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Thread: Inserts for Carbon Fiber oar outriggers

  1. #1
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    Default Inserts for Carbon Fiber oar outriggers

    I have a beautiful Annapolis Wherry. The original builder was an engineer who died soon after it was completed--the boat was never painted or launched (I don't think this is a haunted ship or anything. He died in an unrelated manner). Build quality is fantastic. I have used it off and on for a year or two with some utility oars that I had laying around, and a set of crude locust outriggers that were fine for fishing or fooling around, but now I want to get the boat up to its potential. I am going to put carbon fiber outriggers on the boat. It came with a set of very high end 10 ft, featherweight oars. I need about 14" outboard to make it work. I want to put a stainless steel insert between the layers of carbon for several reason: 1. Support for shape--although I don't think it needs much; 2. metal contact point for the oarlocks and the insert pins where it will attach to the hull--so that over time the wear from oar movement doesn't ellipse the insert points; 3. I am hoping to avoid additional attachments UNDERSIDE in the form of tubing, and attachment fore and aft of the outrigger, and I think the rigidity of the SS insert should lend itself to that. However, I may be overthinking this. Is a carbon fiber outrigger, on each side, stout enough to do away with the SS insert sleeve? If so, what would serve as a bearing where the pins and oarlock will insert? Would G10 suffice?
    Last edited by davebrown; 11-27-2021 at 05:30 PM.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Inserts for Carbon Fiber oar outriggers

    Quote Originally Posted by davebrown View Post
    I have a beautiful Annapolis Wherry. The original builder was an engineer who died soon after it was completed--the boat was never painted or launched. Build quality is fantastic. I have used it off and on for a year or two with some utility oars that I had laying around, and a set of crude locust outriggers that were fine for fishing or fooling around, but now I want to get the boat up to its potential. I am going to put carbon fiber outriggers on the boat. It came with a set of very high end 10 ft, featherweight oars. I need about 14" outboard to make it work. I want to put a stainless steel insert between the layers of carbon for several reason: 1. Support for shape--although I don't think it needs much; 2. metal contact point for the oarlocks and the insert pins where it will attach to the hull--so that over time the wear from oar movement doesn't ellipse the insert points; 3. I am hoping to avoid additional attachments UNDERSIDE in the form of tubing, and attachment fore and aft of the outrigger, and I think the rigidity of the SS insert should lend itself to that. However, I may be overthinking this. Is a carbon fiber outrigger, on each side, stout enough to do away with the SS insert sleeve? If so, what would serve as a bearing where the pins and oarlock will insert? Would G10 suffice?
    Needs a photo Dave, I am not picturing this.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Inserts for Carbon Fiber oar outriggers

    If properly designed and fabricated CF sleeves ought to be perhaps stiffer than SS of similar cross section besides being vastly lighter. But as rgthom's indicated I'd love to see a sketch or other drawing of just what you have in mind.

    I've seen CF socket + tenon sleeves before but nothing pre-made yet that would serve for joining outrigger (aka?) sections. Point of interest for me is that I'm building the CLC-designed ama + aka package for their Waterlust expedition canoe I completed earlier this year. With ama's hung several feet on either side of the main hull though I expect a steep (and perhaps wet) learning curve when launching from ramps where their's a pier adjacent for mooring and boarding. I anticipate having to come up with some means by which the amas can be deployed once the main hull is launched so some kind of socketed arrangement or hinged aka will be a challenge to overcome.

    Mike Waters, for his W-17 catamaran design, has come up with a way to hinge the two akas using FG instead of the original SS hinges but as the Waterlust aka's a single element that becomes more problematic even with amas that are half or less the length of the W-17's.
    Last edited by sp_clark; 11-27-2021 at 04:55 PM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Inserts for Carbon Fiber oar outriggers

    Well, gentlemen, and hello Tom--if I recall you have a Walkabout and we met and talked once at the South End Club--hopefully not misremembering you--I have a sketch. And damn, it sure is AMAZING (hilarious) looking. So I will post in a minute. And after we all stop rolling on the floor, consider that my idea is coming from some outriggers on a South End rowboat. Dead simple, effective, and fantastic. I used them for years. They were titanium, and according to club mythology, created for the club by a Boeing Engineer long since moved on to other things. The inboard foot simply fits into a slotted cassette, sort of like a cassette rudder blade, with three pins which act as temporary rivets, removable, for when the outriggers are attached. When you are done rowing, you remove the pins, lift the outriggers up and put them into the interior of the boat. So hang on I will post the amazing sketches.
    Last edited by davebrown; 11-27-2021 at 05:23 PM.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Inserts for Carbon Fiber oar outriggers

    This shows the angle and location of the outrigger.

    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Inserts for Carbon Fiber oar outriggers

    This shows the inboard foot position of the outrigger The titanium version had about a 6" foot. I can increase or decrease--I have some carbon fiber laying around. The Cassette, which will form a slot for the foot, an anchor point, and the location for the insert pins, is not made yet. Easy stuff. But in my imagination, which William Faulkner would call "fecund", it is already made and boy is it easy.

    Last edited by davebrown; 11-27-2021 at 05:29 PM.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Inserts for Carbon Fiber oar outriggers

    BEHOLD. Here is my amazing Master Drawing. All those years of drafting classes paid off.

    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Inserts for Carbon Fiber oar outriggers

    A pen and paper rendition of the ACTUAL OUTRIGGER. This is why I was once invited to a party by Ron Wood. We both draw stuff, and play the guitar.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Inserts for Carbon Fiber oar outriggers

    Dave,

    You might need to work a little on details of this "thing".
    I spent my professional life drawing parts and can't understand what you want.

    But, you can't make carbon fiber structure equal strength in the same size as SS.
    Just doesn't work. If the SS structure is over built you might make it work.

    I made a cross arm for supporting oars out of 3/4" x 2" oak - it was seriously overweight.
    You could probably make this easier out of wood.

    Do you want an insert to make something for the oarlock to go thru? like a vertical tube? Or something else?

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Inserts for Carbon Fiber oar outriggers

    I'm guessing that we are talking about something like the laminated outriggers in this thread:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ing-Cotton-Row



    I think a carbon fiber version of this design would be a neat project and worth doing just for the enjoyment and education factors, but I wonder about the level of effort in relation to the actual benefit. While an Annapolis Wherry is light in comparison to many recreational row boats, it's far heavier than even a training single. Much too heavy for any weight savings of CF over wood to make any difference at all here. Personally I would build the Angus outrigger instead:

    https://angusrowboats.com/pages/sliding-seat

    Also is the boat set up for a sliding seat now? That's not clear from the photos or description. If not, then I think the 14" outriggers and ten foot sculls are not going to do much for you. You need the extension of the sliding seat to take advantage of the longer oars. The Angus sliding seat design can be adapted to the Annapolis Wherry:

    https://angusrowboats.com/blogs/angu...napolis-wherry

    But the easiest option would be the Piantedosi drop in sliding seat and rigger, which is what the Annapolis Wherry was designed for. But if the goal is to build CF outriggers for the enjoyment of the project I have a few comments.

    1. There is little point in using a stainless fabrication to add strength or rigidity to the structure. As soon as you do that you eliminate all the weight benefits of CF entirely and you might as well just make it from some other material.

    2. Designing a laid-up CF structure with appropriate strength and rigidity is a major engineering project. If you really want a CF outrigger then you might look at building something like the Angus outrigger out of CF sheet.

    3. You will definitely need metal inserts for the oarlock bearing surfaces regardless of what design or materials you use.
    - Chris

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Inserts for Carbon Fiber oar outriggers

    CStevens: That's pretty close. Very nice hull by the way. I LOVE the structure. My boat weighs 69 lbs without the sliding seat, which it has. I am using Carbon Fiber because I have some laying around from another project. Therefore, my main issue is the bearings laid at the pins within the cassette, and the oarlocks themselves. Mr. Upchurch, my drawing, which I hope made some people chuckle, is not reflective of the actual end product. I have a finished, and well used version--I just don't have a photograph of it. Weight savings doesn't trouble me in either direction. This is for recreational rowing, and the boat is shockingly light unrigged anyway. I might add a support under the oarlock, which is how the engineer had envisioned it before his death, in which case I might use either aluminum tubing or carbon fiber tubing.. However, he based his design on competition boats which allow the slightest bit of light under the oar, requiring feathering with every stroke, and it also would have been a bitch at the dock. Worth it for a competition rowing shell, annoying and cumbersome for taking a flyrod out on a mountain lake.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Inserts for Carbon Fiber oar outriggers

    Simplist thing might be to just use a set of bronze 1/2 in bushings. You can get some with a lip on one end so they could be inserted into a 5/8 hole. Assume that you are going to do some kind of core, wood probably and wrap it in carbon. You might want to look at the specs used in the various rowings now common. Indeed you might want to look at making a laminated wing with some bolts into your gunwales which could be simpler than bent riggers. Check out Angus Rowboats. The Gaaco oarlocks have a small bushing that lets it fit 1/2 inch holes nicely. An
    Ben Fuller
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Inserts for Carbon Fiber oar outriggers

    Small Boats Magazine has an article on a wooden shell design that was modified for a carbon "wing" outrigger.

    https://smallboatsmonthly.com/articl...-rowing-shell/

    Unfortunately the article is light on details of the CF components but it looks like a Pocock rigger:

    https://www.pocock.com/shells/hypercarbon-k1/



    The setup on that boat might be a useful reference for designing outriggers for the AW. I do think that some sort of one-piece design is likely to be easier to build than individual riggers for each side though.

    ETA: Oh... and one other thing worth adding to the design would be some form of adjustment. I'd at least want the ability to adjust the height of the oarlocks, either by adjusting the height of the rigger, or by using adjustable sculling oarlocks, or both. I assume the ten foot sculls are set up with square sleeves for sculling oarlocks? If so that makes the design of the metal insert a little easier because it just needs to hold a fixed pin rather than providing a bearing surface for the oarlock
    Last edited by cstevens; 11-28-2021 at 11:06 AM.
    - Chris

    Any single boat project will always expand to encompass the set of all possible boat projects.

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Inserts for Carbon Fiber oar outriggers

    I fail to see the necessity of metal inserts. At the tips of the outrigger you need some high density insert (I asume the core will be foam) for the hole. In the hole you put a plastic bushing (UHDPE, PTFE, etc.) to take the oarlock pin. This is a wear item, to be exchanged as needed.
    At the inboard end you simply slide it into a skeletonized box glued to the hull. You can secure it with a latch, bolt, spring, etc., even a bungee cord.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Inserts for Carbon Fiber oar outriggers

    I have built aluminum riggers for my boat that is similar in size to the Annapolis wherry. I cut and bend the components, and have them welded locally. You want the rigger to be very rigid, and having it connect across the gunwales makes a big difference. I found that having two outriggers attached to the boat hull meant that the hull twisted with the rowing loads. I'm sure that you could build something similar in carbon fiber, I would search carbon fiber wing rigger for some ideas. I don't think that stainless inserts at the oarlocks are needed, use commercially available pins and gates that bolt into the rigger so the bearing surface is on the pins.
    I have an assembly video that show the installation of the seat rack and rigger into my boat. The rigger shows up in the video at about 1:20.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slIY8gxj1BM
    Best rgds

    Rick
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