Tyranny? Or The Reason The UK Has Very Low Gun Crime/Injury/Deaths?

[isla]

NRA heads would be exploding reading this report. I'm sure they would argue that this was not "a huge hoard", but for most Brits it is. Gives you some idea of just how strict our gun legislation is. (Opens can of worms, runs for cover )

A firearms expert caught with a huge hoard of weapons, including a sub-machine gun, at his Kirkcudbrightshire cottage has been jailed for five years.
Simon Churchman, 63, was charged after police made the discovery in March 2018.
He admitted a total of six charges of possessing weapons and ammunition earlier this year.
A judge at the High Court in Livingston told him they were "serious offences" which required a jail term.
As well as the sub-machine gun, police found seven air guns, a shotgun, a rifle and more than 600 rounds of ammunition at Churchman's Twynholm home - all of them without the necessary certificates.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...tland-59076268

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Why Livingston?

Long way from Kirkcudbright.

[isla]

Why Livingston?

Long way from Kirkcudbright.

I think it's because Dumfries and Galloway doesn't currently have a high court, so cases are sent to wherever can accommodate them.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

On a point of trivia, Scots law on air guns is different to English law on air guns.

In England and Wales an air gun with a muzzle velocity lower than 12fps does not need a license if used on private property, but must not be carried in public without a case.

[RedBoatFl]

Unregistered "subgun" is 10 years in a Federal Prison.
Airguns being illegal is a joke.
Shotgun and rifle require no criminal or mental issues.
600 rds ammo is an afternoon at the range.
Real spooky. USA has laws different from other countries.
That isn't really a surprise.

[Peerie Maa]

Airguns being illegal is a joke.

Really?

Abstract

Modern air rifles are very powerful and potentially dangerous, yet they are sold without a license because they are considered toys. We report on 16 patients who were shot with air rifles. Nine of these patients were treated in the last 3 years. Seven patients sustained injuries to the chest and upper back. The BB (ball bearing) penetrated the aorta of two patients, one of whom died. One of two patients shot in the abdomen had injuries to the iliac artery and the colon.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...22346896908404

[Paul Pless]

Airguns being illegal is a joke.

the uk citizenry is not to be trusted to act responsibly and safely with bb guns without governmental oversite

[Gordon Bartlett]

On a point of trivia, Scots law on air guns is different to English law on air guns.

In England and Wales an air gun with a muzzle velocity lower than 12fps does not need a license if used on private property, but must not be carried in public without a case.

What is fps? Over here that would be "feet per second". If that's the case, something's wrong here. At 12 feet per second muzzle velocity, the BB would roll out of the barrel and fall to the ground.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

What is fps? Over here that would be "feet per second". If that's the case, something's wrong here. At 12 feet per second muzzle velocity, the BB would roll out of the barrel and fall to the ground.

Foot pounds. If you are a grey squirrel, “That will blow your head ​clean off.”

[Paul Pless]

...

[Peerie Maa]

What is fps? Over here that would be "feet per second". If that's the case, something's wrong here. At 12 feet per second muzzle velocity, the BB would roll out of the barrel and fall to the ground.

BBs here use plastic balls, most airguns use waisted lead pellets or darts. THe upper limit is 12 foot-pounds or 1 joule in metric.

[birlinn]

Scots law was brought in after a two year old was shot dead in 2005, and a 32 year old killed by a drunken friend in 2006. Most air rifles over here do not fire BBs, but shaped lead pellets and can be lethal.
Airguns are not illegal in Scotland. You want an airgun? no problem, just get a licence. It just might be a problem if you have a history of violence or schizophrenia.
I gather that low powered airguns can have their power doubled by kits sold on line for around £35.

[CWSmith]

NRA heads would be exploding reading this report.

You could sell tickets to an event like that. I'd buy one.

[Andrew2]

The UK laws were rushed in after a nutter killed a bunch of people. Member of a gun club, but noticed as 'odd'. Quite rare event, but guv 'had to do something'.

Such events are daily in the States, but somehow nobody is interested in doing anything about it.


Edit: In Scotland, does he serve the full five years, or just half, as in UK? (not counting good behaviour etc)

[birlinn]

Scotland is still part of the UK, Andrew, but we are working on it!

[lupussonic]

The UK laws were rushed in after a nutter killed a bunch of people. Member of a gun club, but noticed as 'odd'. Quite rare event, but guv 'had to do something'.

Such events are daily in the States, but somehow nobody is interested in doing anything about it.


Edit: In Scotland, does he serve the full five years, or just half, as in UK? (not counting good behaviour etc)

Micheal Ryan or Raoul Moat? I can't remember many others.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Michael Ryan was the Hungerford killer. Law changed to ban centre fire rifles and pump action shotguns, 1987.

Thomas Hamilton was the gun club member who killed children with his legally held pistol at Dunblane. Handguns banned from private ownership, no exceptions. 1996.

I was a handgun enthusiast and a gun club member up to that morning. I vowed I would never pick one up again and I never have.

Raoul Moat - sawn off shotgun, three deaths, 2010.

All three killed themselves.

[Gerarddm]

Firearms worship, along with slavery, are the ur-sins of the USA.

[isla]

I think this is our most recent incident (August). They are very few and far between thankfully. This one used a shotgun.

Jake Davison shot and killed five people, including a three-year-old girl and his own mother, in a 12-minute attack in Plymouth on August 12.

A member of Devon and Cornwall Police is being investigated over the decision to issue a firearms licence to Plymouth shooter, Jake Davison, prior to him going on the rampage, the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) has announced.
The 22-year-old shot dead five people, including a three-year-old girl, before turning the gun on himself in August.

It later emerged that Davison, who was originally issued with a shotgun licence in 2017, had it revoked in 2020 after launching an unprovoked assault on two teenagers.
But Davison, who had a history of violence and mental health issues, was handed back his licence after completing a brief probation course.
The police watchdog has launched a gross misconduct investigation against the staff member responsible for issuing and returning the firearms licence.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ymouth-gumans/

[Peerie Maa]

Micheal Ryan or Raoul Moat? I can't remember many others.

The non terrorist killing sprees, Micheal Ryan carried out Hungerford:

Date	Name	Location	Deaths	Injuries	Notes

19 August 1987	Hungerford massacre	Hungerford, England	16	15	A spree shooting/murder–suicide. Led to the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988.
13 March 1996	Dunblane massacre	Dunblane, Scotland	17	15	A school shooting/murder–suicide. Deadliest mass shooting in UK history.
2 June 2010	Cumbria shootings	Cumbria, England	12	11	A killing spree/murder–suicide.

This was Raol Moat

2010 Northumbria Police manhunt
Location	Tyne and Wear and Northumberland, England, UK
Date	3–9 July 2010
Attack type	Shootings, manhunt
Weapons	Sawn-off shotgun
Deaths	2 (including the perpetrator)
Injured	2
Perpetrator	Raoul Moat

[offbelayknife]

Big bore airguns are about as powerful as a muzzle loader. Nothing to play around with.

Do you know what resulted in them being found? Mouthing off at the pub? I can't imagine getting away with going to the range with an illegal gun over there.

[Peerie Maa]

Do you know what resulted in them being found? Mouthing off at the pub? I can't imagine getting away with going to the range with an illegal gun over there.

From an earlier report on the BeeB

Lili Prais, defending, said: "His position is that the item was purchased in the 1980s in Tottenham Court Road in London and was bought as a 'blank'."


<snip>
The court heard how police had called at Churchman's detached farm cottage on an unrelated matter before finding a "workshop" upstairs.

[AndyG]

Re: the Cumbrian shootings.

He was 'found dead' by the police. Did he kill himself with his own gun, or...some other event?

I shall not say more. But I know what I heard from extremely good sources.

Andy

[skuthorp]

Seem like the most economical solution to me Andy.

[Andrew2]

Scotland is still part of the UK, Andrew, but we are working on it!

My bad, meant England

[Peerie Maa]

Re: the Cumbrian shootings.

He was 'found dead' by the police. Did he kill himself with his own gun, or...some other event?

I shall not say more. But I know what I heard from extremely good sources.

Andy

I do remember that the police were criticized for not getting close to Bird
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/...-response-bird

The armed response teams, who had been authorised to kill, were joined by firearms officers from the Civil Nuclear constabulary at nearby Sellafield. Mackey said that officers were on the scene within minutes, but that "at no stage did any officer have a chance to end this any sooner" and that due to Bird's local knowledge of back roads none were able to catch up with him before he took his own life.
<snip>
Once the alarm was raised, an extra 10 armed officers were made ready for deployment from Northumbria, Lancashire and North Yorkshire police forces. RAF helicopters were drafted in for a "massive land and air search".

Ballistics, forensics and the autopsy will have settled the suicide question.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

In reading the accounts of British “shooting sprees” I find myself thinking that:

They were each perpetrated by a single man with an unhappy sex life.

They were not very different to the accounts that I have read of similar events in the USA.

The différence seems to be that we quietly repealed the section in our Bill of Rights that conferred the right to keep and bear arms upon “The King’s subjects, being Protestant” and we have followed that up more recently by increasing the restrictions on gun ownership.

I don’t see much else that is different.

[Andrew2]

There is some difference, Andrew. The States has a tradition of backwoodsmanship and hunting, along with the cowboy myths

[Peerie Maa]

There is some difference, Andrew. The States has a tradition of backwoodsmanship and hunting, along with the cowboy myths

The cowboy myths is the only relevant bit
Bird will have had licences for shot and .22 guns for rough shooting duck, pigeon and rabbits. Not "backwoodsmanship" but rough shooting over farmland and the fells.

[WI-Tom]

the uk citizenry is not to be trusted to act responsibly and safely with bb guns without governmental oversite

They should follow the lead of the "responsible" U.S. citizenry, eh?

24 school shootings in 2021 so far, with 6 dead (4 of them children) and 34 injured.

And 230 mass shootings, with 482 people dead and 1,927 injured.

Sorry. As another poster said early in this thread, it's "spooky." Except they meant gun regulation is spooky, when really it's the LACK of regulation that's disturbing.

Tom

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Guns are not rare in Britain. I live in a Suffolk village. There are two full service gunsmiths within a ten mile radius of my house. One was building a full bore hunting rifle to a customer’s exact specification when I last called in. I have friends who hold Section 5 licenses - they are licensed to own semi-automatic rifles.

We use the term “hunting” for pursuing foxes (or, these days, not pursuing foxes) with dogs, and we call hunting deer with a rifle “Stalking”. Plenty of it goes on. It’s perfectly legal. We use the term “shooting” to mean shooting driven game birds with shotguns and the term “rough shooting” to mean walking up game or vermin with a shotgun. These are everyday winter activities in the British countryside. And then there is wildfowling… again with shotguns.

People collect old guns. If you have a rook rifle that hasn’t been converted to .410 you are sitting on something that many will covet.

It’s very easy to get a shotgun certificate. You just need a secure cabinet for the guns and another for the cartridges and not too much of a criminal record.

But what we no longer tolerate is the ownership of centre fire rifles unless you stalk deer with them and hand guns are only permitted on the premises of gun clubs which have shooting ranges - again, very common.

I don’t think anyone can really claim that their freedoms are being infringed by a tyrannical Government. Do you?

[Andrew2]

Vets are allowed handguns too.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

the uk citizenry is not to be trusted to act responsibly and safely with bb guns without governmental oversite

The US citizenry clearly do not act responsibly and safely with any guns and their government has given up.

We don’t have “bb guns”. I have a couple of air rifles and an air pistol.

[Peerie Maa]

the uk citizenry is not to be trusted to act responsibly and safely with bb guns without governmental oversite

Leave P P alone, he is having a bad few weks.

[birlinn]

Guns are not rare in Britain. I live in a Suffolk village. There are two full service gunsmiths within a ten mile radius of my house. One was building a full bore hunting rifle to a customer’s exact specification when I last called in. I have friends who hold Section 5 licenses - they are licensed to own semi-automatic rifles.

We use the term “hunting” for pursuing foxes (or, these days, not pursuing foxes) with dogs, and we call hunting deer with a rifle “Stalking”. Plenty of it goes on. It’s perfectly legal. We use the term “shooting” to mean shooting driven game birds with shotguns and the term “rough shooting” to mean walking up game or vermin with a shotgun. These are everyday winter activities in the British countryside. And then there is wildfowling… again with shotguns.

People collect old guns. If you have a rook rifle that hasn’t been converted to .410 you are sitting on something that many will covet.

It’s very easy to get a shotgun certificate. You just need a secure cabinet for the guns and another for the cartridges and not too much of a criminal record.

But what we no longer tolerate is the ownership of centre fire rifles unless you stalk deer with them and hand guns are only permitted on the premises of gun clubs which have shooting ranges - again, very common.

I don’t think anyone can really claim that their freedoms are being infringed by a tyrannical Government. Do you?

Not sure if you are right about hand guns.
A pal of mine was in a gun club, target shooting with a single shot .22 pistol. This was banned, along with all other hand guns.
I believe UK Olympic pistol shooters have to train abroad- can someone confirm?