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Thread: Penobscot 13 Build

  1. #1
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    Default Penobscot 13 Build

    I wanted to build a small boat for some time. After receiving plans from Arch Davis, it took another 2 weeks to get my head around the boat terminology and new woodworking language. I didn’t know a garboard from a quarter knee. I knew what a bevel or chamfer is, but it’s called a gain when applied to a plank … why? My confusion slowly gave way to following the instruction sequence a step at a time. Difficult for me since I am one of those people that throws the manual aside when putting something together. Well that attitude had to change. And still I challenged some instruction guidance as you will see.

    My hope is to detail some aspects for other Penobscot builders to follow and also invite comments and advice.

    One of the first things I did differently from the instructions is to use carbon paper to transfer the full scale drawing to the station molds, instead of pricking out the shape through the mylar sheet as given in the instructions. Seems to me as a better method and probably not a new idea.

    Construction of the outer stem is another thing I did differently from the instructions. I used the stem as a mold for the outer stem, instead of making a separate mold that is described much later in the build. It worked very well as shown in the photos below. Note there is no bevel on the stem when using it as the mold, but the bevel is done after the outer stem is finished.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Kunzwerks; 11-18-2021 at 09:22 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Always liked the looks of the Penobscot boats. Good luck with the build!

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    I didn't know there was a 13. I only knew about the 14 and 17. Thanks for posting, and good luck with the build.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Thanks, Dalekidd and WI-Tom, I appreciate any encouragement, since a lot of time is spent pondering how it all goes together.

    Once the strongback is in place, the stem and keel is attached and stringers come next. This is where more pondering happens, as I twist and bend the stringers and wonder how much force to apply without breaking anything. Had to call Arch and verify my work, since all the photos I have seen look like one face of the stringer sits flat on the side of the stem. Thing is, those photos show the stringers after they have been bevelled flush with the stem face, which gave me a false impression. The stringer is actually cut at an acute angle, leaving a diamond shape face to meet up with the stem face. Once secured in place the stringer has about a 45 degree twist to it. The last photo is after the stringers have been bevelled to the stem (again giving the illusion the stringer is not twisted)
    Last edited by Kunzwerks; 11-18-2021 at 06:39 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    This is one of the more complicated joints. Its for the top stringer and seat riser, fitting into the transom. Its a compound angle fit, and even though I managed a good dry fit, once the epoxy was on, everything slips and slides out of alignment. End result was the best I could manage.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Coming along nicely. I started building a P14 late in 2011, building pieces during the fall and winter. The building jig was set up in spring 2012. Construction went on that summer and the boat was done by that fall. I had it rigged for sailing in summer 2013. Other than being slightly shorter, I believe Arch simplified the some aspects of the design a bit to speed up the build. When I built mine I was not new to woodworking but boatbuilding was new to me, so if I managed to complete it, so can anyone. You'll be fine.

    Interesting that you mentioned the laminated outer stem - in the P14 build manual the stem is one of the first things you make, and then you use it as a form for the outer stem. I just checked my photos, it was done while the stem was on the jig with the stringers on but before planking. I remember that being fairly messy, and yes epoxy makes for an amazing lubricant!

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    It's looking good!
    We learn as we go along...and in the end it all comes out good.
    Keep questioning your progress as you move forward... it will help you build a better boat.
    A few sleepless nights are guaranteed.
    Those joints look fine to me.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    With the longitudinal stringers in place the plywood planking comes next. Again, I’m deviating from the instructions by making templates for each strake. I mapped out on paper how the strakes will be cut from the okoume ply and believe I can get away with using 3 sheets of 4’ x 8’, and still only have one scarf per strake. The plans call for 5 sheets. My cost is $150 CDN per sheet from a local supplier, so its why I have chosen to go this route.

    There are caveats though. The transom alone is made up of 3 layers of 6mm (1/4”) ply and would take almost 3/4’s of a sheet. That is not in my 3 sheet plan. So what I did was to use a piece of 1/2” ply (can be non-marine grade) for the transom, leaving enough plywood real estate within the 3 sheets for the third outer layer. But, one has to plan for this early on, since the transom is made early in the construction. Also, it’s doubtful there will be enough ply left over if one is planning on using some for the rudder, centre board, or centre board box.

    If this doesn’t work out as I hope, I can always buy more okoume ply …. Ouch!
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    Last edited by Kunzwerks; 11-24-2021 at 01:51 PM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Progress is continuing … alas slowly. The garboard planks are finally in place and it feels like a small victory. Next is to cut the gain on the forward end of the garboard where it meets the stem.

    I need some help here.

    Those of you that have done lapstrake planking, is the gain cut only on one plank … or is a gain (bevel) also cut on the underside of the next plank so the overlap gains meet? I hope you get my meaning. I believe the instructions are for the gain only on the garboard, but not sure if I’m understanding it correctly.
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    Last edited by Kunzwerks; 12-05-2021 at 03:27 PM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    You cut the gain on both planks, half the depth on each. I think I have some pics of this on my Phoenix build (link in signature).
    Another tip to consider, instead of using staples for your spiling, you can use a hot glue gun. Works very well.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by garyb View Post
    You cut the gain on both planks, half the depth on each. I think I have some pics of this on my Phoenix build (link in signature).
    Another tip to consider, instead of using staples for your spiling, you can use a hot glue gun. Works very well.
    Thanks for the advice, Gary. Appreciate the feedback. BTW, nice build on the Phoenix III and I have workshop envy.
    Last edited by Kunzwerks; 12-05-2021 at 08:21 PM.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Thanks. The Phoenix III was built (besides paint) at the Wind and Oar boat school in Portland, OR. That's the place you are seeing. I'm a volunteer instructor there. Usually we go into classrooms (mostly math classes) at middle/high schools to build boats, but this Phoenix started with high school students in Feb 2020 at the W&O shop. Unfortunately, it was almost immediately shut down due to Covid. So after sitting for 6 months, another instructor and I finished the build. I'm building the Surf Runner at home, and making a dusty mess of everything! :-)
    Last edited by garyb; 12-05-2021 at 11:41 PM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    BTW, I heard we're doing a Penobscot 13 build for an upcoming program, so keep posting your pictures - super helpful for other builders. :-)
    Last edited by garyb; 12-05-2021 at 11:42 PM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    The Penobscot 14 is built with the gains on the lower planks' upper edges only. Easy to do with a rebate plane and 3/4 chisel. Use the plywood layers as a guide. If your gain is 15 inches long, plane each of the 5 layers down over three inches.

    I suppose you could do both edges that meet only halfway deep each, but that would seem harder to do and is not what the instructions say for the 14, anyway, realizing that is not the same boat as your 13 so the instructions could be different.

    (First time poster here. Just finishing up a Penobscot 14 I started last January.)

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Thank you, dt123. I believe the Penobscot 14 build would be the same as the 13, as far as planking is concerned. Will follow your advice (and experience) and cut the gain on one plank only. I had watched a video from OffCenterHarbor.com, where the gain was cut on both strakes. So that got me pondering how to cut the gains. The Penobscot instructions are very good, but Arch’s written style is difficult to get my head around. It’s just me, I’m sure… learning from watching is better for me than reading instructions.
    Last edited by Kunzwerks; 12-06-2021 at 10:51 AM.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    You're welcome. By the time you get to your last (whiskey) plank, it will seem routine, and you will be glad to move on to the next phase.
    Last edited by dt123; 12-06-2021 at 11:51 AM.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    What I did on my last build (first glued lapstrake) was to cut the gain halfway on the bench, epoxy that plank on the hull, and finish cutting the gain to the feather edge after it was installed and the epoxy set...
    That way I avoided having to worry about breaking the feather edge during installation of the plank.
    Worked for me.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Cutting gains on both sides avoids the "feather" edge challenge, but they both work and one side is what the designer suggested so sounds like you have a plan.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Thank you gentlemen for all the input. It’s always good to get some support. I studied the Penobscot plans some more and it is clear the gain is done on one side of the strake … and so with a lot of anxiety, trepidation and nervousness, I managed to get started.

    The first photo is the result from about mid-ship. The idea is too have a flat bevel from the garboard to the next stringer without any gaps. So one bevel on the garboard and another on the stringer so the bevels line up to create a flat surface for the next strake. If your handplane or block plane is properly sharpened, you should get some nice shaving, even from the okoume plywood.
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    Last edited by Kunzwerks; 12-14-2021 at 02:30 AM.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    When I secured the garboards with screws, I found that filling the resulting divot with epoxy was a pain to get flush again. An initial epoxy fill was usually not enough and after sanding, one has to go over them again to fill any remaining voids. Sand some more. The epoxy is hard and the okoume ply is soft, so care needs be taken that you don’t oversand. Also, the epoxy gums up the sandpaper. A tedious process.

    I elected to build some clamps so I won’t have to use screws and save myself from the epoxy sanding torture.

    The remaining strakes are secured in two halves. One half gets glued down first. In this way one doesn’t have to worry about the two halves not lining up from end to end. If the scarf was first glued up on the bench, there is a high probably of misaligning the scarf, even by the smallest fraction and the entire strake would not line up and fit properly.
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    Last edited by Kunzwerks; 12-14-2021 at 02:28 AM.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    clamps look very handy.
    Re: screw holes - you are right about the epoxy sinking down if you go for flush smooth fill. I have found slightly over-filling them with a glob of epoxy and easy fairing mix from some sort of bag is best so you can fill from bottom. Once cured knock it down with Shinto rasp and then sand lightly.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by gray duck View Post
    clamps look very handy.
    Re: screw holes - you are right about the epoxy sinking down if you go for flush smooth fill. I have found slightly over-filling them with a glob of epoxy and easy fairing mix from some sort of bag is best so you can fill from bottom. Once cured knock it down with Shinto rasp and then sand lightly.
    Thanks. The clamps work surprisingly well and didn’t take that long to make. As for knocking down the epoxy, the mistake I made was using left over epoxy from bonding something, not thinking my thickening power has silicon in it. Will fill the remaining holes using the fairing compound instead, which should be easier to sand down.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Those clamps look great and you obviously have a lot of effort invested in them, but that looks like the hard way to me as opposed to screws.

    The easy way to deal with the screw holes is fill them with a blob of epoxy thickened with microballoons. Push the blob in and leave it a little proud with a popsicle stick. About midway through the cure, when the epoxy is about like dried chewing gum, the blob can be trimmed almost flush with the light touch of a chisel. Then when cured, the remaining spot is sanded perfectly flush with just a few strokes. If you miss the midway chiseling step, the microballoons allow you to sand the blob quickly smooth anyway with just a few more strokes.

    Microballoons only as a thickener makes a white spot, OK to paint over. Once you start the interior you will have a lot more screw holes to fill. You can mix in wood flour 50-50 with microballoons to make a brown hole filler you can varnish over with reasonably good cosmetic result. Purists will want you to use wood plugs to fill the holes you varnish over, but I went with the wood flour epoxy method and am totally happy with it.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Thanks dt123. Some good advice. How’s your 14 coming along? Would love to see some pictures.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    That gain you posted a picture of looked great, by the way.

    I wouldn't want to hijack your thread with pictures of my boat, but here is one glamour shot. This is pre-paint so you can see the filled screw holes on the exterior of the hull. The interior is finished all bright.

    unnamed.jpg

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Ah, that’s some craftsmanship … congratulations, well done.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    In post #8, I said I would try to plank the entire hull using only 3 sheets of okoume plywood, instead of the 5 sheets the plans call for.

    I’m happy to say, 3 sheets is more than enough. I had planned the layout carefully, and it was still surprizing to see there was quite a bit leftover. There are 3 larger pieces leftover, that I’m sure I can use for rudder, centreboard, or elsewhere.

    The reason the plans call for 5 sheets, has to do with methodology. In the instructions, the ply sheet is first cut up in long strips with a guesstimate of the strake width, taking into account the curvature of the hull. It’s still a rectangular shape. The strip is positioned on the stringers and using the stringers as a guide, the stake is traced out. Then the final shape of the strake is cut, leaving a tremendous waste of unusable plywood offcuts. This is a case of besides asking “how its done”, is to ask “ why do it this way”. I don’t know, other than personal preference.

    By spiling the strakes, you save using 2 sheets of plywood. Which brings me to another area of saving. Screws.
    The plans call for 700 stainless steel screws of various lengths. With the hull completely planked, I have only used 76 up to this point in the build. Of course, if one leaves all the screws in place for the planking (and why would you) maybe one could come close to using 700 (maybe). The point being, you don’t need 700.

    The money saved from plywood and screws can go a long ways towards rope, hardware, sail, and other miscellaneous items. If I sound a little ticked …. I am. The instructions should reflect a more accurate materiel list. I can understand having extra to account for inevitable wastage, but calling for 67% more plywood, and at least more than double the screws to be purchased by a rank beginner boat builder, …. is being screwed.

    OK, I’m stepping down from the soapbox now.
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    Last edited by Kunzwerks; 02-05-2022 at 07:55 PM.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Looking great so far! You're singin' my song re saving materials. Us po folk gotta save wherever we can. I built our house, and scrounged just about everything to get the job done. I'm planning to build something soon, and will be employing your 'tricks' to keep wood scraps out of the furnace and on the water, where they belong.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Looking good so far. As for materials, 600 screws may be less expensive and quicker to attain for a novice builder than a seasoned woodworker who has metal or wooden clamps built from scrap. Also scribing planks using the method you used, very nice btw, could be outside other folks current cognitive envelope. Just throwing that out here to give future builder a range of ideas to choose from.

    I was so excited building my Penobscot 14 that I used the expensive okume to make my patterns before I realized what I had done, oops. I have some real nice patterns now And there were several missteps with planks along the way. We were hoping for a bright finish for the interior, but different colors from different batches of ply did not look good. Some folks may use the same sheet of ply to get out one plank of the same color, so there's not a mismatch at the scarf, and that indeed burns up a lot of plywood. I eventually went to the method you used to optimize usage of the plywood, and decided to paint the interior. I briefly considered painting just the planks and leaving the stringers bright, but decided that would be a maintenance nightmare, so all the planks and stringers got a coat of epoxy then paint.

    IMG_0076.jpeg

    I deviated from Arch's plans for air compartment bulkheads and put in slatted seats, made from cypress. Bulkhead compartment flotation was substituted with closed cell foam, in the form of spare life jackets and extra seat cushions. The bow, side and stern seats are removable for cleaning and to promote air flow, that eliminated the inspection ports on bulkheads and my concerns of moisture being trapped in those areas. We also scribed the side seats to follow the gunwale, making a nice sweeping curve that I found more pleasing to my eye than the designed straight edge. Here's a picture of ST. JACQUES in "Mess About" mode, all of the gear used for a daily outing.

    IMG_7121.jpeg

    Our build blog: http://smallboatrestoration.blogspot...t-jacques.html

    Looking forward to more great ideas from your build.
    Cheers
    Kent and Skipper
    Small Boat Restoration blog

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by signalcharlie View Post
    Looking good so far. As for materials, 600 screws may be less expensive and quicker to attain for a novice builder than a seasoned woodworker who has metal or wooden clamps built from scrap. Also scribing planks using the method you used, very nice btw, could be outside other folks current cognitive envelope. Just throwing that out there to give future builder a range of ideas to choose from.
    Kent, I have too agree with your comments. My viewpoint was heavily tilted to the economics side of the build. And I also dislike waste or left over materiel that will not get used. I had seen your posts on the St. Jacques build prior to ordering Penobscot 13 plans, and yours along with others have been a great source of information and tips to help me on my build. I too, hope I can add to that information for future builders and suggest alternate methods and techniques to get to the same end result. We all know there are usually several ways to go about woodworking, and I believe it’s good to ask “why do it that way” in addition to finding out “how to do it”. Sometimes the answer is rather surprizing. In the end, it’s up to the person building a boat to decide what they are comfortable with, given their own resources and abilities.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Happiness is a heated shop.
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  32. #32
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    So, here's what I did on my 14 to efficiently cut the planks. I had a roll of 12 inch masking paper left over from the days when I used to paint classic cars I had restored. I would lay a strip of this paper over the gap I was trying to cover with the plank, from one end to where the scarf joint would be, and temporarily secure it with a few widely spaced bits of masking tape. Then I would just cut the paper with scissors a half inch wide of the gap by eyeball, and then use the paper as a template for cutting the plywood. And reuse it mirror image for the other side. The only waste was the half inch overhangs that get cut off perfectly using the designer's marking method off the stringers. I don't know if my paper template method is the same thing as spiling, which is a term I don't understand exactly, but it was easy and very accurate. The planks have to be pretty much perfect or else they won't look right. A 1/8" off or 2 or 3 degrees off somewhere and it will look like crap. The other bit of waste came from the templates not nesting perfectly next to each other. But this was never more than an inch or so.

    My constant fear was of messing up something that caused me to have to buy one more sheet of plywood, in order to use only a foot of it, for example, and have 3'x8' of it left over. Did not happen. Marine plywood is not something you can just easily buy a sheet at a time in central Texas. My initial order had to trucked in from Florida.

    I don't remember the screws as being that expensive, maybe $11 for a box of a 100. I spaced them about 6 inches apart, so 28 per plank, times 12 planks, equals about 350 screws left in the planks. I figure the screws have to add strength when left in, as well, in case I get T-boned by a Jetski some day.
    Last edited by dt123; 01-17-2022 at 04:18 AM.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Spiling is one of those boaty words I learned, that in woodworking is called a template. Your technique is using the paper as a template. BTW, not a bad ideal. Just goes to show (as I’ve said) there’s usually more than one way to accomplish the same end result.

    As for the screws being left in the planks … I didn’t use any for the planks … and the few that were used on the garboards were removed. My belief is that the epoxy lamination to the stringers provides all the strength. There’s a lot of surface area for the bond. I only screwed the planks in at the stem and transom. It’s debatable if the screws along the stringers add anything further, even under destructive loads. In my case the stringers are western red cedar, which is too soft to offer much holding power for securing screws. If the stringers are a harder, denser wood, that can hold a screw securely, then the argument tilts to leaving them in place … if you want insurance on getting hit by a jetski.

    Certainly, leaving the screws in for securing the stringers to the stem and transom ensures the epoxy holds, since they are under tension from being bent and twisted in place, not to mention there is very little surface area for the bond.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    I'm thinking about using Ramboard to make plank patterns. It comes in a roll at building centers, and is a very stiff cardboard. I'm also going to use it to cover my 'boat shop' floor, since my shop is a finished great room in our barn. Management will NOT be happy if I gunk up the floor with epoxy.

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ram-Boar...8200/202088850

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Penobscot 13 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Kunzwerks View Post
    The money saved from plywood and screws can go a long ways towards rope, hardware, sail, and other miscellaneous items. If I sound a little ticked …. I am. The instructions should reflect a more accurate materiel list. I can understand having extra to account for inevitable wastage, but calling for 67% more plywood, and at least more than double the screws to be purchased by a rank beginner boat builder, …. is being screwed.

    OK, I’m stepping down from the soapbox now.
    Stay on it! One of the reasons why I chose the boat that I'm building is that I looked at the layout of strakes and thought... wow. That's a really neat use of plywood -- there was less than a half inch between them at points:



    This is a nearly 16ft boat, and all the planks come out of 4 sheets of plywood (the above duplicated). And it's not particularly narrow, either:

    IMG_8571.jpg
    Daniel

    Building a Campion Apple 16.

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