spy-instigators, like they need that.] in Ukraine, the Times reported, though they are far from any potential front lines and would likely leave the country quickly after a Russian invasion.

    Last week, Biden said he had warned Russian President Vladimir Putin that his country's invasion of Ukraine would cause Washington to send more troops to the region.
    "We're going to actually increase troop presence in Poland, in Romania, et cetera, if in fact he moves," Biden said in a news conference, pointing out that the two countries are NATO members.

    Ukraine is not a NATO member, and Russia has demanded that it never become one.

    Russia has stationed more than 100,000 troops near the Ukraine border, raising fears of an imminent assault on the country. Russia has rejected that it has such plans in store.
    While Ukraine boasts mighty military power, Russia's bigger, more modern army would likely give it the upper hand should the country invade.

    The State Department earlier Sunday ordered the departure of diplomats' families from Ukraine, in a move that officials assured did not signify waning support for the country.

    Tom Bowman contributed reporting.


    http://npr.org/2022/01/23/1075240355...-russia-crisis
    Speak softly and carry a mouthful of marbles.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    This is how the US will now begin a thirty year presence facing off Russia in Ukraine, with tensions about bombing and nukes for every minute of it.
    "Will now begin?" It has been going on uninterrupted since 1945. The front line has been moving east since 1999.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Politics Girl again:




    https://youtu.be/w-m5Bc_wr3M

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    Politics Girl again:




    https://youtu.be/w-m5Bc_wr3M
    she’s a bit ahistorical attributing bad intent for Russia for actions we have already done to other countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    "Will now begin?" It has been going on uninterrupted since 1945. The front line has been moving east since 1999.
    Russia has been pushing the western, southern, and eastern front lines outward from day one. They encounter resistance and suffer setbacks. The effort continues uninterrupted, from "East Germany" to Afghanistan to Ukraine. Around the Black Sea, into Turkey and Iran. Islands in the Pacific.

    Since the end of the First Sino-Japanese War in 1895, Japan feared Russian encroachment on its plans to create a sphere of influence in Korea and Manchuria. Russia had demonstrated an expansionist policy east of the Urals in Siberia and the Far East from the reign of Ivan the Terrible in the 16th century.

    Seeing Russia as a rival, Japan offered to recognize Russian dominance in Manchuria in exchange for recognition of Korea being within the Japanese sphere of influence. Russia refused and demanded the establishment of a neutral buffer zone between Russia and Japan in Korea north of the 39th parallel.

    -- wikipedia, "Russo-Japanese War
    Demanded a neutral buffer zone, hm. Poor Russia, threatened on all fronts.
    Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man.

    - - Abu Bakr, first Sunni Muslim caliph, early 7th century

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    Given the weakness of the states bordering the Black Sea, Russia sees opportunity to expand not just its influence but its territory. The west decides it cannot allow that to happen. A huge despotic empire on its border.

    Wait, that was the first Crimean War. Russia used its naval base at Sebastopol to attack Turkey.

    The USSR was even more imperialist than Imperial Russia. Even after the first Crimean war, Russia did everything it could, including another war, to weaken Turkey, with a view to resuming the march of Russian imperialism, via Sebastopol.

    That's why Turkey joined NATO. That's why NATO considers Turkey strategic. Because Russian imperialism, by any other name, considers Turkey strategic.

    Currently Putin Russia seeks to outflank Turkey by its presence in Syria.

    And then there's the nation formerly known as Persia, likewise under constant threat from Russian imperialism, at times producing actual war, producing massive taking of new territory by . . . guess who.

    Irrendentism cannot explain, let alone justify, Russian imperialism. Irredentisim is propaganda to stir the rabble so that they may be enlisted in the service of imperialism.
    Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man.

    - - Abu Bakr, first Sunni Muslim caliph, early 7th century

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    This is tough. Having spend a couple of weeks helping care for my dad, I had quite a bit of time to look into this. I do not expect Putin to go through with an invasion, I think he will "back off" in some way to save face. The military cost of any invasion has increased significantly. Weaponry, specifically aimed to bloody his nose pretty bad, has been delivered to the Ukraine in boat loads, from other Eastern European powers, particularly Poland, Czech Republic, the UK, and the US. Now, none of this would give Ukraine enough military power to stop the Russian army, but the casualty rate could be much higher than Putin may have thought a month or two ago. In addition, he will see that this hardens the opposition to him in all of the neighboring states where he wants closer relations, note Latvia and Lithuania are sending arms to the Ukraine. I think he was hoping that the gas agreement with Hungary would push the Visegrad group of nations to be a little more indifferent, similar to Germany. It seems this has only happened with Hungary itself, it did not spread to Hungary's neighbors.
    All-in-all, I think Putin will figure out that he would win, but at quite a high price and it might be better to take a different approach. But the build of of Russian forces on the Ukraine border will be there to stay.

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    https://www.russiamatters.org/analys...opean-security

    The challenge is to square the circle of the West’s insistence on NATO’s open door to former Soviet states and Russia’s demand for a sphere of influence that includes them. The positions appear irreconcilable, but as a colleague and I have proposed, a moratorium on further NATO expansion into the former Soviet space for a period of 20-25 years could bridge the gap. It would formalize what any Western official would say in private—and some have said publicly—that no former Soviet state, including Ukraine, will be ready for membership for years to come.
    .
    .
    Critics of compromise will inevitably shout appeasement. But this is hardly the case. In taking the steps outlined above, the West would not be eroding its principles or abandoning Ukraine. The proposed compromises are grounded in the assumption that Russia-West relations will remain adversarial for an extended period, that neither side is about to capitulate and neither has the wherewithal to compel the other’s surrender and, thus, that the competition over Ukraine’s future will continue. The compromises are intended to ensure that that contest is pursued in a framework that minimizes the risk of a catastrophic military conflict and focuses the two sides on accumulating incremental advantages over time. That kind of responsible rivalry is most assuredly in the West’s interest—and Russia’s.


    AUTHOR
    Thomas Graham
    Thomas Graham, a distinguished fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, served as the senior director for Russia on the National Security Council staff during the George W. Bush administration.

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    This is tough. Having spend a couple of weeks helping care for my dad, I had quite a bit of time to look into this. I do not expect Putin to go through with an invasion, I think he will "back off" in some way to save face. The military cost of any invasion has increased significantly. Weaponry, specifically aimed to bloody his nose pretty bad, has been delivered to the Ukraine in boat loads, from other Eastern European powers, particularly Poland, Czech Republic, the UK, and the US. Now, none of this would give Ukraine enough military power to stop the Russian army, but the casualty rate could be much higher than Putin may have thought a month or two ago. In addition, he will see that this hardens the opposition to him in all of the neighboring states where he wants closer relations, note Latvia and Lithuania are sending arms to the Ukraine. I think he was hoping that the gas agreement with Hungary would push the Visegrad group of nations to be a little more indifferent, similar to Germany. It seems this has only happened with Hungary itself, it did not spread to Hungary's neighbors.
    All-in-all, I think Putin will figure out that he would win, but at quite a high price and it might be better to take a different approach. But the build of of Russian forces on the Ukraine border will be there to stay.
    Wishing you well on family matters. Yes, Russian forces are on Russian borders.

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    The West had a chance to rebuild and integrate Russia in the 1990s and early 2000s. Instead they chose to promote crony capitalism and a "new world order".

    Silvana worked with Russia in the 90s. What the West did there was bound to cause a reaction.

    That said, Russia is medieval, yes. No Renaissance and no Enlightenment.
    Crony capitalism was the Russians' own choice. Perhaps after years of portraying capitalists this way, they thought 'I know how to do capitalism! You become a crook who exploits people,' but more likely, it was a simple matter of those who held political power using it to gain economic power.

    Remember, the Soviet Union fell because it was in economic collapse. That collapse was delayed by western economic aid, needed because the Soviet Union could not feed its people. Perhaps more aid would have prevented the economic crisis of 1998, but in the end, all the efforts to help Russia ended up only giving them a chance to blame their problems on the west.

    Personally, I think the problem with economic advice from the west was that our economists had too much faith in markets. Capitalism isn't freedom from regulation, it is a system of regulation, and without the rule of law, it degenerates into banditry or kleptocracy.

    Why were the same economists more successful in advising Poland? Maybe the Russian reforms moved too quickly, but maybe Russia isn't Poland. In any case, the west tried to rebuild and integrate Russia in the 1990s and early 2000s. The thing is, the west could not rebuild Russia, the Russians had to do that. You attribute far too much power to the west.

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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Australians, and all but essential embassy personnel have been advised to leave Ukraine immediately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Crony capitalism was the Russians' own choice.
    After the end of the Soviet Union Russians had no idea how to build capitalism. You have no idea what sort of carpetbaggers descended from the West to teach them. They got the opposite of a Marshall plan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    After the end of the Soviet Union Russians had no idea how to build capitalism. You have no idea what sort of carpetbaggers descended from the West to teach them. They got the opposite of a Marshall plan.
    They didn't want capitalism. The kleptocracy was already in place, created, maintained, and controlled by the police state. It was liberated by the collapse of the Soviet Union. The KGB and the network it created was tired of phony "Soviet" politicians getting in their way. Like a hermit crab outgrowing and leaving its old shell. New shell, same crab.

    No one in the rest of the world, last of all the west, has anything to teach Russians in this regard. If "carpetbaggers" got anything, the kleptos got their cut, count on it; and went on, building their patronage.

    Organized crime in Russia began in the Russian Empires, but it was not until the Soviet era that vory v zakone ("thieves-in-law") emerged as leaders of prison groups in forced labor camps, and their honor code became more defined. With the end of World War II, the death of Joseph Stalin, and the fall of the Soviet Union, more gangs emerged in a flourishing black market, exploiting the unstable governments of the former Republics . . .

    . . . The Russian mafia however differed from the Italians due to their environment. The level of political corruption and arms sales in a post-Soviet Russia allowed for massive expansion and incorporation of many government officials into the crime syndicates. The Russians also dabbled in uranium trading stolen from the Soviet nuclear program and human trafficking.

    -- wikipedia, "Russian Mafia"
    Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man.

    - - Abu Bakr, first Sunni Muslim caliph, early 7th century

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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Sounds like . . . containment. Worked before.
    Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man.

    - - Abu Bakr, first Sunni Muslim caliph, early 7th century

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Sounds like . . . containment. Worked before.
    Like garlic works for vampires. I eat garlic and have never been attacked by a vampire. The rarionalizations for world hegemony are easy. Because we can, spreading democracy!

    I don’t see how the article is advocating containment.

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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Ask Vlad (Putin) if containment worked.

    The American dream of America as a hegemon boldly ventured from its coffin into the sunlight, relying on its neo-conservative cape, and was burned to ashes.
    Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man.

    - - Abu Bakr, first Sunni Muslim caliph, early 7th century

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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Ya know a lot of countries didn’t invade each other and it wasn’t because of US, well we did help a few invasions here and there.

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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Wishing you well on family matters. Yes, Russian forces are on Russian borders.
    And on Belarus/Ukraine borders

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    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    And on Belarus/Ukraine borders
    You mean Russian soldiers are in Russia?

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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Ya know a lot of countries didn’t invade each other and it wasn’t because of US, well we did help a few invasions here and there.
    Yes, but this is Russia. Russia hasn't invaded Turkey, or Romania, or Bulgaria -- like they did in the first Crimean War -- because of NATO. Hasn't invaded them yet, anyway. Nor the Baltic States . . . any of the new NATO states. We aim to keep it that way.

    We, the international community.
    Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man.

    - - Abu Bakr, first Sunni Muslim caliph, early 7th century

  34. #104
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Closer to war

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Yes, Russian forces are on Russian borders.
    Russian forces are across Russian borders in someone else's country in violation of their people's rights and international law.
    Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man.

    - - Abu Bakr, first Sunni Muslim caliph, early 7th century

  35. #105
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
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    Texas
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    14,258

    Default Re: Closer to war

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    You mean Russian soldiers are in Russia?
    You have a point.

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