they don't build em like this anymore

[rayman]

Thia one is for MM, knud danielsen.jpg a sweet little Norwegian build in the 499 class. Built 1967--renamed "Macdili" 1977-Hua Leong 1980-Berjasa 1989.. Prob. broken up now. I was chief engineer in her for a couple of years in the Papua-New Guinea coastal trade when she was Macdili.

[heimlaga]

A relative who was a retired ship design engineer used to proclaim that this generation of ships generally were the most seaworthy and most stable and most fuel efficient and most well handling powered ships ever built. Then came the containers and designers started to compromize all those qualities to make square containers fit inside.
That was his firm oppinion anyway.

[Peerie Maa]

Thia one is for MM, knud danielsen.jpg a sweet little Norwegian build in the 499 class. Built 1967--renamed "Macdili" 1977-Hua Leong 1980-Berjasa 1989.. Prob. broken up now. I was chief engineer in her for a couple of years in the Papua-New Guinea coastal trade when she was Macdili.

A god looking 3/4 deck coaster, but the difference in depth at the break between No 1 and No 2 hold is bigger than usual.

[earling2]

A relative who was a retired ship design engineer used to proclaim that this generation of ships generally were the most seaworthy and most stable and most fuel efficient and most well handling powered ships ever built. Then came the containers and designers started to compromize all those qualities to make square containers fit inside.
That was his firm oppinion anyway.

So what generation would that be? Mid-century?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

She’s nice but I liked this one:

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Talking of container ships and PNG here’s one I made earlier:



Just passed her sixth special survey.

[Paul Pless]

^ running light and fast

footloose and fancy free

[Priscilla]

Always had a soft spot for the Dutch coastal trader.
8DBA68BA-4F80-47B1-A006-050D27519C28.jpeg

[heimlaga]

So what generation would that be? Mid-century?

He talked about ships designed and built between the time when welding technology got past it's childhood problems..... let's say early 50-ies and until ships became container shaped...... let's say mid 60-ies or early 70-ies.

[earling2]

He talked about ships designed and built between the time when welding technology got past it's childhood problems..... let's say early 50-ies and until ships became container shaped...... let's say mid 60-ies or early 70-ies.

So moving from nostalgic gracefulness to modern brutalism and efficiency

[Peerie Maa]

So moving from nostalgic gracefulness to modern brutalism and efficiency

3/4 deck coasters predated welding, so heimlaga's mate will have been discussing the motor ships that he knew, rather than the earlier steamers.
The break in the main structural deck was complex to build, used a lot of steel and wasted volume and was not easy to maintain. All expense to be avoided if possible. Later equivalents were flush decked, using a different solution to the problem that the 3/4 deck was developed to solve.

[Stiletto]

Later equivalents were flush decked, using a different solution to the problem that the 3/4 deck was developed to solve.

What was that problem?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

What was that problem?

Keeping the tonnage on which port dues, canal dues and, in the case of Britain, light dues, were paid, down to the lowest figure for a given cargo capacity and, in later years, keeping that tonnage inside a paragraph in the manning regulations. The main paragraphs were at 499 tons and 1599 tons.

[Stiletto]

Thankyou Andrew.

[rayman]

Andrew, I was told by our charterer that the deep shelter deck was to accomodate two containers across #1 hold and the ship used as a feeder when there was money in the return of these new fangled containers when empty. I have sailed in quite a few European built coasters and the Dutch built are among the best, espcialy the ones with family accom. Dad skipper son or daughter mate or engineer, mum cook and full bridge control.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Andrew, I was told by our charterer that the deep shelter deck was to accomodate two containers across #1 hold and the ship used as a feeder when there was money in the return of these new fangled containers when empty. I have sailed in quite a few European built coasters and the Dutch built are among the best, espcialy the ones with family accom. Dad skipper son or daughter mate or engineer, mum cook and full bridge control.

I think that’s likely, and I agree the “Groningen” coasters with their family crews, curtains, and plants in pots were lovely and well kept.

[rayman]

Stiletto, in case you are not aware, "Zephyr 2" had at least 10 owners in her 50 plus years of service but never had a name change. When I knew her she was "Mat 1" belonged to a Mr Mat a trader of Betio, capitol of the Island of Tarewa. When Mr Mat passed away in 1998, the ship was left at anchor off the main wharf where she sank and remains to this day. At that time I was sailing with Nauru Pacific line and Betio was a regular port of call. Andrew, what name is that ship you have put up (PNG)

[kbowen]

Thia one is for MM, knud danielsen.jpg a sweet little Norwegian build in the 499 class. Built 1967--renamed "Macdili" 1977-Hua Leong 1980-Berjasa 1989.. Prob. broken up now. I was chief engineer in her for a couple of years in the Papua-New Guinea coastal trade when she was Macdili.

Years ago I watched a center-island, dual boom ship unloading enormous rolls of paper at the Chicago Tribune press building when it was downtown along the river.. One boom was fixed over the dock and the other over the hold. There were two rigs like this one fore and one aft, and clearly the two crane operators had two levels of experience: One of the cranes would get these rolls of paper swinging back and forth and the dockhands had a helluva time. These rolls were about 6' in diameter, and had to be tons. But the other crane operator controlled the two winches so well that the loads came straight out of the hold, swung gracefully over the dock, and came down with no swing. I absolutely have the greatest admiration for anyone who has mastered his job, no matter what it is.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Years ago I watched a center-island, dual boom ship unloading enormous rolls of paper at the Chicago Tribune press building when it was downtown along the river.. One boom was fixed over the dock and the other over the hold. There were two rigs like this one fore and one aft, and clearly the two crane operators had two levels of experience: One of the cranes would get these rolls of paper swinging back and forth and the dockhands had a helluva time. These rolls were about 6' in diameter, and had to be tons. But the other crane operator controlled the two winches so well that the loads came straight out of the hold, swung gracefully over the dock, and came down with no swing. I absolutely have the greatest admiration for anyone who has mastered his job, no matter what it is.

It’s called “Union purchase”. Standard procedure in well run ships at one time.

[Peerie Maa]

What was that problem?

It was more a matter of controlling trim. If the No 1 hold was too big so that it could not be filled without the trim going bow down, a bulk cargo like grain could shift and hazard the ship.
In order to avoid that happening with a flush deck coaster, they were built with an extra deep double bottom in No 1 hold, so that the depth of the hold would be equivalent to the old version.

[MoritzSchwarzer]

A relative who was a retired ship design engineer used to proclaim that this generation of ships generally were the most seaworthy and most stable and most fuel efficient and most well handling powered ships ever built. Then came the containers and designers started to compromize all those qualities to make square containers fit inside.
That was his firm oppinion anyway.

Which is a nice thought, but complete nonsense. 3/4 deckers were, as pointed out above, designed to maximize for arcane tonnage rules. The resulting ships are less than ideal under most other considerations. For example the recessed deck makes the ship less seaworthy compared to a flush decker because the waist fills with green water much easier, which in turn reduces stability and makes the ship more hazardous for the crew to work. Point being that ship design is, and had always been, a bundle of compromise. Containers may have "ruined" the last vestiges of a design language left over from the age of sail. But the cold hard fact is that containers are cheaper and more efficient than break bulk shipping, by a wide margin.

And quite independent of what type of cargo you're designing for, we know more about hydrodynamics, dynamic stability, and actual sea state conditions out at sea than we did 70 years ago.

Nostalgia, humanity's most toxic impulse.

[Peerie Maa]

I don't think that it was about tonnage, I do know that it was about controlling trim.
Stability and Freeboard regs will have ensured a safe ship even when shipping seas. The presence of the focsl will have reduced any green water coming aboard, a safety feature lost with modern flush decked ships.