Homosexuality

[Meerkat]

Ish you can pull your own, but you ain't pulling mine Bubba

Ok, setting aside religious beliefs and outlier behaviors that aren't really homosxuality (like rape and child molestation), what exactly is the fuss all about? I get enough "pro" arguments from gay people I know, but I'm sincerely curious to know what the (slightly!) more mainstream folks really think about this topic.

Keep it clean, no hitting below the belt and may the best sexual orientation win! On with the show!

[whb]

Between consenting adults in the privacy of their own domicile who cares.

A couple of important words there

Consenting - Must be overt not one of a variety of "Look how she is dressed of course she wanted to"

Adult - Means having the mental capacity to choose. Not drunk not incapacitated.

Privacy - I may be a prude but I think sexual activity should be a private affair.

Howard

[JimD]

Canada decriminalized it in the late 60's. As our then Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau put it 'The state has no place in the nation's bedrooms.'
jimd

[seafox61]

whats the fuss?

the assyrians quite some time before the common era (3000 BC ? ) relised that to militarrily stay on top of the heap then needed spear fadder ie just as many solders as their people could produce therefore non-productive activities like homosexuality and mastrabation were outlawed. in fact any socity or group of people or tribe that wishes to maintain its place in a world of competing groups and tinks about the matter will ( I belive) tend to strive for as many childern as is possable. very recently hispanics replaced blacks as the largest minority group. I do not have numbers at my fingertips but I expect this occured more through births than migration. with in 40 years california to texas and every thing south of idiho will likly revert to mexico as anglos are simply out bred and swamped by out hispanic neighbors.
to return on the topic above this philospohy entered our judao christian culture via the babolonians and the house of isreal
a side note also would you not agree that some of the most inteligent people in any comunity are the religious leaders? if agreeing if only for the sake of converstion please compair the jews and the church of rome ( can't seem to spell cathlic, catholic?) the Largest familys in the Jewish people tend to be in the rabinical familys where as wince the 1100s? the best and the britest in the christian world often go into the priest hood and produce no childern. might this account for a high general average inteligence amoung jewish people as oposed to the general western european population ( including white USA and Canada?) ( one joke being if it were not for afirmitive action the student population of stanford would consist of 20,000 aisans and 1000 rich Jews?)

best wishes
jeffery

jeffery

[NormMessinger]

What's the fuss, indeed!

Consenting adults, and all that, as defined above.

What they say gay men do at night in a couple of the Omaha City Parks, when no one else is around but them and and ocassionally a masquarading cop, is beyond my understanding. But, if they are threatening our children, I gotta wonder why children are in the park after closing hours and where their parents are.

--Norm

[Memphis Mike]

We have a park here in Memphis where they
do that in broad daylight Norm. I have nothing
against gays but I have a problem with this.
Its ruined the park for everyone else and
the authorities turn the other cheek.
Sometimes I believe they prefer to have the
Aids Virus running rampant in the gay
community.

[ishmael]

Actually Mike, I'd wager the authorities are more afraid of being labelled homophobic than they are of your upset as a park goer, or the spread of aids, or anything else. How's that for a conspiracy theory?

[Meerkat]

MM; are they actually having sex in public view in this park? Is this true of all parks in Memphis, or just the one? When I lived in SF (in the 70's) it was true that in the parks I often went to (all two of them), one I stopped going to because it was an obvious gay "playground" (people darting off into the bushes, muted moans - it was almost hilarious) and the other was Golden Gate park where I happened to come across both straight and gay couples in flagrante in daylight (still kept going to GG park though - too nice to pass up and the "games" weren't all that pervasive!). Here in Seattle, the park that has the city's conservatory has that rep (gay playground), but I've never noticed more then there being a lot of m/m couples around along with some m/f couples and families, all behaving decorously. Then again, I've never gone strolling through the bushes or been there at night.

Can't say I approve of public sex, but I'm not sure it's an exclusively gay activity either. Any gender mix doing some serious kissing is a bit of a turnoff even.

[Memphis Mike]

It's just the one park. They meet there
and then "take walks" togethor. It's a
real wooded park and you don't go in the
woods. It's funny because someone recently
complained to the police about it. They
said "we didn't know that was going on in
there." Its been going on for 20 years and
everyone knows it.

[Meerkat]

Seems like one park out of however many isn't all that bad is it? In compensation, gay property owners pay taxes used to fund schools and they rarely send kids to school

[ken mcclure]

And no one engages in heterosexual activities in parks?

[ACB]

What Norm said.

[John of Phoenix]

Is that where you've been Ken?

[brad9798]

In my business, I work with gay folks DAILY. Who cares. I could not care less about sexual orientation. 'They' are friends of mine, my family, and my children.

That being said, I don't want to walk around the corner with my kids and see too men going at it ... and, for that matter, it would be no more appropriate to walk around that same corner with my kids and see a woman and a man going at it.

There's a time and place for everything.

Whether a person is a 'good' or a 'bad' person has nothing to do with sexual orientation in my book.

Brad

[htom]

Their bedroom, their doings. None of my business.

Now there could be some kind of argument made that your spouse might be involved, but that's between you and yours, not a licence for you to snoop in bedrooms in general.

[Kristian]

I agree with the consenting adults in the bedroom ideal. However, it should be kept in the bedroom. I don't agree with special interest groups getting special treatment or with gay pride parades. There's never straight-pride parades so why should gays and transexuals get to be reveared?

[ishmael]

Kristian,

My gut, my emotion, is right there. I think we would be better off if we all lived a little more closeted lives. It ought be a personal matter, for which there is no sanction or descrimination, but which is not be rubbed in anyone's face.

Oscar Wilde once called homosexuality---"The love that hath no voice."

I once heard a sometimes wag of a talk show host, Howie Carr out of Boston retort---"Yeah, and now they won't shut up."

I'm hoping that things settle down, and that the flambouyance and the parades, and the weird teach-ins at our schools and such are symptoms of long repression, which will soon fade. I think it would better serve their cause to move with sincerity toward just being who they are.

An anecdote. I was a cabinetmaker for a very small company owned by a lesbian. We became quite close(the company was just me, another fellow who had the name recognition, Kris, who had the money, and a finisher). Anyway, one day Kris came in with a lilt in her step. She told us Jerry Falwell had just pronounced the aids epidemic a judgement of god on gays. I looked, puzzled, waiting for the other shoe to drop. "Don't you see, lesbians have the lowest aids rate in the country, and that makes us god's chosen people!"

Best all,

Jack

[ 11-05-2002, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Gary Bergman]

I dunno...I'm straight as they come but... The gay pride parade is a hoot! Used to watch yearly but now it falls on the same weekend as our Wooden Boat Show. My first mate used to walk the bisexual 'fence', but I think she fell off completely and is now a lesbian...Great around the campfire stories at anchor. No need in trippin' on it.

[Scott Rosen]

http://msnbc.com/news/830384.asp?pne=msn

Is it environment, or biology?

The evidence points more and more to biology.

It sure is difficult to view someone as being inferior or ill or bad if he was born with it.

The government should stay out of people's bedrooms. And people should keep what they do in their bedrooms to themselves.

[Meerkat]

I thought Oscar Wilde called it "the love that dare not speak it's name"?

Special interest groups? Does that make homosexuals and hetrosexuals somehow opposing parties. I think gay pride parades are silly and a hetro pride parade would be equally silly. How about underwear pride? Should the briefs procede the boxers with the bras in the middle? Where shall the long-johns march?

Kristian, I think almost any group can get a parade permit and there's nothing reverent about it.

In response to something a shellfish said in another thread about forcing things on the mainstream. I think that's closet bigotry. Either they're a part of our culture and deserve a proportional mention in our classrooms and media or they're not. Otherwise it's just another way of saying "separate but equal" - and that's been struck down by the supreme court.

I think the whole "don't ask, don't tell" thing is farcial too. What the hell is the big deal about some guy seeing another guy naked and enjoying the view? I think most guys would favor co-ed showers and that makes it a double-standard. Guys can look at wimmins, but it's just *aweful* if a gal looks at a naked guy or someone of the same sex looks and enjoys the view. I suspect women don't even let it bother them. I think the policy should be "look but don't touch".

Why is it that male homosexuality is evil but female homosexuality is less evil/tolorated more? I think we as a species have a lot of growing to do with respect to gender rights and preference rights. We're all supposed to be equal under the law, so why not act equal? (Of course, some people are more equal then others - money has a way of doing that.)

[seafox61]

Just wondering if their was any reaction to the idea that the "crime of homosexuality" is failure to produce the needed next generation of cannon fodder that I wrote about above

as to the gays paying taxes and not sending childern to school ... I myself have not had any childern but as a property owner I appriciated the sitter function of keeping the little rascals from stealing or vandalising my property for at least several hours a day just wish they would have the kids locked up from 6 am to 6 pm
jeff

[rodcross]

Gary,

Major mind f**k. Sorry!

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I got no problem if there is a Gay Pride or a Gay Halloween parade 364 days a year just as long as its not March 16 in NYC [img]smile.gif[/img]

Ohh and seafox61 you live in Utah dude, what ya got there Mormon gang bangers

[ 11-22-2002, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[JimD]

Originally posted by ken mcclure:
And no one engages in heterosexual activities in parks?

Ok, I confess, I once had heterosexual sex at about 10,000 feet on a mountain peak in Canada's Banff National Park, and guys, the air was getting thin, making it difficult to breath. Fortunately I have not been permanently afflicted with performance anxiety
jimd

[Frank Hagan]

For a conservative, I'm pretty liberal when it comes to these things. Living in an area with a lot of mature gays may have helped in this regard. The more strident, in-your-face gay activist is a minority within this minority.
Most simply want to be left alone, and don't think their sexual preference should in any way interfere with other things (choice of jobs, where they vacation, etc.)

I suspect promiscous male homosexuals have a lot more promiscious sex than heterosexuals (or lesbians). Women have a great moderating effect on young males ... they tame us, so to speak. I'm not sure how that works in the gay community. So the bathhouse model, where a man may have 5 or 6 partners in a single night, is hard for us mere mortal heterosexuals to duplicate (basketball stars excepted, of course). So there may be more of a public health issue.

[Frank Hagan]

Right after I posted that last message, the Wooden Boat Forum announced:

Processing...
Thanks for posting!

Sit tight... We are taking you back to: Homosexuality

HEY! I have never been gay! Not that there's anything wrong with it, but ...

[Meerkat]

If you don't sit tight, you may find yourself sitting otherwise

[Tar Devil]

Wow! Deja vu.

Later,

Phil

[LeeG]

I think gay pride parades are silly and a hetro pride parade would be equally silly. Why is it that male homosexuality is evil but female homosexuality is less evil/tolorated more? I think we as a species have a lot of growing to do with respect to gender rights and preference rights. We're all supposed to be equal under the law, so why not act equal? (Of course, some people are more equal then others - money has a way of doing that.)[/QB][/QUOTE]

Ok Meerkat, you opened the topic up but I sure as all hell wonder why. Silly??? you have got to be clueless if you don't know anyone that hasn't had to hide who they are all their life or risk injury or death to reveal themselves. I knew a fellow from another country who described a gay man getting a stick of dynamite shoved up his rectum and set off by folks that didn't like his place in their world,, maybe in that culture the following week someone else got stoned but it's not like saying wood boats are an anachronistic waste of time at a Wooden Boat show. It aint silly to feel safe with a group of like minded people.

[gunnar I am]

Around 1970, I worked for a guy, who most locals knew was gay.He was a good friend and did an awful lot of listening and understanding, for endless hours. I remember him telling me about his childhood, and how in the fifties, as a child, he wanted to play with dolls. Knowing it wasn't "right", he would take different lengths of rope, pound the ends with a rock, so it softened and loosened the fiber, and that would be his family of dolls, with soft hair.He could play without being detected. More recently, another friend ,whose four year old's fixation with the female gender and whose very movement and gesture was feminine,said to his mother as he held his hand to his head,"I'm a boy here, but I feel like a girl here." ,as he moved his hand to his heart.It was the most profound thing I have ever heard a child say. I'm always curious about the thinking of those ,that think gays should be counciled, so they might be enlightened, and join the heterosexual world. I know adults, who can't communicate at as deep a level as that four year old.

[Gary Bergman]

I usually stay out of these rants,but I already made a post earlier, so, here goes. As mentioned, my first mate for classic boat races is a lesbian. Here's the setup. Im a third generation journeyman Ironworker for a living. My recreational activities on my boat tend to be crewed by card carrying construction workers of various trades, as yachting is not a venue 'open' to these walks of life much. As a result, most of my 'crews' tend to be hard and thick skinned about most things.The girl who is my first mate is more comfortable at work with a chainsaw and a beater than with finish tools, a real hard hitter. Many women in construction have this attitude and I'm glad for it. Therefore, it was a small suprise when she mentioned that she was no longer 'bi'. Nothing 'dykey' about her. Yet, because of her preference, I see her laid off jobs in the first round regularly. Seems to me that she is descriminated against for this more often than because she's a woman(neither a good reason around here). Sexual issues are harder to prove in a work environment than most others. She just smiles and moves on.Glad its not happening to me.On several occaisions I have had subcontractors working under me that have given her 'walking papers' and have been swift to lay them off, siting turnaround is fair play, but thats no answer, just a personal way of getting even.I think it must be a tough row to hoe.....Gary

[seafox61]

Hi Joe from cold springs onhudson
Sorry I did not understand the question "what you got thereeemormans gang bangers"
please elaborate
thankyou
jeff

[Scott Rosen]

Joe, that comment was in incredibly bad taste. It offended me, and I'm not a Mormon. If I misread it, please explain.

One of the negative things I've noticed about the Forum is that very few people are willing to stand up against ethnic/religious/racial slurs. That's too bad.

[Larry P.]

Gangbanger is a term for teenage gang members and was made in reference to seafox's refernce of tenagers vandalizing and stealing. The Mormon part was of couse in reference to them being in Utah. Lighten up guys.

[ 11-22-2002, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Larry P. ]

[Alan D. Hyde]

It's not always popular to interject matters of fact into emotional discussions, but since no one else has done so, here goes:

The earlier comment that lesbianism seems less offensive to society than male homosexuality is historically not without basis. It likely relates to the epidemiological dangers long known to be posed by anal intercourse.

This practice (unlike normal heterosexual intercourse) causes inevitable micro-capillary bleeding, and provides an ideal route for infection. Hepatitis and AIDS are two of the many possible results. Long before AIDS was known, hepatitis was much feared by physicians dealing with homosexual males.

This is only one of many facts and factors to be rationally considered.

Weigh this as you will; I draw no conclusions.

Alan

[ 11-22-2002, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Ian McColgin]

Not homophobic but . . .

So there we were bringing an oil can into a tricky berth driving from the high tower on the tug. The Captain was looking a little stressed and told me he really had to take a leak but couldn't leave the controls, even to whizz over the side.

Off I went, down the ladder and into the caboose and around the galley and such till I found a suitable plastic jug. Back out stairs and companions and on up the ladder.

The Captain could see relief just ahead but after a bit of jostling: "Er. I really got my hands full here. Can you hold the jug for me?"

"Sure. I'll hold the jug."

A bit more jiggling and such and then, "I really got my hands full driving the boat, Ian. Can you just . . ."

"Hold it right there. And I mean YOU hold it. I'm just holding the jug and there's a limit to what I'll do for my captain."

As they say in the Andrew,
Rum, sodomy and the lash.

[ken mcclure]

I just have to do it. I have to give my real opinion.

My opinion is that if two (or more) people are happy, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference to me whether they are both male, both female or at least one of each.

And Scott, I agree with you. The group here used to jump on bad stuff with both feet.

[rodcross]

I grew up in an environment where the odds, normally 1 out of 5(or is it 1 out of 7?), were more like 1 out of 2. I've been hit on countless times, yet I've only had the need to say 'No', once. If I showed no interest, their interest faded...No different from heterosexual experiences.

The only sad part of being homosexual is growing up in a household where the mere thought is revolting. That can create wierd people, like the serial killer Helen Workas(sp?), or that character in the movie 'American Beauty'.

When my friend, Jack, was broke, he'd come and live with us for a few months. He was a pain-in-the-ass, lounging around in his kimono all day and doing the crossword and criticizing everything I did. I'd have left him with my children, anytime. They mourned his passing as much, if not more than I did. Did I mention that Jack would come to dinner in thigh-high boots and a feather boa?

[rodcross]

I just re-read my post and realized that my children, 3 of mine and 3 of hers, view sexual orientation as a reality, not a curse or an evil. Its a non-issue.

Thank you, Lord!

There are 6 more adults, that I helped create, who couldn't care less what your sexual choices are.

I like bringing those kind of people into the world.

[NormMessinger]

Which just goes to show the damage to kids is done more by the reaction of their adults as it is by what ever the event might be.

Good on ya, Rod.

--Norm

[DutchRub]

What the hell is a post like this doing on here? If I want this kind of crap I can go to a chat site and talk to all the flamin sickos I want out in the open.

[rodcross]

What?

Say again, Dutchrub.

[gunnar I am]

It is really heartwarming to see the many positive responses on this issue and where there is negative response,they do us the favor of shooting themselves in the foot,so we can go on with our business. Life is good.

[seafox61]

Thanks Scott & Larry
I was not offended I just did notunderstand what and if it was a question. ironically the youth that stole so much from my house after I moved out of it to take care of my mother were between 8 and 12.. I just recently got back cameras and lens and my father binoculars. the great irony being the two theifs were 9 and 12. they were turned in by their parrents.

we do have some gangs here so often they are hispanic ( less than 12000 Black people out of a population of 2.1 milion in the state) a very good friends nephew was knifed to death this summer after a confrantation started when 4 who claimed to be gang members started making fun of his dates looks.
just remembering a class mate in highschool. a little feller about 5 foot three whose mom had moven him and his sisters up from california after two older brothers had been killed in gang fights. this was the late 70s and he noted already he had run into gang members up here
jeffery

[rodcross]

Go away!

You're not that bright.

You've just given yourself away, bonehead.

[NormMessinger]

[ishmael]

Dunno Norm.

Often, we are too clever for our own good.

[Gary Bergman]

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Meerkat]

Some guys are just so mean their own hands wouldn't date 'em if one hand didn't hold the toher 'un down.

[ 11-23-2002, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[rodcross]

Sorry for the stupid post. Dutchrub angered me and then seafox came on with the same kind of syntax and spelling. I'm the one who's not too bright. Forgive me.

Man! I hate apologizing!