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Thread: Rowboat confused newby

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Lake Simcoe, Lake Couchiching, Georgian Bay, Severn River
    It may be a low free board in mid section for Simcoe in a storm , but it would probably ride high and be ok except maybe steering across the wind . Simcoe is big enough for rollers but most likely just whitecaps. Should not be rowing far out anyway .Storm wind comes from the south in summer and home is north, Beaching in wind might be tricky but any boat. The girls will want a hinged or removable ladder for swimming . What do you think about some kind of propulsion to get back home. Electric motor and prop on the rudder ? I am getting ahead of myself, I try to talk the talk and also walk the walk. time to build.

    Oh I's the by that built the boot and I's the by that sails her
    thanks everyone Jim (Soggy Bottoms )
    Edward,you packed my bag with essentials, pointed me in the right direction and gave me a push, thank you
    Last edited by Soggy Bottoms; 01-06-2022 at 01:16 PM.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    If you build with solid wood, lap fasteners are probably going to need to be fastened with rivets or clench nails. I suppose you could screw into sawn frames, but I wouldn't run screws into steamed frames. To me, frames that size would be too small to really give you the purchase you'd need for long term fastening.
    I will use bronze rivets on the laps and bronze screws in the frames. I will make the frames big enough to use small screws.
    Do you use an air powered hammer for the rivets ?

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    No, I used a 4 oz ball peen and a bucking iron to peen the rivets by hand. It's loud. I'd just clench nail the whole thing next time. If you clench the frames when they're still hot out of the box it's a breeze. Clench nailing is a much more pleasant experience than riveting things together. It's a skill that I picked up in about 10 minutes, too. Very satisfying to clench warm planking. I could do it all day.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Quote Originally Posted by Soggy Bottoms View Post
    I will use bronze rivets on the laps and bronze screws in the frames. I will make the frames big enough to use small screws.
    Do you use an air powered hammer for the rivets ?
    As just a note (and so you don't accidently go down a wrong path), rivets are straight copper, not bronze.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    http://www.faeringdesigninc.com/index.html These work very well. Or I just riveted in some frames on an old rowboat ., and just used the copper nails and washers from Jamestown Dist. If your doing a whole boat though rose head nails and proper roves sure look nice.
    David Satter www.sattersrestoration.com
    "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" Ben Franklin

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Gentleman, Thank you for your advise

    Yeadon , I spent 40 years being sure that any nail I drove did not do that. I will obtain 50 clench nails and rivets and some scrape wood and spend a few hours riveting and clenching and see which I can do best.

    NedL, if there is a wrong path, you may see signs that I have already been there, appreciate the information.

    David , those canoes look brand new. My sister inlaw had a 20 year old 15 ft canoe with a hole in the canvass an two broken ribs (never apoxied)
    She gave it to a guy who cut it in half and put shelves in both halves. I was mortified. I will try to get supplies locally but with the way couriers work so fast it will be a good fall back source of supply.
    thanks again
    Jim

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Quote Originally Posted by Soggy Bottoms View Post
    ...What do you think about some kind of propulsion to get back home. Electric motor and prop on the rudder ?
    Purists might disagree but if it were me I would definitely want a secondary source of power for those times when the muscle in my torso and arms wasn't enough. This is where that gorgeous transom might make things complicated. I definitely wouldn't want a a motor on the rudder on a boat I intended to almost exclusively row. You might not even want a rudder at all although it might come in handy when you have enough crew that one person could man the rudder while the rest rowed. One nice thing about a typical trolling motor on a tube shaft is that they are quite easy to keep just laying in the boat and clamp on the transom (or a side bracket) only when you need it. But you don't get much power from them. Just some thoughts. Electric motor on rudder (woodenboat.com)
    Last edited by JimD; 01-07-2022 at 05:41 PM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Bronze work hardens too rapidly to make a good rivet for planking. Before you "draw up" the join, a bronze rivet will just move back and forth, or bend inside the joint, complicating the entire job by then loosening bit with each additional blow. (Bronze rivets can work for joining metal to metal)

    Clench nailing is generally considered ok for a rowboat.
    A sailboat (or powerboat) will want the tensile strength of rivets.
    Jamestown used to be a good source for fasteners.
    If you are going to "practice" is a good idea to cut apart the join and check for bending of the fastener between the planks. This has to do with the diameter of the drilled hole for said fastener, clench or rivet...

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Also. You will probably be more prone to bending the nail if you clip it off too long.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Truthfully if it is between Rivets and clenched nails, I will go with rivets. I do not much like look of a clenched nail. Even when you get it to curl back and what I do not like is nails bent 90 Deg with only the tip buried. I was watching a video on this topic and the first guy spent about 10 minutes tapping the rivet round with a hammer. The second guy pulled out what looked like an air powered or maybe an electric hammer and put a tool over the rivet after he trimmed it, gave it one burst of 10 seconds of hits while moving the outfit in a circle and he was done. It might have been that video that the young guys are rebuilding with big rivets they made them selves out of solid round brass stock. I will use the best tools be it electric or whatever. Some may think I should spend the time to learn a new skill that I can use in the future boats I build. I am 74 ,there will be no more boats after this one.
    Soggy Bottoms


    Yeadon is right, of course.





    Yeadon


    I think You like clenched nails because you are really good at it.
    I am however a different duck with different abilities and disabilities.
    I will look forward to hopefully having conversations with you during the build.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Riveting is fun, too. Especially if you can get someone to back the nail with an iron while you peen. (My wife helped me with this)

    I used copper nails and conical roves from Jamestown Dist. My new build calls for clenched copper nails, so I will be practicing a lot before trying it on the real boat.

    It (peening) should only take about 60 seconds with a ball peen hammer, if that. Might want some ear protection, though for both people.

    Good luck!

    Mike

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    I preferred clench nails because they were easier to install and did the same job en masse as rivets. Less tap tap tap tap tap tap tap. Blergh. There’s no dishonor in building the boat you want, of course, and if you want rivets then you ought to do rivets.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Historically clench nailing was used in less expensive boats. Fast, light, easy to do, difficult to repair. Often seen in higher volume production. Rivets are more work; they can be removed if needed, and can be tightened up when the inevitable leaking starts in lapstrake. Very high end building used rivets and never switched to screw fastening in carvel building.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    In case anyone wonders what is happening . I sent Duck trap an email 6 days ago with no reply and I have found another email address on their site and have sent one to it. Any one who knows if they are closed for some reason?

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Quote Originally Posted by Soggy Bottoms View Post
    In case anyone wonders what is happening . I sent Duck trap an email 6 days ago with no reply and I have found another email address on their site and have sent one to it. Any one who knows if they are closed for some reason?
    Their website is working, I just purchased the NTS Boatbuilding In Pictures digital download and it arrived in my email inbox immediately. Spoke to Mr Simmons this morning, they are plugging and chugging on decoys with some boat repairs in the hopper. The best email is 1ducktrap@gmail.com and the phone number is on the website https://ducktrapstore.com/contact-us/
    Cheers
    Kent and Skipper
    Small Boat Restoration blog

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Thanks
    My fault , I used an incorrect email address
    Mr Simmons replied to my email that I sent to the correct address within a couple hrs.
    I am just anxcious to get going I guess
    Thanks again
    Jim

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    You're welcome. The digital download is a great read, he covers a lot of the pros, cons and differences of a traditional build vs glued lapstrake, rivets vs screws, etc...
    Cheers
    Kent and Skipper
    Small Boat Restoration blog

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Soggy, in post # 45, you describe someone setting a rivet with an air- powered hand-sized device. Search on the Web for a ' palm nailer ' - I believe that may be what he used


    Rick

    ( Good luck on your build )
    Charter Member - - Professional Procrastinators Association of America - - putting things off since 1965 " I'll get around to it tomorrow, .... maybe "

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Thats it. I did not know they existed, and now when I look around using the correct name I find everyone makes them.
    I have got to get out more often.
    I discused the boat build with my son and we are going to use marine plywood glued lapstrake . He said that it will be easier and much lighter and maybe less expensive. Although he is really not concerned about the cost. He said it is what it is , which means Dads paying. I think I will look at the palm nailer anyway.
    Thanks Rick

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Assuming we are talking about rivets, I'm not sure a "palm nailer" is the tool you want
    Perhaps if it was modified?
    a tutorial on rivet setting guns can be found here:
    https://www.mcmaster.com/rivets/air-...-solid-rivets/
    (I have modified less expensive air hammers to do this job. Along with forming a tool it is important to have accurate control of the speed. With glued laps the rivets are often considered optional, but I chose to use them as a belt and braces approach. Using clamps to build the hull, and riveting after the hull was finished we could get in several hundred rivets in a day)

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    I am really glad you wrote.
    I was a bit disappointed that the decision ended up being ply because I have never really deep down trusted glue joints and prefer mechanical fasteners. Oh, I have taken joints apart and had to bust and break through the wood while all the glue held.I can see all the advantage of using a stable material that is all the same and gluing with epoxy. I was trying to keep the number of stupid questions that I ask down a bit. I was going to look around for the answer to the question " Will it be ok If after the clamped ply planks are dry and immovable if I also put in some rivets. I did not think anyone would like me drilling holes into a waterproof hull to add rivets that were probably not necessary. In my mind glued joints can peel apart but can take tremendous compression but not so much shear and rivets should handle shear load if they are tight. I would also continue to use the sawed frames because a boat does not just need to be strong but needs to also look like it is strong to a passenger getting in for the first time. My opinion epoxy glued lapstrake without floor and side braces does not look strong.The floor without cross stiffening, while rowing probably would not feel strong and would flex, probably well within allowable limits but still make some nervous about fatigue. I hope to buy the plans tomorrow and once I have them , I am confident I will have a better understanding what the designer wants.
    I was issued a new credit card a few months ago. TIP make sure you activate your new cards right away, I did not. I have lots more stupid questions but lets see if I can find the information before I have to ask. I have CDs coming and books and vidios to study and plans and a lofting to review , material for the molds to get and space to make in the garage , I will be back in a few months.

    Oh yea a note to Wizbang
    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    are you sure you don't have dementia not parkinsons?
    one cannot have all the things in that you seek in one boat
    I had a telephone appointment today with my neurologist so I told him I was going to build a boat that I might never finish as therapy . He replied that he thought that was a very good idea. The answer to your question : yes probably both . Thanks for commenting, your keeping it real.
    Last edited by Soggy Bottoms; 01-18-2022 at 12:34 AM.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    My (plywood) planking was glued and screwed to sawn timber frames, stems, keel and etc which also served as the building form or moulds, all done before riveting. Yes I drilled several thousand holes in a watertight hull! The riveting was done before the boat was turned upright (except the sheer plank which was done after because it is easier to see and fair it. A luxury of a large enough shop)
    Making test laps with using offcuts of the actual material rivets and cutting them apart to prove the correct interference hole size, and technique.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    This is an interesting thread, and I want to wish you the very best with your build. It’s heck of a project but the rewards will be great.

    Best of luck to you, sir.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    I've built two of Dave Gentry's boats, and I urge you to reconsider them. They are not that hard to make. Anyone with basic woodworking skills can do it. They're also very forgiving. I.e., it's not hard to correct mistakes. The Shenandoah Whitehall might be a good boat for you. I built one (and stretched it a little bit beyond what Dave calls for). Not least of all, it's a quick build, maybe 50 hours. And you end up with a beautiful, lightweight and seaworthy boat.
    Red Boat Launch 3.jpg

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    I have not purchased the plans yet due to a problem with credit card identification . Looks like someone is trying to steal my codes.

    Anyway , I will look at the Whitehall it is as close to the NTS as anything I have seen .
    How long is your boat in the picture???
    It is a very nice looking boat. The transom looks smaller and without as much angle more vertical which is a good thing to my eye. I would prefer ply lapstrake . I will look up Dave Gentry's boats, The Shenandoah Whitehall,may be the boat . I had pretty much accepted that I would not finish it but maybe I can spend time in the boat instead of building time.
    Thank you
    Easily swayed, so in the end its not my fault

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Skin on frame and small . It does not meet all my criteria (nothing does) but I want a boat that will carry 4 adults and I picture the hull skin with me half way through it. My wife would not get into it . It is the ideal boat for someone ,very light, would row very fast, quick build and probably less money, but it is not for me.
    Thanks for the info.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    My Whitehall is about 15', a foot or so longer than Dave's plans. (I simply set the frames a little farther apart from each other.) The transom is raked; it's mainly a rowing boat. It's very light--about 55#--and rows beautifully. If I had made it to Dave's specs it would be even lighter. It's a lot easier to build than a lapstrake boat, and a lot lighter, too. And you can always build two! You could build the Whitehall and then build whatever you want to afterward. As I say, it doesn't take that long. Maybe you'll decide that you don't need another boat, or you'll find a used one you like. I have a Chesapeake Light Crafter dory that I bought used. Saved me a lot of time and money!

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    I am going too build a boat, some boat, if only just for therapy.
    Interesting perspective
    Build a boat that is easy ,fast, cheaper and lighter and then use it while i am building my legacy boat.
    Take some of the time in summer that I would have used building and spend it on the water on those nice evenings when the lake is glass.
    MMMMMMMMMM
    The downside is I have a higher risk of never getting the second boat done. But I might not finish it anyway.
    Over the last couple years I have lurked and read almost everything posted here. It struck me that this forum is full of very nice people who are willing to help and share hard won knowledge.
    I also thought a few people were maybe kind of odd and I now realize why I like it here , I fit in.
    I did not see that possible scenario
    Thanks

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    I have a Trojan Worm in my computer. The person has taken control of my email and says he wil use the forums in my name unless I send Bitcoins to him
    I will remove my namefrom this forum aso he can not enter
    I will return

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    If you return as Boggy Sottoms we might guess that it's you!

    And sorry about the jerk who's messing with you.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Regarding trojan worm, we bought a new computer Apple desk top very much like the last one that was 15 years old and was on its second replacement new disk drive so it was untrustworthy any way. We abandoned the old computer and our emails , loaded on some top of the line internet security and set up new email address so far every thing seems ok. Now I need to change my email address in my profile here and if successful it looks like I will be able to retain my name. Probably a silly question but I have belonged to a couple forums and use names like Soggy Bottoms, why would I not use my real name ? I dont know why we dont . Is there any reason , Should I stay with that fake name?
    The more choices that I have the more I am frozen trying to make a decision and I need to move forward so I am going to build a Newfoundland Trap Skiff (N.T.S.) which has a small flat bottom with marine ply lapstrake with epoxy glued joints and some rivets a bit of oak or hard maple frames .
    Thanks every one who gave me advice and suggestions. I will be back with pictures of the build and probably seeking more advise as I go along.
    Now I will try to find a string that describes the process of how to post photographs.on this forum.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    Posting photos is now easy.

    Just click on the " photo" icon in the toolbar. ( It looks sort of like a framed picture; next to the filmstrip)

    A window will open allowing you to browse photo files on your computer.

    Select the photo.

    click " upload."

    Done.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Rowboat confused newby

    B7B64C76-3775-426F-A4FD-4F49B9A608E3.jpg
    Thanks for the info, I loaded one just to try it. I was building a"George" (Atkinson row boat) in my garage about 5 years ago. The mold was almost ready but I took a break. My wife was going to have a party, and she told me to put the mold somewhere else for a few days. I put it at the side of the house where no one goes and I put a tarp over it . Forgot about it , violent storm , tarp blew off , every piece of wood and ply warped including the saw horses. Dumb
    Last edited by Soggy Bottoms; 02-03-2022 at 11:46 PM.

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