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Thread: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

  1. #1
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    Default The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Hey all,

    Brand spankin' new to the forum but have consumed a small library worth of books and posts over the course of the past year. I've never actually sailed a boat before, but it is the only thing I think about doing these days. I have a cedar strip canoe under my belt and I'm looking to lock in a design that will be my first. I know that this is probably a good decade out with the way things go in life. But I think its valuable to lock in on one now and obsess as I do until I realize the dream.

    So after a lot of reading and researching, I think I've narrowed down what I want to a pretty realistic short-list. Of course when the seed of this first got planted I immediately went to the 30 footers and dreams of sleeping for nights on end in a true cruiser, but I've managed to talk myself back down to reality. Here's what I'm looking for in my first boat:
    1. Day tripper, maybe the occasional overnight, but unlikely. I don't need tons of storage for kit. I would happily sacrifice that for a positive buoyance boat I think.
    2. Trailerable. I need to store this out of the water for a lot of reasons so it needs to have a beam under 8' and the lighter the better.
    3. Relatively newb-friendly. I'm a faster learner, and expect to do a lot of classes and rentals between now and launch, but I still would like something that instills a newcomer with some confidence.
    4. I really really want it to have the classic clinker planking. I could be convinced to forego this for extremely good reasons, but ideally I would want something in this style or at the very least something that mimics it.


    And with that I've narrowed my search down, I believe, to the following (in no real particular order):
    • Hvalsoe 16 or 18 - I have read that the building is a bit tricky on these, but they look and sound like a great option.
    • Arctic Tern - Sounds like a very stable boat and quick to launch which I like.
    • Calendar Islands Yawl - I'm not a huge fan of the Yawl looks, but I understand its a great rig so would be willing to give that a shot. I've read nothing but great things about this design.
    • Elfyn - I don't know if this one has flotation tanks in it, which is a little concerning. I'm just not really sure how important those are in smaller boats.
    • Ness Yawl - I absolutely love the look of this one and I read it can be rigged with a Gunter sloop which sounds ideal to me.


    So does anyone have experience with any of these or can offer any insights on pros v. cons with them? I would love to hear any and all opinions on the matter! Thank you so much in advance, I'm so excited to start diving into this more!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    You should also add the Caledonia Yawl to your list. It's no more difficult to build than the Ness Yawl, just a bit larger. Take a look at this thread:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...l-vs-Ness-Yawl

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Plenty of threads here on Ilur.
    A very capable and beautiful boat.
    You may want to add it to your list.

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Building a classic shaped hull using modern materials such as plywood and good glue is not too hard. I am now building my third boat (a Caledonia Yawl) and if I can do it anyone can!! If you do choose this style of construction there are 3 key points worth following:
    a) use good marine grade ply which will plane well & bend well - I use Brunyzeel ply made by Joubert
    b) use a very good glue - I use Wests epoxy - not easy but it does stick & stay stuck (so far)
    c) learn, learn, learn - find people who have done this before such as John Brooks, Iain Oughtred, Geoff Kerr. imho Geoffs videos on OCH are one of my goto sources of information. I'm also very lucky to have a neighbour who has built 13 boats.

    My next build (be aware once started it is difficult to stop) is likely to be either a Somes Sound 12 1/2 (one of the most beautiful boats I have ever seen) or a Vivier Jewell which looks good and also looks intensely practical.

    Have fun Regards Neil

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    I concur with what Neil said, although I use Joubert Okoume ply and System 3 epoxy, also quality grade.
    Oughtred has an excellent book on building ply-epoxy-lapstrake which is a must have and will save you much grief, available from WB Store.

    https://www.woodenboatstore.com/coll...uilding-manual

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Quote Originally Posted by timo4352 View Post
    Plenty of threads here on Ilur.
    A very capable and beautiful boat.
    You may want to add it to your list.
    It absolutely was on my list, Vivier has an awesome classic working boat look to his designs. I only took it off because I liked the lines of these other designs a bit better.

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryLL View Post
    You should also add the Caledonia Yawl to your list. It's no more difficult to build than the Ness Yawl, just a bit larger. Take a look at this thread:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...l-vs-Ness-Yawl
    Another great suggestion that was on my original longer list. I think a smaller boat is actually more in line with what I'm looking for which is why I leaned more to the Calendar Islands.

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Some of these are available as pre-cut kits. If you want to simplify the process and speed it up quite a bit, that's the way to go. Beyond that, anyone of them would be a satisfying boat to sail. Just keep in mind that all boats shrink when you put them in the water (that is, it sure seems like it when you push off) -- so you'll never regret building the bigger option. Additionally, the longer, beamier boats are generally much more forgiving of newbie errors.

    So don't sweat the choice too much. Order some plans and start building.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    One note for the OP - with the use of hatches, positive flotation is also used for storage. You’re giving up nothing in terms of storage by adding flotation.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Could I point you in the direction of George Whistock's #119 and the slightly longer #146. I thought I'd made up my mind until I came across these designs, and my criteria (and experience) was pretty much the same as yours. As a bonus, George is an active and helpful member of this forum, under the name Debenriver.

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    I'd also second the Vivier Ilur, from a kit (the jig and boat kinda slots together super fast) and rig it with the single balanced lug sail to keep things simple, quick to rig and manageable when you start.

    It's got buoyancy, unrivalled sub floor storage for oars/ anchor, stability with a bit extra beam, more freeboard to keep the gunwale clear as it heels and looks great with clinker laps. Easy to sleep on (center thwart is removable). Plenty of builds on here to look at. It really is the pack leader at the minute as an overall package. It gives up a few feet of waterline to longer skinnier boats but you will be happier in a shorter wider more stable boat especially learning to sail. You won't outgrow it. On the East coast of the USA the wind blows, that makes a wider, heavier, deeper boat a better boat, like the Ilur.

    Clint Chase supplies the kits in the USA.

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Yes, it can be windy in the northeast:
    36FC27FE-DDDF-48F4-92CD-2B75F4875EAE.jpg
    A few images from similar perspectives which should give a sense of the differences in size/volume of the IO boats. A Ness Yawl:
    7584B12A-1FCC-47A5-BC03-CA6CEBE71543.jpg

    the Arctic Tern:
    3A3D4A51-9DC2-4F0E-BDBF-17DB03044EB5.jpg
    and Caledonia Yawl:
    483D672A-C8E2-4D45-B97D-519A93B89EA7.jpg
    Similar work involved to build any of these, which is to say considerable, but within reach for a first time builder, especially if using a kit. Good luck with the choosing, you have many excellent options.

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    John I have wondered what Ilur would be like drawn to 18ft LOA. Same scantlings, same displacement, just with slightly longer legs/ displacement top end speed. D'ya think she'd loose anything? Maybe the displacement to length change would make her less substantial. More windage I guess rowing. Often magic occurs in boat design at a set length then longer or shorter is still good but less exceptional. 'You ever pondered it?

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    I have. You may be right about the balance of goodness to magic with such a stretch, but I think it would be a worthy experiment. It would almost certainly become a lot of boat to row, at least single handed, if stretched. I have also wondered if the Kernic could be “Ilurized” with regard to interior furniture and gear storage, to optimize her for dinghy cruising rather than team/program activities.
    Last edited by John hartmann; 10-28-2021 at 08:51 AM. Reason: Clarity

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Quote Originally Posted by zlehmann View Post
    It absolutely was on my list, Vivier has an awesome classic working boat look to his designs. I only took it off because I liked the lines of these other designs a bit better.
    The 'look' of the lines is also important to me and that's why I built a Hvalsoe13 instead of the14' Ilur. John Hartmann and I live close by each other, built our boats at the same time and had a joint launching of them. All said and done, the Ilur is a much stronger sailer then the Hvalsoe13 although the Hvalsoe rows better. The Ilur, although only 6" longer then the Hvalsoe13 (13'6"), it has a huge interior volume in comparison. I don't know about the Hvalsoe18, but the Hvalsoe16 does not have floatation. Also, the Ilur comes with extensive instructions where the Hvalsoe comes with just the plans. I assume you will be sailing the waters of New York Harbor? The Ilur would be better suited to handle any ship wakes you come across.
    The look of the lines count, but consider your needs first.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Beg, borrow or steal a small dinghy, join local club and go do some sailing.

    That way, once you have built the boat you'll not be a newbie.
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    John I have wondered what Ilur would be like drawn to 18ft LOA. Same scantlings, same displacement, just with slightly longer legs/ displacement top end speed. D'ya think she'd loose anything? Maybe the displacement to length change would make her less substantial. More windage I guess rowing. Often magic occurs in boat design at a set length then longer or shorter is still good but less exceptional. 'You ever pondered it?
    I just noticed that a stretched Ilur makes an appearance in Roger Barnes' recent video. It's only on a trailer, and not much info, but it has been done.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-jFulha69Q

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    My Hvalsoe 18 is glued lap with bulkheads and flotation. Eric’s HV16 is cedar lapstrake. Any of these boats could be built with cedar or plywood. You just have to do your homework first.

    The 18 is A LOT larger than the 16. They’re very different fellows when it comes to waterline, wetted surface, and displacement.

    BTW, Eric has a planked up glued lap HV18 in his shop. It’s intended to be his own personal boat, but I bet he’d be game to discuss finishing it for someone who would like to have a kickass sail and oar boat for their own use.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    [QUOTE=rgthom;6550786]I just noticed that a stretched Ilur makes an appearance in Roger Barnes' recent video. It's only on a trailer, and not much info, but it has been done.

    8E8D4B44-65B0-4205-8DDD-C414A1E85BD3.jpg

    I wonder if it is this boat?
    Last edited by John hartmann; 10-28-2021 at 11:16 AM. Reason: Clarity

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Have you considered any of John Welsford's designs? You've got some great choices so far.

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Quote Originally Posted by zlehmann View Post
    Hey all,

    B. I've never actually sailed a boat before, but it is the only thing I think about doing these days.
    Get yourself out on some sailing boats and see what different boat types have to offer before making an uninformed decision.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    Get yourself out on some sailing boats and see what different boat types have to offer before making an uninformed decision.
    Or build a cheap "temporary" boat to learn on. By the time you are comfortable sailing the boat, you'll know much more about what you actually want in a boat.

    You can build plenty of flat-bottomed simple boats very cheaply, and quickly, and they sail well enough to teach you a lot. Jim Michalak's "Mayfly" design is popular in 12', 14', and 16' lengths. Balance lug rig, very popular in many of today's small boats, especially cruisers and relaxed daysailers. You might even be able to do a little "clinker" styling by breaking the side panels into planks, gluing them up on the flat, and installing as a single panel. Here's a self-designed little skiff my brother built that way:

    024.jpg

    I sailed the Calendar Islands Yawl prototype/first build, and it's a very nice boat. It is definitely set up to optimize sailing. While it's possible to row it, the freeboard is a bit high, and the oars are long. Rowing it would not be all that fun, though certainly a practical auxiliary mode--just not a pleasure rower like my Whitehall-based design.

    Tom
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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    I would echo the call to get some sailing experience before committing to any particular design.There isn't any design that has been mentioned so far which is devoid of merits-the challenge is to find the one that has the combination of strong traits that allies best with the type of sailing envisaged.Which is the best argument for getting afloat in a range of boats to explore the spectrum of small boat sailing.

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    But I think its valuable to lock in on one now and obsess as I do until I realize the dream.
    This line from the OP needs a comment.

    Probably best to keep an open mind, because the more you look, the more you will realize that every design requires compromise. The design you think is perfect from every angle today will seem wanting after looking at 50 other designs. Sorta like picking a girlfriend.

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryLL View Post
    This line from the OP needs a comment.

    Probably best to keep an open mind, because the more you look, the more you will realize that every design requires compromise. The design you think is perfect from every angle today will seem wanting after looking at 50 other designs. Sorta like picking a girlfriend.
    The grass is always greener ....
    -Dave

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Quote Originally Posted by zlehmann View Post
    I've never actually sailed a boat before...
    Boring reality check, here...

    It might be worth buying a (large) dinghy and try sailing first. In the UK a boat like a Wayfarer can be obtained for ~£1500 and would give you vital experience on the water and - if needed - the opportunity to camp overnight on it. If the bug bites, then, yes, go build. But you'd already have a vessel you could enjoy while the months and months of work building gets underway.

    I'd love to build a boat, and there are many that are on my wishlist. But I accept that I don't have the storage for one, and I see that fifteen minutes with a pressure washer gets my (plastic) boat ready for the season.

    Andy, peddling harsh reality.
    "In case of fire ring Fellside 75..."

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    There are builders and there are sailers. I am a builder, so as soon as my current boat is finished it will be sold off. Then I'll be off on a new amazing build adventure.
    Last edited by TerryLL; 10-28-2021 at 09:37 PM.

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    I will second or third the advice to get some sailing experience. Even finding a friend with a sailboat and learning on theirs will be better than nothing. Reason being, you are going to spend a lot of time building your boat. If you've no experience sailing, that boat will get dinged, dented, and otherwise un-prettied, the first few times you sail. Such incidents usually happen near the dock, where there isn't a lot of room to maneuver and things happen quickly. You need to have an idea of what to do in those close quarters situations.

    I will also second or third the advice to use THE BEST materials you can afford. You could build any of the boats on your list with underlayment and polyester. You will spend a little money, a bunch of time, and have a boat that lasts a few seasons before it starts to deteriorate. Or you could spend a bunch of money and a bunch of time, and have a boat that will last many, many seasons, get passed on to the grandkids, that sort of thing. Either way, cheap materials or expensive materials, it takes the same amount of time to build the boat. After all the time and effort you will put into a build, it just makes sense to use the good stuff. And, longevity aside, the quality materials are nicer to work with. Good marine ply planes well, is less likely to crack or break, and finishes well. A quality epoxy that does not blush badly is far more preferable to cheaper products that blush like crazy.

    Keep us posted on your design choice, sailing progress, and your build.

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    One note for the OP - with the use of hatches, positive flotation is also used for storage. You’re giving up nothing in terms of storage by adding flotation.
    Great point, I hadn't thought of that.

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    Boring reality check, here...

    It might be worth buying a (large) dinghy and try sailing first. In the UK a boat like a Wayfarer can be obtained for ~£1500 and would give you vital experience on the water and - if needed - the opportunity to camp overnight on it. If the bug bites, then, yes, go build. But you'd already have a vessel you could enjoy while the months and months of work building gets underway.

    I'd love to build a boat, and there are many that are on my wishlist. But I accept that I don't have the storage for one, and I see that fifteen minutes with a pressure washer gets my (plastic) boat ready for the season.

    Andy, peddling harsh reality.
    The old salty reality checks are exactly what I'm looking for. I was thinking about doing this as well. For me I think right now its more about building something than getting on the water. Like I said, this is a long term plan. I don't expect this project to be done for another decade most likely.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    A decade? Why? Your boat will take a year, or maybe two, to build.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    Boring reality check, here...

    It might be worth buying a (large) dinghy and try sailing first. In the UK a boat like a Wayfarer can be obtained for ~£1500 and would give you vital experience on the water and - if needed - the opportunity to camp overnight on it. If the bug bites, then, yes, go build. But you'd already have a vessel you could enjoy while the months and months of work building gets underway.

    I'd love to build a boat, and there are many that are on my wishlist. But I accept that I don't have the storage for one, and I see that fifteen minutes with a pressure washer gets my (plastic) boat ready for the season.

    Andy, peddling harsh reality.
    I was tempted to post a recommendation to buy something like a Wayfarer if the OP found sailing an enjoyable pastime.I refrained because it would probably sail rings around some of the other boats mentioned and lead to disappointment if the original plan were pursued.For a first time builder of a clinker hull,longer is probably better than shorter as there is a bit more room to lose minor discrepancies.A very well respected boatbuilder said years ago that a short stem dinghy with clinker planking is one of the most challenging boats to build.The challenge diminishes with a bit more length,but the weight of the boat doesn't.Which supports the notion that any choice of boat is the result of a bundle of compromises-comfort,ease of handling ashore,performance potential and cost.

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike-in-Suffolk View Post
    A decade? Why? Your boat will take a year, or maybe two, to build.
    I first caught the boatbuilding bug in high school in the early '60s. In 1971 I picked out a plan. In 1979 I actually starting building, and launched 3 years later. Life kept getting in the way.

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike-in-Suffolk View Post
    A decade? Why? Your boat will take a year, or maybe two, to build.
    Hmm... Seven years for this boat from plans to launch:

    DSCN3310 cropped.jpg
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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    Default Re: The obsession begins...looking for pro/cons of a few designs

    Yeah, but didnít you spend, like, 90% of that seven years taking trips in your brothers Phoenix?

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