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Thread: Synema = Ambition

  1. #1
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    Default Synema = Ambition

    Whatís Kyrsten Sinema Up To? Itís Pretty Obvious.


    Back home, some of her oldest allies ó as well as critics ó have an insight for the Democrats who are trying to corral her, and itís not necessarily a comfortable one: Get used to it. Politically, Sinemaís career looks like she experienced a personal revolution; she began as a left-wing agitator and ended up as a Republican-friendly moderate. But in Arizona, many people see those positions as almost beside the point: For them, Sinema is better understood in terms of pure ambition, and the constant triangulation needed to hold office in a purple state that fancies itself charting an independent course, whatever that requires in the moment.

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...loyalty-517224
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    We are living in interesting times.

    The media does a disservice when it says the dems control the senate. Given the nature of the filibuster, that's simply not true.

    I have a discussion frequently with an ex republican who is of the opinion dems should pass a smaller, less costly package. I'm of the opinion they need to pass something. IMO, the infrastructure bills can keep, and they should pass law protecting women's rights and our votes.

    As to the cost of the infrastructure bills, my view is the cheap often turns out expensive. If we don't, for example, spend money to make places like Manville, NJ able to stand up to storms, we will be spending money to rebuild stuff storms will again destroy.

    It's my belief that if the dems succeed in passing some bills, it will help them pick up seats in '22, provided votes are counted properly.

    If they can keep the house and add a couple of democratic senators, they'll be in a better position to get more stuff done.

    Abortion and voting rights should be their priority at this point in time.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    What’s Kyrsten Sinema Up To? It’s Pretty Obvious.


    Back home, some of her oldest allies — as well as critics — have an insight for the Democrats who are trying to corral her, and it’s not necessarily a comfortable one: Get used to it. Politically, Sinema’s career looks like she experienced a personal revolution; she began as a left-wing agitator and ended up as a Republican-friendly moderate. But in Arizona, many people see those positions as almost beside the point: For them, Sinema is better understood in terms of pure ambition, and the constant triangulation needed to hold office in a purple state that fancies itself charting an independent course, whatever that requires in the moment.

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...loyalty-517224
    If you ain't in the saddle you can't ride the horse. Staying in power regardless of any previously announced 'principles' is what politicians do. The important thing for the voter then is how they actually vote on legislature.
    Politics is a very dirty game and only the dirtiest survive.

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Leave abortion aside for now. Focus on voting rights. If we can guarantee free and fair elections the GOP is toast and the Dems pick up enough seats to tackle abortion after the mid terms.

    Voting and elections are far more important and less divisive than abortion. Lets get some damn points on the board before it's too late and the midterms turn into a GOP sweep. If that happens we are all well and truly screwed

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by willin woodworks View Post
    Leave abortion aside for now. Focus on voting rights. If we can guarantee free and fair elections the GOP is toast and the Dems pick up enough seats to tackle abortion after the mid terms.

    Voting and elections are far more important and less divisive than abortion. Lets get some damn points on the board before it's too late and the midterms turn into a GOP sweep. If that happens we are all well and truly screwed
    Indeed.
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Where they can, Republicans are replacing the people who certify elections with Trumpers. We could see something like the election of 1876, which ushered in the Jim Crow era.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1876_U...romise_of_1877

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    how dare she.

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    how dare she.
    She can be as ambitious as she wants, but she has become obstructionist.
    Pet photography, the degree you get when you fail aromatherapy - Duck D.

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by Katherine View Post
    She can be as ambitious as she wants, but she has become obstructionist.
    obstructionist.

    bernie-style categorical thinking. and divisive name-calling.

    she is certainly obstructing something. and others are obstructing something else.

    she voted for the bipartisan infrastructure bill (which she worked on for months). it is the progressive caucus of the house obstructing the vote on that bill. damned obstructionists!

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    how dare she.
    Any politician must chart their own course. No one in the OP was saying differently. There's always a balance to be struck. Do I tilt toward representing my constituents, or toward good public policy even if it adversely affects my district? Coalition building vs. lone wolf? Bi-partisan vs. highly partisan. And sometimes a variety of factors come into play and conflict a little or a lot. Maybe, say, public opinion, knowledge-based good governance, and personal ambition.

    And all citizens should pay at least some attention to the choices their representatives make... to the balances they strike... and make their own judgements about if they are being represented well.

    So analysis that suggests she's driven largely by ambition is useful to citizens.

    And your response is disingenuous. You act as if the OP, or the author of the little article, or the folks interviewed... are laying down some sort of heavy judgement about her calculus. No one did. Your 'How Dare She???' is a bit of 'straw man' deflection that only derails discussion among those who are trying to understand what is actually occurring.


    “I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is to bring them the real facts, and beer.”

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    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    obstructionist.

    bernie-style categorical thinking. and divisive name-calling.
    Do you even notice the deep and abiding irony embedded in all your relentless anti-Sanders spin? If not, study the example above. I'm not sure if you're the pot or the kettle. Maybe you've pushed it so far that you're able to be both by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    she is certainly obstructing something. and others are obstructing something else.
    The difference, of course--one you have yet to acknowledge much less address--is that the progressive legislators you so despise are pushing to pass policies that enjoy majority voter approval in every single congressional district in the country last I checked.

    Yet you reserve your criticism for the progressive caucus (behind which you see the shadow of Senator Sanders looming large as he supposedly pulls the puppet strings), and give a lone obstructionist (two if you pair her with Manchin) a free pass to indulge the same behaviors that you whine about from progressives. While, arguably, Synema is even more selfish, as she is close to a lone holdout.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Is Synema anything like Dyneema? Strong, flexible, resilient, etc?

    Lightweight and overpriced?
    Steve Martinsen

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    The difference, of course--one you have yet to acknowledge much less address--is that the progressive legislators you so despise are pushing to pass policies that enjoy majority voter approval in every single congressional district in the country last I checked.
    supported by a majority in every single district? even every district in arizona?

    so, if sinema is obstructing this incredibly popular plan, it can't be out of the electoral ambition as described in the o.p., right?

    it's revealing that "independent female politician=ambition".

    there you go again....

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    "pure ambition".

    how dare she.

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    I think her "independence" is very suspect, because it doesn't appear to be in the service of the people who worked to elect her. And she won't even talk to such people anymore - not returning her constituents' calls, emails, texts, etc.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    it's hilarious, because the op-ed in the o.p. accuses sinema of putting her personal ambitions above "party loyalty".

    you know what else isn't "loyal" to the "party"? telling the president, the nationally elected figurehead of your party and the country, "no, we're not voting on that thing you want and have asked for, until everybody promises to pass this over here. no, that stuff isn't coming out of the agenda, it's what the people want and what i say stays, stays." who would say such things to the duly elected potus and leader of the party?

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    bernie ran for the democratic party nomination twice, and despite having all the most "popular" ideas to call his very own, he lost both times.

    well, now he's the president of twitter. repeatedly denying and contradicting and scolding the guy who beat him for the highest office, the guy who is desperately trying to salvage his presidency and the slimmest legislative majority possible. talk about your "ambition over party loyalty".

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    You're not wrong, Lee. The perfect is the enemy applies whether a person is agitating to push the President from the L or the R.

    Sinema isn't impressing me with her advocacy of any position in particular though, or for her constituents. She quite literally is straight-arming anyone who has the temerity to ask her what she actually wants, and how it would serve Arizonans.

    Bernie is agitating for other positions, sure. But in this case, I don't see much daylight between what he wants and what Biden wants. It's only the Manchin and Sinema duo who seem to be getting any concessions from the other faction of the party.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Nobody has yet given me reasons to think that if the Progressives vote on the infrastructure plan, that the 'moderates" won't just blow the larger reconciliation bill up entirely.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    not much daylight between bernie and joe? cmon man.

    joe asked for a vote (through nancy). the progs denied him. he went down the house to ask them personally, they rejected him.

    now, of course, joe can't come right out and admit that he no longer leads the party. but when he does have the temerity to talk about what might be possible, bernie shuts him down. that's what has actually happened. you figure joe and bernie are good buddies at this point?

    yes, biden wanted to be the second coming of fdr, but he saw that the fiscal conservatives (whose votes are needed for anything and everything the administration wants) were not going to go for the big social spending package. he wanted to minimize the rift in the party, make some progress, have something to brag about and campaign on. the last thing he would want is to single out the fiscal conservative democratic senators for browbeating, humiliation, and daily scolding.

    what has happened instead?

    we are a month into the bernie sanders presidency. he didn't earn it, but he has taken it. what have we got to show so far, other than a deeply fractured party, and egg on our faces?

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Nobody has yet given me reasons to think that if the Progressives vote on the infrastructure plan, that the 'moderates" won't just blow the larger reconciliation bill up entirely.
    and nobody has explained why only moderates should want the trillion dollar infrastructure bill. what special hold does that bill have over them that it doesn't have on anyone else? pure bernie logic, made conventional wisdom (for the time being). dse.

    and don't progressives want to govern?

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    as for sinema, it is not true that she's not communicating. she is talking directly to the president. if she doesn't feel like being scolded publicly by the sanderistas, can't say that i blame her.

    if joe had had his way, the op-ed in the o.p. would never have been written. he's an actual party man, and a winning leader who has seen things done. but he has been knee capped by his own wing.

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    I don't see it that way. I see Bernie being willing to jump from North of $6B to a third of that. And arguing for policy proposals which are wildly popular with voters of all stripes. He won't get everything he wants, and has already jettisoned 2/3 of it, in terms of overall spending. More, if you count backing away from a,wealth tax to fully fund it.

    I don't see that it's the Progressive end killing the hope for accord. I can't begin to see what commensurate stuff Manchin or Sinema have offered in a bid to meet halfway.

    What I see is that the 2 "moderates" are opposing the guts of the platform Biden ran and won on. Opposing it with no way to convincingly claim that they are representing a majority of voters in their states. Sinema's voters really like the stuff she's rejecting, for instance. She's not saying why she is opposing their wishes.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    we are a month into the bernie sanders presidency.
    You're delusional.

    It's telling that Manchin and Sinema, who are at least equally deserving of such criticisms, get a free pass from you every single time. And that every political thread you post on becomes a thread about Bernie Sanders.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    I don't see it that way. I see Bernie being willing to jump from North of $6B to a third of that. And arguing for policy proposals which are wildly popular with voters of all stripes. He won't get everything he wants, and has already jettisoned 2/3 of it, in terms of overall spending. More, if you count backing away from a,wealth tax to fully fund it.
    You're wasting your time, Tom. Facts won't break Baxter's frenzied anti-Sanders delusions. They've been offered before to no effect.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    I'm curious as to what I'm allowed to be critical of when discussing one of my senators...

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Governing is the result of sausage making. Compromises, which one doesn't really want to make. Otherwise, it isn't a compromise, it's merely a planned tactical move.

    Sinema's ploy of negotiation only with the President is arrogant as hell, contemptuous of her actual peers. If she were representing her voters, it would be distasteful but able to be stomached. As it is, she literally is refusing calls from the people who worked to elect her, and hasvprompted the resignations of people she had appointed to serve on advisory groups to inform her.

    When 96% of the caucus is against you, and a majority of voters of all parties, it's time to show a bit of humility. Imo.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Humility you say?


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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    supported by a majority in every single district? even every district in arizona?
    Do you somehow imagine that there are congressional districts in Arizona that are not included in "every single congressional district in the country"?

    Here's 7 progressive ideas that enjoy that level of support.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    it's revealing that "independent female politician=ambition".

    there you go again....
    A. I've made no comments on Sinema's motivations, or on her ambitions.

    B. What's really telling is that "independent male politician=the root of all evil" in your narrative.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    leadership manages people like sinema.

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    leadership manages people like sinema.
    By "manages" you apparently mean "lets lone holdouts prevent governance."

    Tom
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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    she voted for the bipartisan infrastructure bill.

    now she is a pariah, hounded all the way to the ****ter. and she is absolutely spinning out.

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    I don't see it that way. I see Bernie being willing to jump from North of $6B to a third of that. And arguing for policy proposals which are wildly popular with voters of all stripes. He won't get everything he wants, and has already jettisoned 2/3 of it, in terms of overall spending. More, if you count backing away from a,wealth tax to fully fund it.

    I don't see that it's the Progressive end killing the hope for accord. I can't begin to see what commensurate stuff Manchin or Sinema have offered in a bid to meet halfway.

    What I see is that the 2 "moderates" are opposing the guts of the platform Biden ran and won on. Opposing it with no way to convincingly claim that they are representing a majority of voters in their states. Sinema's voters really like the stuff she's rejecting, for instance. She's not saying why she is opposing their wishes.
    is that how you saw the election, biden swept in with a mandate on social welfare spending?

    i saw it as a contest of personalities. joe only won because donald couldn't stop insulting his own constituency.

    when the senate got tied with the georgia special elections, everybody's eyes got big. i was hopeful. what with all the crazy pandemic relief and stimulus spending, direct payments with the president's signature, etc., i thought, hey, maybe we can very quietly get a bunch of money for social spending programs.

    i don't understand or support "manchin and sinema's" fiscal conservatism.

    but i am willing to be lead by the president. he saw what was coming and tried to avoid it. he was denied.

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    bernie said today that "the very fabric of american democracy is in danger" if the reconciliation bill doesn't pass with progressive priorities in place.

    is this what you think leadership sounds like? do you think the president wants this pressure put on the passage of this bill in a form approved principally by bernie?

    one month into the sanders administration.

    after all the hair pulling and insults and distraction, we are going to end up with, at best, manchin's version of the reconciliation bill. which joe could have gotten anyway, after a big win on infrastructure. now, there can be no big win on infrastructure. it is meaningless, next to "the very fabric of american democracy!"

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    Default Re: Synema = Ambition

    .
    The congressional GQP strategizes and votes in lockstep while the congressional Democrats bicker. The progressive wing over-reaches and the moderate wing says, "No." While the hyper-partisan 24-hour cable "news" programs tout their viewpoints, the mainstream press points out the Democratic Party disfunction.

    Meanwhile our Constitutional Republic faces an existential threat on November 8, 2022 and November 5, 2024.
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