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Thread: the billionaire's tax plan

  1. #1
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    Default the billionaire's tax plan

    would tax the 700 richest americans based upon their wealth
    these americans would receive additional scrutiny and would be taxed upon the gains in their wealth
    if over any three year they experience loss or reduction in their wealth they charge that against any potential gains
    the revenue from the plan would be used to pay for biden's social spending agenda, tehe

    more here: https://www.npr.org/2021/10/27/10495...n-billionaires

    it's a senate dem plan but being pushed hard by the squad

    freshmen-house-democrats-ap-img.jpg
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    Good luck.

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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    Symbolic and ineffective, I'd say. Need a real progressive tax. Swimming against the current.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Symbolic and ineffective, I'd say. Need a real progressive tax. Swimming against the current.
    Those two descriptors aren't necessarily connected, though, are they? Symbolic actions can be powerful indeed.

    Does the government exist to protect the wealthy and powerful from the masses? Or is it the other way around? That seems to be the perennial question. There's nothing to stop us from deciding either way. So why not decide in the way that provides the most benefit to the most people, rather than further entrenching the oligarchs?

    A real progressive tax would mean taxing wealth and investment income, not wages. People who depend on wages lose much more actual useful value (i.e. theory of diminishing marginal utility) when those wages are taxed, than the wealthy lose when their wealth is taxed. I'm all for it. So, I suspect, are the legislators pictured above.

    Tom
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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    additional scrutiny
    like selling single cigarettes
    like tinted windows

  6. #6
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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    ^^^ Yep. I noticed that, too.
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    I agree with Mr. Jung. As well-intentioned as it might be, the billionaire tax is a very bad idea… and a REAL progressive tax is the solution, one that guarantees that no high income earner pays a lower rate than his secretary. 700 billionaires aren’t the bulk of the problem… it’s really the top 10%, not merely the top 0.01%. There are several blatant inequities in the tax law that could easily be corrected; for example, stock options should be taxed like earned income, and the carried interest loophole should be closed.

    Decades ago, someone got the plausible idea that a reduced tax rate on capital gains would spur investment… but today, it’s essentially an unfair tax dodge. I suggest that the reduced tax rate for cap gains have a limitation, beyond which, the rate should increase to the earned income rate. An incentive to invest is a good thing… but like most things, it can be overdone.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  8. #8
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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Those two descriptors aren't necessarily connected, though, are they? Symbolic actions can be powerful indeed.

    Does the government exist to protect the wealthy and powerful from the masses? Or is it the other way around? That seems to be the perennial question. There's nothing to stop us from deciding either way. So why not decide in the way that provides the most benefit to the most people, rather than further entrenching the oligarchs?

    A real progressive tax would mean taxing wealth and investment income, not wages. People who depend on wages lose much more actual useful value (i.e. theory of diminishing marginal utility) when those wages are taxed, than the wealthy lose when their wealth is taxed. I'm all for it. So, I suspect, are the legislators pictured above.

    Tom
    and the message presented here is a start.


    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    additional scrutiny
    like selling single cigarettes
    like tinted windows
    yeah.

    tho we know more like 'hey! hide that quick before I have to see it!'..


    the other action I'd like to see - and accept that I never will - is IRS scrutiny be far greater for the wealthy than for the working esp poor. Think of scrutiny as an inverse progressive, with none on the poorest and massive on the wealthiest.

    Gawd, Gov supporting the rights of the poor/working! I crack myself up!

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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    it's a bit like the homelessness problem.

    if you don't have a global, coordinated solution, the problem simply migrates.

    local solutions to homelessness don't work, because more homeless appear from other areas.

    national solutions to dealing with extreme wealth don't work, because the extreme wealth just takes the chopper to the yacht...

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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    But without tribes beholden to billionaires how can we build the post democratic republic?

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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    There are reasons, beyond financial ones, why these people aren't moving to other countries.

    I don't see taxes being the motivator to move from the US that some people think.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    the "three years running" provision is an easy out. simply jigger your income so that every third year you make less than a hundred million....

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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    it's a bit like the homelessness problem.

    if you don't have a global, coordinated solution, the problem simply migrates.
    lotta truth there - but, still, the U.S.has no probs taxing U.S. citizens (aka, working slaves) toiling outside the borders.. while the Panama & Pandora papers show they seem to be unable to tax the wealthy - the entirety of whose 'money' is 'on paper' and thus easily tracked.

    Fookin' bizarre.

    Bunch Bull, more like it.

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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    the "three years running" provision is an easy out. simply jigger your income so that every third year you make less than a hundred million....

    I can do that!
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    lotta truth there - but, still, the U.S.has no probs taxing U.S. citizens (aka, working slaves) toiling outside the borders.. while the Panama & Pandora papers show they seem to be unable to tax the wealthy - the entirety of whose 'money' is 'on paper' and thus easily tracked.

    Fookin' bizarre.

    Bunch Bull, more like it.
    well, one law of nature is that, the more money you have, the more lawyers, accountants, and senators you can hire, to scheme and strategize and find the loopholes. all very "legal".

    it works all the way down to people of only millionaire type wealth. didn't we have a member here who registered his sailboat out of state to save fees?

  16. #16
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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    ron wyden is a good man, but he has been infected by the lefty populist nonsense that has been building since occupy wallstreet. i won't mention any names.

    but, the idea that our problems can be solved by creating a special class of people for a special class of tax? it's hooey.

    the fact is, plenty of people posting right here to this forum don't really pay their way. plenty people with enough means and leisure to strategize, taking advantage of the incomplete letter of the law to minimize taxes paid, while the true "working class" simply has their paycheck garnished.

    the lefty populists don't really want to admit that the enemy is us.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    I think it's simple math; Those who hold 90% of the money should pay 90% of the taxes. If they pay less, those with less pay more, either in higher taxes or cuts in benefits.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    the problem is way deeper than tax code. the problem is in the moral code.

    we elected a (billionaire) president who said, in response to the observation that he paid no taxes in a particular year, "that makes me smart".

    when he said it, the reaction was oddly muted. how many times have we heard here, to paraphrase, that one should pay only the minimum that the law can obligate. that's just being smart.

    so, we have stripped the financial world of moral consideration. we equate what is legal with what is right. or we just don't care about the distinction. honor is dead, and we killed it.

    you can't fix that with another law, the spirit of which is to be amorally and intelligently avoided.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    the problem is way deeper than tax code. the problem is in the moral code.

    we elected a (billionaire) president who said, in response to the observation that he paid no taxes in a particular year, "that makes me smart".

    when he said it, the reaction was oddly muted. how many times have we heard here, to paraphrase, that one should pay only the minimum that the law can obligate. that's just being smart.

    so, we have stripped the financial world of moral consideration. we equate what is legal with what is right. or we just don't care about the distinction. honor is dead, and we killed it.

    you can't fix that with another law, the spirit of which is to be amorally and intelligently avoided.
    Here's the bigger problem - and the reason why the reaction was muted. There are obviously fewer multi-millionaires and billionaires than the rest of the voting public. In a true representative democracy, the ability to change tax law from what it is should be a no-brainer, but it isn't due to the fact that when money talks, it speaks with much greater volume.

    Why isn't there revolution in the street? The general public has been convinced of two things - one, that they might join that club of the super-wealthy, and two - they don't like paying taxes either.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    ...The general public has been convinced of two things - one, that they might join that club of the super-wealthy, and two - they don't like paying taxes either.
    one of the things we have been convinced of is that we have no moral obligation to society. we support no ethic beyond what can be proved in court.

    how do we decry that the ultra wealthy don't feel what we don't feel?

  21. #21
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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    I agree Lee, that the issue is the current celebration of gaming the system, of escaping the very obligations which are inherent in participating in civil society, while free-riding on the acquiescence of the rest of us.

    I feel like COVID - and also Trumpism - have been revelatory. Have illuminated how large a proportion of the population has thought this way all along, and oriented their actions that way - but in secret. Constrained to some degree by social norms, by the kind of "political correctness" and etc. which in functional societies acts as checks on intentionally antisocial behaviour.

    I figure that the billionaires didn't mostly get to be billionaires by coloring inside the lines, or by setting business practices which are overly generous, giving the benefit of the doubt. You don't get rich by reducing your own profit margins. So I'm under no illusions that people who've successfully built their wealth ... often gaming the system to assist ... are going to lay down and pay targeted taxes without doing everything their very smart accountants can suggest to reduce it.

    I also think that you lose every game you don't play. Or in this case, you lose every tax avoidance case you don't prosecute.
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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    As the Republicans have worked feverishly to 'drown govt in the tub', part of that has been to emasculate the IRS.

    They don't have the horses.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  23. #23
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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    lotta truth there - but, still, the U.S.has no probs taxing U.S. citizens (aka, working slaves) toiling outside the borders.. while the Panama & Pandora papers show they seem to be unable to tax the wealthy - the entirety of whose 'money' is 'on paper' and thus easily tracked.

    Fookin' bizarre.

    Bunch Bull, more like it.
    What? Bite the hand that feeds them?

  24. #24
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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RmgGIvTddU


    Anand Giridharadas: Billionaire Tax Avoidance Shows 'Social Contract Built On Madness’
    Anand Giridharadas joins Lawrence O’Donnell to discuss the ProPublica report that the country’s 25 wealthiest individuals pay little-to-no income tax. Giridharadas says if the government doesn’t start taxing the ultra-rich on their wealth instead of their income, we will continue the “slouch toward plutocracy.”
    https://inequality.org/great-divide/...ave-the-world/

    Can Billionaires Save the World?

    Those shiny utopias America’s super rich peddle are dulling our democracy.

    BLOGGING OUR GREAT DIVIDE
    OCTOBER 22, 2021
    by Sam Pizzigati

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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    Isn't the bigger issue with billionaires not being taxed that they can use their assets as collateral for preferential lending rates, live off those loans, and then pass the assets on tax free to their children? This doesn't seem to get at the root of buy/borrow/die tax avoidance.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    I agree Lee, that the issue is the current celebration of gaming the system, of escaping the very obligations which are inherent in participating in civil society, while free-riding on the acquiescence of the rest of us.

    I feel like COVID - and also Trumpism - have been revelatory. Have illuminated how large a proportion of the population has thought this way all along, and oriented their actions that way - but in secret. Constrained to some degree by social norms, by the kind of "political correctness" and etc. which in functional societies acts as checks on intentionally antisocial behaviour.
    This is it, exactly. I will never be able to think of people the same way. People have been given permission to become their worst selves, and all too many are rushing into the transformation with gleeful enthusiasm.

    Tom
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  27. #27
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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    I disagree with those who say this will not work or is only symbolic. It directly addresses the problems Picketty brought up in "Capital in the 21st Century" and it closes a lot of tax loopholes that the wealthy use to avoid contributing a dime to the future of the country. Do nothing and they will continue to freeload off the rest of us.
    Yachting, the only sport where you get to be a mechanic, electrician, plumber and carpenter

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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    would tax the 700 richest americans based upon their wealth
    It would raise a lot more income for the government if it taxed all those with wealth above $1 million.
    Life is complex.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    impeccable logic tlt
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: the billionaire's tax plan

    Details Released

    The wealthiest 700 Americans would
    face tougher tax rules and help fund President Joe Biden's "Build Back Better" agenda under a proposal released Wednesday by Senate Finance Committee Chair Ron Wyden.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1282465?fbclid=IwAR1tIS57KGhCam35QoUt-_PiHASr3etdLEFzVvlr85xrRryqUs6OybxTecA



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