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Thread: a joint study

  1. #1
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    Default a joint study

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: a joint study

    But which part do you light?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: a joint study

    What timber?
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

  4. #4
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    What timber?
    I'm guessing red oak.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I'm guessing red oak.
    You can see the holes in the end grain, I am guessing red, too.
    Steve Martinsen

  6. #6
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    Default Re: a joint study

    I thought we’d see something more like this:

    D37FE5A9-1227-4E1C-8377-FAE6694B303C.jpg


    Imagine how many joints you’d get from this crop!

  7. #7
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Seeing the truck hauling the trailer with bales loaded reminds me of the early days of the war on drugs and illegal grows on national forest land. In Grants Pass, about nineteen-eighty-something, the autorities brought such a load to town, and decided to burn it all in a bonfire at a vacant lot adjacent to a lumber yard—only a couple of blocks from mainstreet and the little downtown. Tourists paused and sniffed the air. Hippies emerged from wherever being led my the nose, like moths, to congregate as a bunch of campers around the fire, to the unmistable pungency. Pot with a soupįon of accelerant. The weather was overcast and the air heavy with humidity and the smoke sat in drifts, only slowly wafting away down the valley. I can still hear Dennis Hopper saying, 'it was beautiful, man.'
    Speak softly and carry a mouthful of marbles.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: a joint study

    I agree the wood in the OP looks like red oak. But way better looking, more even, than any I've worked with. Must've been a big ol' tree.

    Curious, P, do you know what the joint was part of before it was dissected?
    Speak softly and carry a mouthful of marbles.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    I agree the wood in the OP looks like red oak. But way better looking, more even, than any I've worked with. Must've been a big ol' tree.

    Curious, P, do you know what the joint was part of before it was dissected?
    Probably just made to demonstrate draw dowelling a mortice and tenon.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  10. #10
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Draw boring, they call it over here.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: a joint study

    And draw boring in the UK too- I was project architect for quite a few restorations of timber framed buildings.
    I suspect it's a demo piece, using seasoned timber.
    If, as usual in the medieval period, they used green oak for the frame, they would have clouted the tapered pegs in again after a couple of years.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    ...I can still hear Dennis Hopper saying, 'it was beautiful, man.'
    That is such a great story! Thanks, Jim, for sharing that.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

  13. #13
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    I agree the wood in the OP looks like red oak. But way better looking, more even, than any I've worked with. Must've been a big ol' tree.

    Curious, P, do you know what the joint was part of before it was dissected?
    from this most excellent blog: https://blog.lostartpress.com/2021/1...ut-drawboring/

    'nuther cool pic

    this one of a tediously removed so as to remain intact pin

    307AC9BB-4ED5-4022-8048-81E58D88213B.jpeg

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    from this most excellent blog: https://blog.lostartpress.com/2021/1...ut-drawboring/

    'nuther cool pic

    this one of a tediously removed so as to remain intact pin

    307AC9BB-4ED5-4022-8048-81E58D88213B.jpeg

    Thanks for that Paul. It clears up how the offset holes are marked out.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  15. #15
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    I thought we’d see something more like this:

    D37FE5A9-1227-4E1C-8377-FAE6694B303C.jpg


    Imagine how many joints you’d get from this crop!
    that isn’t mj is it?

  16. #16
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    Default Re: a joint study

    The first time I saw pics and read a description of draw-bore joints was right here, in a Bob Smalser thread. I know I've used the joint for something, but I can't remember what it was.
    Speak softly and carry a mouthful of marbles.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    that isn’t mj is it?
    It sure is.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    It sure is.
    It looks like cgi.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Given our average age, I was expecting a knee, or some such.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Draw-boring, iirc, started out as a mechanism to hold structures together as the large timbers slowly dried out. I'm sure it's still used that way by timber framers and other green lumber builders. The straight-grained pins are the key. Otherwise, that offset is just as likely to break the pin as to suck the joint tight and keep it there.

    But it's also used these days in custom furniture to add a bit of mechanical advantage to a joint. Even with kiln-dried lumber. But, truthfully, I don't see the actual advantage. With today's adhesives, it's redundant. If you're skipping the adhesive and aiming for the ability to knock the piece apart to move/store... there are ways of tenoning that allow for that more easily and more repeatably. It's a good technique to know though, and keep in your back pocket. Because, come the global financial collapse, or the zombie apocalypse, we'll all be working with green lumber for a while. And then, air-dried when we can find it or manage it. And we'll all be glad we paid attention to such traditional techniques.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: a joint study

    I've used draw-bored tenons on a workbench top to keep it stable. The legs we used tusk tenons on so we could knock it down for moving to SCA events.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    I've used draw-bored tenons on a workbench top to keep it stable. The legs we used tusk tenons on so we could knock it down for moving to SCA events.
    I understand the logic. What I'm suggesting is that any battery of lab testing would show those 'permanent' parts of the assembly would be just as stable, maybe more so, with the right adhesives.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: a joint study

    I suspect the joint evolved around the lack of expensive iron nails

  24. #24
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    I suspect the joint evolved around the lack of expensive iron nails
    Partly that. But, as I understand it, more as a mechanism for compensating for shrinkage of large green timbers.

    The book in Pless' link, btw, looks like an excellent resource for such questions.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    I suspect the joint evolved around the lack of expensive iron nails

    Not to mention the pretty basic glues back then.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    I understand the logic. What I'm suggesting is that any battery of lab testing would show those 'permanent' parts of the assembly would be just as stable, maybe more so, with the right adhesives.
    Oh....I'm quite sure they would have been, but this was for a demo as a historic reproduction so we did it the "old" way. B'sides...that was a lotta fun!

  27. #27
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    Oh....I'm quite sure they would have been, but this was for a demo as a historic reproduction so we did it the "old" way. B'sides...that was a lotta fun!
    It is a fun joint to make, for sure. Feels a bit like magic. Or maybe cheating <G>

  28. #28
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    I suspect the joint evolved around the lack of expensive iron nails
    With a bit more deliberation, it is an ancient join and likely closely follows the first stone or bone drill bit or trepan whatever it was called...

  29. #29
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Or maybe cheating <G>
    only when you add 'modern adhesives'
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    Given our average age, I was expecting a knee, or some such.
    I was expecting an ankle.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    only when you add 'modern adhesives'
    Not cheating then. With adhesives it becomes redundant. Even slightly counterproductive - from poking holes in the support structure.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Draw-boring, iirc, started out as a mechanism to hold structures together as the large timbers slowly dried out. I'm sure it's still used that way by timber framers and other green lumber builders. The straight-grained pins are the key. Otherwise, that offset is just as likely to break the pin as to suck the joint tight and keep it there.

    But it's also used these days in custom furniture to add a bit of mechanical advantage to a joint. Even with kiln-dried lumber. But, truthfully, I don't see the actual advantage. With today's adhesives, it's redundant. If you're skipping the adhesive and aiming for the ability to knock the piece apart to move/store... there are ways of tenoning that allow for that more easily and more repeatably. It's a good technique to know though, and keep in your back pocket. Because, come the global financial collapse, or the zombie apocalypse, we'll all be working with green lumber for a while. And then, air-dried when we can find it or manage it. And we'll all be glad we paid attention to such traditional techniques.
    On a solid wood tabletop they are useful for breadboard ends. They have to be installed without glue to allow the top to expand and contract. I do glue the center tenon, but use draw bored dowels for the others, with slotted holes. Keeps the breadboard end tight to the tabletop while allowing for top expansion/contraction.

    This is a walnut tabletop and seating bench in progress.

    Table top
    6C4347C9-9CA2-4E84-ACE2-A8EC594A618F.jpg
    Bench top
    3562A7F2-7AD5-49A3-8634-12F506736EC6.jpg
    Tom

  33. #33
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    Default Re: a joint study

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    On a solid wood tabletop they are useful for breadboard ends. They have to be installed without glue to allow the top to expand and contract. I do glue the center tenon, but use draw bored dowels for the others, with slotted holes. Keeps the breadboard end tight to the tabletop while allowing for top expansion/contraction.

    This is a walnut tabletop and seating bench in progress.
    Good example!

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