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Thread: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

  1. #1
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    Default looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    Hello--new here. Been sailing for 30+ years, owned a Coronado 15, Pearson 28, sailed a lot on a Pearson Triton. What I'm looking for now though is something I don't know a lot about--but many of you do. I'd like to have a trailerable daysailer with the following characteristics. Note: I do not plan to build the boat myself, so required skill/experience level for construction is not a factor.

    Lightweight
    Accommodates 2 adults comfortably
    Is super-simple and quick to rig and un-rig at the ramp
    Is easy and fun to single-hand
    Sails well, but not at the expense of good stability and a comfortable ride for what it is
    Was designed primarily as a sailboat, without compromise to rowing

    Something that fits all that as well as possible, but nothing more--no excess.

    Been looking at spritsail rigs.

    Welcome any specific suggestions and comments on those.
    Last edited by phillipfrankreid; 12-24-2021 at 10:03 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    The Phoenix III? It even has a sprit rig option.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    The Phoenix III? It even has a sprit rig option.
    That looks like a good option--thanks!

  4. #4
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    The Phoenix III is an awesome boat--I've sailed one a bunch. You can see a bit of it in action HERE and HERE if it helps.

    FYI, it's comfy for 2 adults, but would seem very crowded with more than that in my experience. But very fast to rig and launch. Sails and rows very well, can take a small outboard if necessary. Having used both spritsails and lugsails, I much prefer lugsails these days. For one thing, reefing is quite simplified. But then, you lose about 25 sq ft of sail area that the spritsail sloop rig gives you.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  5. #5
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    The Phoenix III is an awesome boat--I've sailed one a bunch. You can see a bit of it in action HERE and HERE if it helps.

    FYI, it's comfy for 2 adults, but would seem very crowded with more than that in my experience. But very fast to rig and launch. Sails and rows very well, can take a small outboard if necessary. Having used both spritsails and lugsails, I much prefer lugsails these days. For one thing, reefing is quite simplified. But then, you lose about 25 sq ft of sail area that the spritsail sloop rig gives you.

    Tom
    Thanks Tom--I am certainly interested in gathering information about the rig options for that boat. It does indeed seem like an ideal candidate, and it's something I could even consider building, with my experience level and the proper "homework," as the designer wisely advises. Thanks for the video links.

    Can you give an idea of what the real-world trade-offs of lug versus sprit-sloop are, in addition to simplified reefing? Obviously the single-sail is also a plus for simplicity, but I'm wondering what the actual trade-off in,, say, going upwind is. I'm also always interested in the ease of sailing deep with alternatives to the marconi, which in my opinion is about as ill-suited to that as anything except maybe a schooner with a big main.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    Quote Originally Posted by phillipfrankreid View Post
    Thanks Tom--I am certainly interested in gathering information about the rig options for that boat. It does indeed seem like an ideal candidate, and it's something I could even consider building, with my experience level and the proper "homework," as the designer wisely advises. Thanks for the video links.

    Can you give an idea of what the real-world trade-offs of lug versus sprit-sloop are, in addition to simplified reefing? Obviously the single-sail is also a plus for simplicity, but I'm wondering what the actual trade-off in,, say, going upwind is. I'm also always interested in the ease of sailing deep with alternatives to the marconi, which in my opinion is about as ill-suited to that as anything except maybe a schooner with a big main.
    Well, I have no racing background or particular type-A drive to maximize windward performance, so take my comments with that in mind. Here's a few thoughts on the spritsail vs. lugsail experiences I've had:

    1. The lug rig can be dropped instantly because the weight of the yard drops it right down, and the sail isn't attached to the mast so can't bind. The spritsails I've used didn't even use halyards, so you either had to brail them (leaving lots of windage aloft) or pull the entire mast out to drop the rig.

    2. Reefing--already mentioned, but lugsails excel at easy fast reefing. That can keep you comfortable sailing as it breezes up, nice and in control. Spritsail reefing systems tend to be much more complicated.

    3. I found sometimes that it was fiddly trying to keep the sprit in the peak grommet when trying to hoist the spritsail. This can probably be solved with some kind of rigging trick, but the lugsail has no such complication.

    4. A balance lug rig is self-vanging to some degree, and is very gentle in a gybe because the sail area forward of the mast opposes the sail area behind the mast.

    Upwind, I've never had any trouble with the 76 sq ft balance lug rig. In the 2016 Texas 200, there was one leg with about 6-7 miles dead to windward in a narrow channel. Many boats motored, or quit, or took a tow. My friend and I just tacked casually upwind the whole way. I think the Phoenix III is a very good windward boat, even with the lug rig. It tacks very quickly, loses little momentum, and keeps good speed to windward (by casual comparisons with my new boat, an 18' lug-rigged whitehall designed by Don Kurylko, the Phoenix III is always faster to windward, by quite a bit).

    Both rigs do well, though. Spritsails were the dominant traditional rig on the east coast of the U.S., whereas lugsails never caught on there. Both set on an unstayed mast, which will keep rigging fast and simple. I just find that there's less fussing and complication with a lugsail. If you're more performance oriented, you'd probably be interested in Michael Storer's archive of lugsail tuning and rigging:

    https://www.storerboatplans.com/cate...lug-rig-setup/

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 12-24-2021 at 02:25 PM.
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  7. #7
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    Other designs that might be of interest given what you want:

    John Welsford's Walkabout or Scamp.

    Francois Vivier, Ian Oughtred--both have lots of designs that might suit.

    Ross Lillistone also has a stitch-n-glue version of the Phoenix III called First Mate. And there's his Little Egret if you want a sharpie type with a sprit rig (not a spritsail), which is another easy-handling rig from what I've heard.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  8. #8
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    you'll have to row this one when the wind dies but it sure is simple and pretty Penobscot 17 - Small Boats Magazine (smallboatsmonthly.com)
    David Satter www.sattersrestoration.com
    "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" Ben Franklin

  9. #9
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    Consider a catboat: fast to rig, roomy and fun to sail

    I enjoyed my Bolger Bobcat
    Elect a clown expect a circus

  10. #10
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Well, I have no racing background or particular type-A drive to maximize windward performance, so take my comments with that in mind. Here's a few thoughts on the spritsail vs. lugsail experiences I've had:

    1. The lug rig can be dropped instantly because the weight of the yard drops it right down, and the sail isn't attached to the mast so can't bind. The spritsails I've used didn't even use halyards, so you either had to brail them (leaving lots of windage aloft) or pull the entire mast out to drop the rig.

    2. Reefing--already mentioned, but lugsails excel at easy fast reefing. That can keep you comfortable sailing as it breezes up, nice and in control. Spritsail reefing systems tend to be much more complicated.

    3. I found sometimes that it was fiddly trying to keep the sprit in the peak grommet when trying to hoist the spritsail. This can probably be solved with some kind of rigging trick, but the lugsail has no such complication.

    4. A balance lug rig is self-vanging to some degree, and is very gentle in a gybe because the sail area forward of the mast opposes the sail area behind the mast.

    Upwind, I've never had any trouble with the 76 sq ft balance lug rig. In the 2016 Texas 200, there was one leg with about 6-7 miles dead to windward in a narrow channel. Many boats motored, or quit, or took a tow. My friend and I just tacked casually upwind the whole way. I think the Phoenix III is a very good windward boat, even with the lug rig. It tacks very quickly, loses little momentum, and keeps good speed to windward (by casual comparisons with my new boat, an 18' lug-rigged whitehall designed by Don Kurylko, the Phoenix III is always faster to windward, by quite a bit).

    Both rigs do well, though. Spritsails were the dominant traditional rig on the east coast of the U.S., whereas lugsails never caught on there. Both set on an unstayed mast, which will keep rigging fast and simple. I just find that there's less fussing and complication with a lugsail. If you're more performance oriented, you'd probably be interested in Michael Storer's archive of lugsail tuning and rigging:

    https://www.storerboatplans.com/cate...lug-rig-setup/

    Tom
    That's the info I wanted. I'm not looking to maximize windward performance either, especially at the expense of good downwind sailing. There will be no Windex on the mast Thanks.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    How about one of these,

    https://www.com-pacyachts.com/traile...icnic-cat.html


    I sail on my friends com-pac Sunday Cat quite a bit and really enjoy it. Super comfortable cockpit. The first gaff rig I’ve sailed. Took me a bit to learn to trim correctly but it’s a lot fun and more weatherly than I had been lead to believe. They really have the mast raising and rigging dialed in. Takes one person under five minutes to get the mast up and rigged.

    If you can deal with it being fiberglass it might be the perfect boat.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    Consider a catboat: fast to rig, roomy and fun to sail

    I enjoyed my Bolger Bobcat
    I have--I like the looks of the Joel White Marsh Cat. Definitely on the list; thanks for the endorsement.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Jfitzger View Post
    How about one of these,

    https://www.com-pacyachts.com/traile...icnic-cat.html


    I sail on my friends com-pac Sunday Cat quite a bit and really enjoy it. Super comfortable cockpit. The first gaff rig I’ve sailed. Took me a bit to learn to trim correctly but it’s a lot fun and more weatherly than I had been lead to believe. They really have the mast raising and rigging dialed in. Takes one person under five minutes to get the mast up and rigged.

    If you can deal with it being fiberglass it might be the perfect boat.
    Oh yeah no hate for 'glass on my part; and I know how to work on glass as well as wood so there's that. This does belong on the list for sure.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    Quote Originally Posted by David Satter View Post
    you'll have to row this one when the wind dies but it sure is simple and pretty Penobscot 17 - Small Boats Magazine (smallboatsmonthly.com)
    That's super-pretty. It'd be on the big end of my spectrum but still do-able.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    Not sure where you draw the line on light, but since catboats are in consideration, Iíve always been drawn to Bolgerís Harbinger. At one point I sketched a lug yawl rig on it for a sail-and-oar study. A sort of baby Chebacco. Thatís a bit of drift, but the base design might suit.

    http://rosslillistonewoodenboat.blog...inger.html?m=1

    Another Bolger catboat, Spartina-

    https://m.sailboatlistings.com/photographs/80710
    Last edited by Wiley Baggins; 12-24-2021 at 04:17 PM.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    So I love Welsford , Bolger, and any catboat is beautiful. My apologies for mentioning a glass boat here but I'm going to do a little cruising in the next few years and wanted something I can handle myself and still launch and rig easily. I'm fixing up a 1966 O'day Mariner. Classic lines, centerboard , can sail in 10 inches of water. Enough room for two 6 foot people to stretch out in the cabin. Main sheet , jib sheet that's it. 1,300 lbs. IMG_4907.jpgIMG_4990.jpg
    David Satter www.sattersrestoration.com
    "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" Ben Franklin

  17. #17
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    Private message send...

  18. #18
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    There are a lot of suitable boats on this page.

    https://www.selway-fisher.com/OtherDB.htm

    And have a look at his dinghy pages too.
    Just an amateur bodging away..

  19. #19
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    I am building an Iain Oughtred Caledonia Yawl - I wanted a daysailer with stability that also had good performance. I used to race and am rather intolerant of boats that don't sail very well.

    I'd suggest you have a look at:
    a) Oughtred Caledonia Yawl or Fulmar
    b) Francois Vivier's Jewell (I may build this one next)
    c) John Brooks Somes Sound 12 1/2 - one of the prettiest boats I have ever seen

    Good luck with your search. Suggest you consider if you need to move the boat when either there is no/too much wind or the tide is against you - some boats take an outboard more easily than others.........................

    Regards Neil

  20. #20
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    Default Re: looking for advice on possible candidates for a daysailer

    Quote Originally Posted by David Satter View Post
    So I love Welsford , Bolger, and any catboat is beautiful. My apologies for mentioning a glass boat here but I'm going to do a little cruising in the next few years and wanted something I can handle myself and still launch and rig easily. I'm fixing up a 1966 O'day Mariner. Classic lines, centerboard , can sail in 10 inches of water. Enough room for two 6 foot people to stretch out in the cabin. Main sheet , jib sheet that's it. 1,300 lbs. IMG_4907.jpgIMG_4990.jpg
    Can't go wrong with Uffa Fox

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