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Thread: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

  1. #351
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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    [QUOTE=Aquinian;6571636]
    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    "As we say in Germany, if there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis."

    - Dr. Jens Foell

    [/QUOE]

    Oh yes, and if you think that the same people who yell "guilt by association" actually mean that they reject it in principle, and not merely because it associates Hilary Clinton with the rape of minors (just for example), you would be mistaken.

    More directly, if that one photograph, taken after the shootings, is your only evidence, then you're on thin ground, aren't you?

    The promoters of race hatred are very busy investigating social media, lifting every rock and peering into every cave. They couldn't find so much as a hint that Rittenhouse was political, let alone "white supremacist" or anything similar.

    On the other hand, they found that the bloke who drove his car through a crowd of innocents celebrating Christmas had numerous videos and other social media posts telegraphing his hated of white people, the police, etc.

    So, Youtube scrubbed his nasty videos the very day after he killed all those people, and CNN and others refer to a "car" that killed people, because unlike the Rittenhouse case, which they wanted to make about race (when it wasn't), this looks from the data to have actually been about race. The media have blood on their hands.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/waukesh...da-11638310613
    Utterly remarkable.
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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquinian View Post
    There's nothing more political than "contextualising" an otherwise simple matter so as to politicise it and further, make it out to be that the other guy is politicising it!

    Don't assume that everybody is like you, and sees everything in terms of power.

    Rosenbaum was not a political actor. You should be relieved that, knowing that, you no longer have to defend a suicidal child rapist in order to get BLM off the hook. And Rittenhouse was a BLM supporter - he still is, even after what happened - so you don't need to continue trying to politicise his actions in order to promote BLM.

    Indeed, even the truth is OK for you hyper-political types, in this case. Remarkable.

    Adorable.

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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquinian View Post
    Aquinas approves of self-defence. He also approves of the death penalty. And he disapproves of lying.
    Does that include killing someone who is not armed with any lethal weapon?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  4. #354
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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquinian View Post
    Aquinas approves of self-defence. He also approves of the death penalty. And he disapproves of lying.
    Summae Theologiae Question 64 (murder), article 7 Aquinas supports self defense, but does not approve of taking a person's life even in self defense, except when doing so serves a public good.

    That is, Rittenhouse would have (in Aquinas' view) been permitted in self defense to take the life of someone only when the person attacking him posed a danger to someone other than merely Rittenhouse. For instance, one may kill a person who is committing a mass shooting, but not a person who is merely posing a threat (especially an unarmed threat) to oneself.
    I answer that, Nothing hinders one act from having two effects, only one of which is intended, while the other is beside the intention. Now moral acts take their species according to what is intended, and not according to what is beside the intention, since this is accidental as explained above (II-II:43:3; I-II:12:1). Accordingly the act of self-defense may have two effects, one is the saving of one's life, the other is the slaying of the aggressor. Therefore this act, since one's intention is to save one's own life, is not unlawful, seeing that it is natural to everything to keep itself in "being," as far as possible. And yet, though proceeding from a good intention, an act may be rendered unlawful, if it be out of proportion to the end. Wherefore if a man, in self-defense, uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repel force with moderation his defense will be lawful, because according to the jurists [Cap. Significasti, De Homicid. volunt. vel casual.], "it is lawful to repel force by force, provided one does not exceed the limits of a blameless defense." Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense in order to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's. But as it is unlawful to take a man's life, except for the public authority acting for the common good, as stated above (Article 3), it is not lawful for a man to intend killing a man in self-defense, except for such as have public authority, who while intending to kill a man in self-defense, refer this to the public good, as in the case of a soldier fighting against the foe, and in the minister of the judge struggling with robbers, although even these sin if they be moved by private animosity.
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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Summae Theologiae Question 64 (murder), article 7 Aquinas supports self defense, but does not approve of taking a person's life even in self defense, except when doing so serves a public good.

    That is, Rittenhouse would have (in Aquinas' view) been permitted in self defense to take the life of someone only when the person attacking him posed a danger to someone other than merely Rittenhouse. For instance, one may kill a person who is committing a mass shooting, but not a person who is merely posing a threat (especially an unarmed threat) to oneself.
    Wait please confirm: "Aquinas supports self defense, but does not approve of taking a person's life even in self defense, except when doing so serves a public good. "

    So if you are attacked by a drugged out crazed person intent on killing you, you can't kill that person in self defence?

    Or does killing that person in self defence serve a public good?

    If the latter, then Aquinas supports and approves of taking a person's life in self defence.

  6. #356
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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Wait please confirm: "Aquinas supports self defense, but does not approve of taking a person's life even in self defense, except when doing so serves a public good. "

    So if you are attacked by a drugged out crazed person intent on killing you, you can't kill that person in self defence?
    Correct, unless that person is armed and attempting to kill you, but only then if you cannot retreat and remove yourself from danger. Even then you should try to disable and disarm rather than kill.
    Or does killing that person in self defence serve a public good?
    Dumb question, killing people never serves the public good, except in the case that Tom F quoted by soldiers at war, or when police take out an active shooter
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    I suspect Aquinas doesn't read Aquinas.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    I suspect Aquinas doesn't read Aquinas.
    Nor, it seems, does Rummy. Even when I've excerpted the specific bit of Aquinas to review, and highlighted the most relevant phrases.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Well, you are the monkey in rummy's wrench, ya know.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    This is the key statement
    Now it is much more lawful to defend one's life than one's house. Therefore neither is a man guilty of murder if he kill another in defense of his own life.”
    If the threat is not a lethal threat, then the killing is murder.
    From the link
    And yet, though proceeding from a good intention, an act may be rendered unlawful, if it be out of proportion to the end. Wherefore if a man, in self-defense, uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repel force with moderation his defense will be lawful, because according to the jurists [Cap. Significasti, De Homicid. volunt. vel casual.], "it is lawful to repel force by force, provided one does not exceed the limits of a blameless defense."
    So under that guidance, both Rosenbaum and Huber were murdered.
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  11. #361
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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    I'm sorry, but quoting Exodus on matters of law and morality, other than for historical interest, is about as helpful as quoting Stalin or the Code of Hammurabi.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 12-03-2021 at 09:41 AM.
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    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquinian View Post
    Nick, he doesn’t say the threat has to be lethal. Indeed, he quotes Holy Writ saying that mortally wounding a mere thief is lawful, so he is hardly laying down the principle that only lethal force can be met with lethal force, and such a principle would not make any practical sense anyway (as our military has found out when under stoopid UN rules of engagement, rules only a bureaucrat could have invented).

    The principle is PROPORTION. Proportion does not mean equality. If you point your gun at me I can fire mine at you. I don’t have to wait to see if I die before it is lawful to apply lethal force, as you would have St. Thomas saying.

    Hitting someone across the head with a lump of wood suffices to invite a just retaliation with lethal force. Why? Because contrary to the prosecutor at the trial, you don’t have to let someone beat you possibly to death when you can stop him, even at the risk of his life.
    Are you being deliberately obtuse.
    in defense of his own life
    and
    in self-defense, uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful
    Neither Rosenbaum and Huber were armed so shooting and killing them was murder.
    At the other end of the scale, a British householder was confronted by a burglar who ran at him brandishing a screwdriver and stabbed him with a kitchen knife. The court of law found him not guilty of any crime.
    As you say, it has to be proportional.
    Shooting unarmed men is not proportional, stabbing someone armed with a stabbing weapon is.
    This thread is about two murders and a miscarriage of justice.
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  13. #363
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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I'm sorry, but quoting Exodus on matters of law and morality, other than for historical interest, is about as helpful as quoting Stalin or the Code of Hammurabi.
    Well, this
    Wherefore if a man, in self-defense, uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repel force with moderation his defense will be lawful,
    is the basis of self defence in English (and Welsh) law.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  14. #364
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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    all of this is focusing too narrowly on the moment of the killings. the way a certain point of view wants it.

    shooting somebody who attacks you with a skateboard, to steal your lunch money, might not be purely disproportional. what is one supposed to do, carry one's own skateboard? or roller skates?

    but if you are under attack for the reason that you are provocatively armed, the calculus changes. morally and legally both.

  15. #365
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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    all of this is focusing too narrowly on the moment of the killings. the way a certain point of view wants it.

    shooting somebody who attacks you with a skateboard, to steal your lunch money, might not be purely disproportional. what is one supposed to do, carry one's own skateboard? or roller skates?

    but if you are under attack for the reason that you are provocatively armed, the calculus changes. morally and legally both.
    If you were not tangled up in a semi auto and its sling, you could defend your self from an attack with a skate board.
    If the gun had a wooden stock he could have used it to parry the skateboard and used the but as a club. But he took aim and fired.
    Don't have a gun or walking stick? Grab the wrist or scateboard wheel and knee the assailant in the nuts. Then kick his ankle out from under

    Arn't what if's fun.

    Even Aquinian agrees that the defence must be proportional.
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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    If you were not tangled up in a semi auto and its sling, you could defend your self from an attack with a skate board.
    If the gun had a wooden stock he could have used it to parry the skateboard and used the but as a club. But he took aim and fired.
    Don't have a gun or walking stick? Grab the wrist or scateboard wheel and knee the assailant in the nuts. Then kick his ankle out from under

    Arn't what if's fun.

    Even Aquinian agrees that the defence must be proportional.
    i don't think "proportional" needs to mean a similar weapon. in fact, i'm sure it doesn't.

    if the guy with the skateboard is physically superior to you, well, sam colt makes you equal. that's what we say in this country, anyway.

    i'm not advocating anything, just suggesting that, within the constitution and laws of this country, it is perfectly possible to render a fair verdict over an act of violence involving a gun. the fact that we frequently fail is down to tampering.

    the question is, what is the context, and is he really trying to kill you. determining intent at the moment of contact is sometimes very difficult. which is why, context matters.

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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    i don't think "proportional" needs to mean a similar weapon. in fact, i'm sure it doesn't.

    if the guy with the skateboard is physically superior to you, well, sam colt makes you equal. that's what we say in this country, anyway.

    i'm not advocating anything, just suggesting that, within the constitution and laws of this country, it is perfectly possible to render a fair verdict over an act of violence involving a gun. the fact that we frequently fail is down to tampering.

    the question is, what is the context, and is he really trying to kill you. determining intent at the moment of contact is sometimes very difficult. which is why, context matters.
    That might apply in our part of the globe, but it does not in mine.
    If I were to defend myself from an unarmed burglar with our chefs knife I would be in trouble. I might get away with using an ash walking stick as a half staff, but I would still be in court if I killed him with it.
    As I have said before,
    The same year(1937), the Home Secretary ruled that self-defence was no longer a suitable reason for applying for a firearm certificate and directed police to refuse such applications on the grounds that "firearms cannot be regarded as a suitable means of protection and may be a source of danger".
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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    yes, nick, i am talking about my part of the globe, the landmass roughly surrounding kenosha wisconsin.

    i am frankly on the side of the u.k. model of laws on firearms. but that is a pipe dream for us.

    my greatest consternation regarding this rittenhouse case is witnessing the degree to which perceptions of our own rules has been warped.

    the rittenhouse verdict could have easily, and more rationally, been "guilty" of some degree of homicide. as well as unlawful weapon possession, reckless endangerment, etc.

    but even otherwise rational people are suggesting that the problem is with our laws, not with our attitudes and behaviors, which have become warped and skewed beyond recognition.

    even in the "old west" of legend, you had to check your guns when you came to town.

    how did we get here? we've been tampered with.

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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Erm interesting be able to come to that decision YES/NO in the heat of the moment.
    exactly my point. we need context clues, both to determine our own behavior, and to judge the actions of others.

    video recording of an assault followed by a shooting tells us only a fraction of what we need to know regarding culpability.

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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    yes, nick, i am talking about my part of the globe, the landmass roughly surrounding kenosha wisconsin.

    i am frankly on the side of the u.k. model of laws on firearms. but that is a pipe dream for us.

    my greatest consternation regarding this rittenhouse case is witnessing the degree to which perceptions of our own rules has been warped.

    the rittenhouse verdict could have easily, and more rationally, been "guilty" of some degree of homicide. as well as unlawful weapon possession, reckless endangerment, etc.

    but even otherwise rational people are suggesting that the problem is with our laws, not with our attitudes and behaviors, which have become warped and skewed beyond recognition.

    even in the "old west" of legend, you had to check your guns when you came to town.

    how did we get here? we've been tampered with.
    From the Oxford shooting thread
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...78#post6572278
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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    no.

    it is deeper than a problem of law-making.

    it is a problem on the level of paradigm. we treat gun rights differently than every other right.

    the assumptions are deeply rooted now. hand-tampered.

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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    no.

    it is deeper than a problem of law-making.

    it is a problem on the level of paradigm. we treat gun rights differently than every other right.

    the assumptions are deeply rooted now. hand-tampered.
    From earlier in the same thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Which brings us back to the point that I have made several times before. The US of A on balance does not care about dead US citizens.
    Nothing will change until enough voters demand change. Well, it was you that bought NZ up as relevant to banning guns.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I dont think that the data supports that
    The share of American households owning at least one firearm has remained relatively steady since 1972, hovering between 37 percent and 47 percent. In 2021, about 42 percent of U.S. households had at least one gun in their possession.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ing-a-firearm/
    By no means a majority. It must be something else.
    Also

    So, what is stopping them?

    I think that it is the broken political system, with the representatives representing their pay masters rather than their constituents. 60% of the voters wanting tougher regulations should be able to get tougher regulations.
    The status quo is not that deeply embedded in the US psyche/
    I suggest follow the money is a more powerful factor.
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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    we treat gun rights differently than every other right
    you can have my one ton diesel pickup truck with a towing capacity of 24,200 pounds in which i drive 99% of the time by myself with no cargo when you prize it from my cold dead hands
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    From earlier in the same thread




    The status quo is not that deeply embedded in the US psyche/
    I suggest follow the money is a more powerful factor.
    wrt that poll graph one could be making an incorrect assumption that “gun laws” are synonomous with laws that result in fewer guns which seems essential to reducing gun related crimes. People could look at the Rittenhouse case and others and say the law is insufficient. I think the status quo is deeply imbedded.

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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    you can have my one ton diesel pickup truck with a towing capacity of 24,200 pounds in which i drive 99% of the time by myself with no cargo when you prize it from my cold dead hands
    you got the 350?

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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    you got the 350?
    my auto dreams tend towards the prius

    sad, bigly
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    you can have my one ton diesel pickup truck with a towing capacity of 24,200 pounds in which i drive 99% of the time by myself with no cargo when you prize it from my cold dead hands
    With US gun laws as they are, I am sure that could be arranged.
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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    my auto dreams tend towards the prius

    sad, bigly
    My auto dream is a Lincoln Continental covertible w a 150 hp turbo diesel. 60 mph is fast enough.

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    Default Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    With US gun laws as they are, I am sure that could be arranged.


    In almost every case of gun deaths discussed here in The Bilge, the principal actors in the event have broken the law. I submit that the shape of laws, if you will permit me to paraphrase you, is of no matter to those who would so willingly break those laws.



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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    In almost every case of gun deaths discussed here in The Bilge, the principal actors in the event have broken the law. I submit that the shape of laws, if you will permit me to paraphrase you, is of no matter to those who would so willingly break those laws.



    Kevin


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    I'll differ just a bit from your opinion there.

    I will agree that no matter what, someone determined to use a firearm to commit violence will. This is true wherever you are.

    The difference in this country is the availability of the firearms and the fact that there are dis-similar laws from state-to-state. We see this in places like Chicago where the gun laws are strict. The guns coming into Chicago supplying those willing to break the law are coming from other places where the laws are much more lax. There have been multiple posts on this subject. As has been said here, no gun, no gun violence. Perhaps the individual will resort to another dangerous weapon if firearms aren't available, but then, those dangerous weapons generally don't allow for the killing of as many, as easily, as quickly. Guns are designed to be efficient killing machines.
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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquinian View Post
    Anyone who still doesn’t realise just how perverted the news coverage was could watch this:

    Correction, people’s inability to differentiate news reporting from commentary provides a perverted perspective. Joe Rogan isn’t a news reporter. or outlet. On the other hand Fox News is a perverted news source.

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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    From earlier in the same thread




    The status quo is not that deeply embedded in the US psyche/
    I suggest follow the money is a more powerful factor.
    say what?

    well, it's not status quo, anyway. our gun sensibilities are rapidly evolving. the rittenhouse trial was a major milestone, another step towards the precipice. another abdication to naked power. "don't bring a skateboard to a gun fight" hahahahaha. wait, it was a gunfight?

    and it is not about money, directly, or even "guns". it's about power and identity.

    the rush to lionize kyle came after he was found not guilty. just like the self-exiled bilge righties came out of the woodwork for a victory lap, after the verdict. it's a power flex, a rally to the banner, a threat and a warning for days to come.

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    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    say what?

    well, it's not status quo, anyway. our gun sensibilities are rapidly evolving. the rittenhouse trial was a major milestone, another step towards the precipice. another abdication to naked power. "don't bring a skateboard to a gun fight" hahahahaha. wait, it was a gunfight?

    and it is not about money, directly, or even "guns". it's about power and identity.

    the rush to lionize kyle came after he was found not guilty. just like the self-exiled bilge righties came out of the woodwork for a victory lap, after the verdict. it's a power flex, a rally to the banner, a threat and a warning for days to come.
    Cui bono?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  34. #384
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    20,991

    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Cui bono?
    by their celebrations you will know them.

    look at our own little space here. which of our ex-members came back to rub noses in the verdict? and what viewpoint do they represent.

    it's not about the money. the verdict is affirmation that people of their (my) tribe have a special franchise on violence, in defense of whatever they (we) decide to defend.

  35. #385
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    59,389

    Default Re: Rittenhouse Verdict Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    by their celebrations you will know them.

    look at our own little space here. which of our ex-members came back to rub noses in the verdict? and what viewpoint do they represent.

    it's not about the money. the verdict is affirmation that people of their (my) tribe have a special franchise on violence, in defense of whatever they (we) decide to defend.
    Was it always thus?
    Was it like that when you were a child/
    In your grandparents time?

    I suspect not.
    So if not, what drove the change?

    Cui bono?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

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