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Thread: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

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    Default "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    As I continue my quest into the "why" of Great Lakes Mackinaw boats I come across the attached story about the schooner Defiance. It was 115 feet long, but clearly the builder thought the "Cod's head / Mackerel tail design worked for him in 1848. So the design concept was obviously current in the heyday of the Mackinaw. There's a web site and a very cool 3D animation of the wreck as it sits on the lake bottom. Initially the web site description of sailing North for Chicago was confusing but if you plug in the GPS given on the site it is in Northern Lake Huron sailing the "horseshoe" from Huron into Lake Michigan.


    20200928-defiance-mccgreevy-1000.jpg

    https://thunderbay.noaa.gov/shipwrec...Tjqdqt1En-g6zc

    https://skfb.ly/LMv6
    Last edited by kbowen; 10-21-2021 at 12:53 PM.

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Quote Originally Posted by kbowen View Post
    As I continue my quest into the "why" of Great Lakes Mackinaw boats I come across the attached story about the schooner Defiance. It was 115 feet long, but clearly the builder thought the "Cod's head / Mackerel tail design worked for him in 1848. So the design concept was obviously current in the heyday of the Mackinaw. There's a web site and a very cool 3D animation of the wreck as it sits on the lake bottom. Initially the web site description of sailing North for Chicago was confusing but if you plug in the GPS given on the site it is in Northern Lake Huron sailing the "horseshoe" from Huron into Lake Michigan.


    20200928-defiance-mccgreevy-1000.jpg

    https://thunderbay.noaa.gov/shipwrec...Tjqdqt1En-g6zc

    https://skfb.ly/LMv6
    Looking at the hollow lines of the plank seams in the bow, she is not apple bowed. She has a high prismatic and a long run, but that is not an apple bow, just powerful shoulders.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Looking at the hollow lines of the plank seams in the bow, she is not apple bowed. She has a high prismatic and a long run, but that is not an apple bow, just powerful shoulders.
    I quoted the web site for the wreck which said "apple cheeked" But yes to your point, The lines of the mackinaw look more full forward than they actually are. My boat has drag to the straight keel and the resulting bow sections at the waterline are not extremely full, The prismatic coefficient is 59%. The fullness of the lines does come into play as a lot of buoyancy in a head sea: I have not yet come anywhere close to taking water over the bow, and it would require a fearsome sea-state to do so.

    Ken

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Just so.
    That is where the powerful shoulders come in. Adequate reserve buoyancy above the waterline.
    My Peerie Maa is similar, nearly symmetrical underbody but fuller forward than aft above the water.
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 10-22-2021 at 04:46 AM.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    I've heard the term 'apple cheeked' but never knew which boats it applied to. I think of Paul Fisher's Northumbrian Cobles, where the pointed bow quickly spreads out into what I think of as a faired-in sponson shape above the WL. Powerful shoulders, like Nick says. Seems like a fine idea for decent small-chop penetration while adding buoyancy to lift quickly in the bigger stuff, and maybe add sail-carrying power when heeled. There must be downsides though, as this type doesn't seem overly popular.

    Jack - Seattle


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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    This is apple bowed
    App;e.jpg
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Loudon View Post
    I've heard the term 'apple cheeked' but never knew which boats it applied to. I think of Paul Fisher's Northumbrian Cobles, where the pointed bow quickly spreads out into what I think of as a faired-in sponson shape above the WL. Powerful shoulders, like Nick says. Seems like a fine idea for decent small-chop penetration while adding buoyancy to lift quickly in the bigger stuff, and maybe add sail-carrying power when heeled. There must be downsides though, as this type doesn't seem overly popular.

    Jack - Seattle

    This is the shape of a coble


    Back in the 19th C they were built with fewer wider planks
    1. Cullercoats 1840.jpg
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Thanks Nick, for the explanation.
    Jack

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Loudon View Post
    Thanks Nick, for the explanation.
    Jack
    From me too, I was wondering about the term.

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    This is apple bowed
    App;e.jpg
    I have always appreciated your tag line, "It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat." and I took it on face value which in my mind was that most any wooden boat would be beautiful in some way. But just now I see another interpretation of that line, that a boat which is ugly, is probably ugly because it has weird non-flowing lines with lumps and bumps that wood doesn't want to bend into. So if one has a boat with ugly lines, it will also be a b*tch to plank. I can tell you that the garboards of the Western Lakes Mackinaw need to twist 70 degrees in the first 7' of the boat, and it was holy hell to plank. I leave it to others to judge whether the reputed "bulging" appearance of the classic Mackinaw is ugly or not. I have made my own peace :-) but thank you again for the new brain-window that opened.

    Ken

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    This is apple bowed
    App;e.jpg
    I have always appreciated your tag line, "It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat." and I took it on face value which in my mind was that most any wooden boat would be beautiful in some way. But just now I see another interpretation of that line, that a boat which is ugly, is probably ugly because it has weird non-flowing lines with lumps and bumps that wood doesn't want to bend into. So if one has a boat with ugly lines, it will also be a b*tch to plank. I can tell you that the garboards of the Western Lakes Mackinaw need to twist 70 degrees in the first 7' of the boat, and it was holy hell to plank. I leave it to others to judge whether the reputed "bulging" appearance of the classic Mackinaw is ugly or not. I have made my own peace :-) but thank you again for the new brain-window that opened.

    Ken

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Quote Originally Posted by kbowen View Post
    I have always appreciated your tag line, "It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat." and I took it on face value which in my mind was that most any wooden boat would be beautiful in some way. But just now I see another interpretation of that line, that a boat which is ugly, is probably ugly because it has weird non-flowing lines with lumps and bumps that wood doesn't want to bend into. So if one has a boat with ugly lines, it will also be a b*tch to plank. I can tell you that the garboards of the Western Lakes Mackinaw need to twist 70 degrees in the first 7' of the boat, and it was holy hell to plank. I leave it to others to judge whether the reputed "bulging" appearance of the classic Mackinaw is ugly or not. I have made my own peace :-) but thank you again for the new brain-window that opened.

    Ken
    Your thanks are appreciated but undeserved. It was you that thought it out.
    That amount of twist in a flat bottomed boat is not unusual . A steam chest is your friend.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Another classic method to achieve the same thing is to split the planking stock for the first few strakes from logs with twisted grain.


    By the way there are a few boat types that really defy the idea that boat with wooden planking turns out fair if you look while you plank. Anyone seen a "snidbottning" from Sunnmøre?
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Quote Originally Posted by heimlaga View Post
    Another classic method to achieve the same thing is to split the planking stock for the first few strakes from logs with twisted grain.


    By the way there are a few boat types that really defy the idea that boat with wooden planking turns out fair if you look while you plank. Anyone seen a "snidbottning" from Sunnmøre?
    I am away visiting so cant access Faeroivik. Am I right in thinking that the snidbottning has twice as many strakes forward than aft? The run of planking ;ooks wierd, but the surface is fair.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Not twice as many strakes but certainly a few more forward than aft
    http://www.vikingskip.com/snedbetning.htm
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Quote Originally Posted by heimlaga View Post
    Not twice as many strakes but certainly a few more forward than aft
    http://www.vikingskip.com/snedbetning.htm
    Yep, those are they.
    The ottring was more extream than the faering with three or four strakes doubled up rather than the faerngs two
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Some of the old boats with a cods head configuration were also called apple cheeked. The real examples thought that I've seen are the 17th century gigs/ royal barges etc. that had very fine cut waters then flared to a quite round bow above. I remember observing one at speed in flattish water from a kayak where you saw almost no bow wave, but quite a lot of disturbance a few feet back from the bow where the fullness of the boat started.
    Ben Fuller
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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Here's the bow of Thomas Gilmer's design for an early 17th century shallop replica. Seems to have the shape you describe, Ben. It moved easily, even when heavily laden.

    Little Key-BW background.jpg

    And the profile

    Lines - smoothed-color-jpg.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images
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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    What is fascinating is that the various Thames "royal" barges of the 17th century have Norse style plank keels and stems, very narrow with short scarfs. Some have disconnected framing carried forward to the 19th century Thames skiffs of Three Men and A Boat. Any one interested in these needs a look at May's Boats of the Men of War, https://www.amazon.com/Boats-Men-war.../dp/1861761147 , the 16th/ 17th century models.

    This is all pre steam bending, and the really extreme bends in the topsides planks were achieved with fire bending, something that apparently continued in the Dutch boat building traditions. You'd be hard put to get that almost 90 degree bend needed in the topside planking of the bluff bowed Dutch craft where on fire bending can be done slow, carefully and doesn't need the jigs et al needed for big steam bends.
    Last edited by Ben Fuller; 10-29-2021 at 06:35 PM.
    Ben Fuller
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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    What is fascinating is that the various Thames "royal" barges of the 17th century have Norse style plank keels and stems, very narrow with short scarfs. Some have disconnected framing carried forward to the 19th century Thames skiffs of Three Men and A Boat. Any one interested in these needs a look at May's Boats of the Men of War, https://www.amazon.com/Boats-Men-war.../dp/1861761147 , the 16th/ 17th century models.

    This is all pre steam bending, and the really extreme bends in the topsides planks were achieved with fire bending, something that apparently continued in the Dutch boat building traditions. You'd be hard put to get that almost 90 degree bend needed in the topside planking of the bluff bowed Dutch craft where on fire bending can be done slow, carefully and doesn't need the jigs et al needed for big steam bends.
    THe Norse and Danish tradition was endemic all along the east coat of Britain, around the north and down the west through the islands, and into the east or Ireland coasts. Elements survived in the Scottish herring luggers like Lupos Kate, the cobles, Groomsport Trontheims, and as you say, into the sawn framed rivercraft. The Ness Sgoth also uses hit or miss framing. Some steamed framed boats also had intermediate steamed floors strengthening the bottom.
    The shape of the boats built in the naval yards for goverment service was derived from Whole Moulding, where templates for the bilge and topsides, the hollow of the bow and stern in the forefoot and run were used to create the shape of the frames. That lead to powerfull sholders and full deck line over hollow waterlines typical of ships boats and barges.
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 10-29-2021 at 07:03 PM.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Would this crab boat qualify?Apologies for the poor focus but it was at the limit of my fairly basic camera.

    DSCN0227.jpg

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Would this crab boat qualify?Apologies for the poor focus but it was at the limit of my fairly basic camera.

    DSCN0227.jpg
    Not really, those Cromer crabbers are full formed as befits a beach boat, but not apple cheeked.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Here's the bow of Thomas Gilmer's design for an early 17th century shallop replica. Seems to have the shape you describe, Ben. It moved easily, even when heavily laden.

    Little Key-BW background.jpg

    And the profile

    Lines - smoothed-color-jpg.jpg
    Looks closely related to the hull shape of a traditional skötbåt from the eastern part of Åland. They vere built like that well into the 20th century. Plenty of reserve displacement forward on a easily driven underwater body. Easy loading and offloading over the bow onto a gravel beach or onto a sloping rock. Only with the introduction of motors they gradually started to move the flare further up.
    On western Åland they had the same type of bow though with a small transom nailed to the sternpost above water.

    Edited: I came to think of one more thing concerning those traditional boats from Åland and Roslagen with that type of bow. Under sail at speed they are said to lift somewhat in the water as the waves and water pressure hit the full bow from below. This is said to be especially true with the traditional square sail which was sheeted rather far forward so that it also helped lift the boat. At the same time the rather sharp underwater body provided a lateral resistance when sailing.
    Last edited by heimlaga; 11-02-2021 at 06:52 AM.
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Apple cheeked, or apple bow is a descriptor for bows that are apple shaped. Bows with circular waterlines at the bow, and circular bow/buttock lines as well, planks perpendicular to the stem. See https://modelshipworld.com/topic/243...-cheeked-hull/ for a picture of apple cheeked. Apple bows will have a round forefoot with little or no twist in the garboards.
    Boats with a fine forefoot, bur full topsides in the bow but not so full that the planks are square to the stem are described as having powerful shoulders.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats


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    Default Re: "Apple-Cheeked" boats

    Some nice apple cheeks, boeier Ludana buit in 1893.
    boeier ludana 1893.jpg

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