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Thread: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

  1. #281
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Aha! Guess I had it wrong all along. This thread got me to do some research & I learned something from someone I trust:

    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  2. #282
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    how do you understand that rant from the donald, garret?

    he is saying that the source of bernie's personal power was his position as an outsider, a critic, a rouser of emotional crowds. just like donald. that bernie subsumed himself enough to lose his power. nothing to do with policy ideas, or a shared vision for america.

    just two personalities, leading same-but-different bases to similar attitudes and emotions.

    donald has done it and continues to do it "successfully" by the only measure that matters to him: his own power.

    bernie has done it and continues to do it detrimentally to what matters to him: his vision of a democratic socialist america.

  3. #283
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Donnie is the de facto leader of the Republican Party, he is by no plausible narrative an outsider.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    I don't understand Donnie - nor do I wish to. I was injecting a bit of my sick sense of humor - as I figured you'd agree with him on Bernie having sold his soul to the devil.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  5. #285
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I don't understand Donnie - nor do I wish to. I was injecting a bit of my sick sense of humor - as I figured you'd agree with him on Bernie having sold his soul to the devil.
    no, the devil in donald's eyes is the democratic party. i disagree that bernie "sold his soul" to the democrats.

    bernie chose not to run as a third party candidate because he wouldn't win. he had a chance as an insider democrat, but he never became one. he kept sounding the outsider notes, making headlines for attacking the party. he's still doing it. he's in the news every day for it, in fact.

  6. #286
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Donnie is the de facto leader of the Republican Party, he is by no plausible narrative an outsider.
    donald is still an outsider, it's just that his personal position is stronger than all the insider republicans put together, built on his emotional hold over a majority of the conservative voting base, a hold founded on the anger and resentment he stoked in them. he has brought the party to himself.

    bernie doesn't have similar control over the voting base of democrats. the tactics donald applied on the right simply won't work on the left. yet.

  7. #287
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    That darn Bernie again
    We are prepared to negotiate, we are prepared to compromise, but we are not going to negotiate with ourselves

  8. #288
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    i don't know what this means, if it means anything.

    We are prepared to negotiate, we are prepared to compromise, but we are not going to negotiate with ourselves

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    We are prepared to negotiate, we are prepared to compromise, but we are not going to negotiate with ourselves
    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    i don't know what this means, if it means anything.
    My best guess is that it means:

    Progressives have made good-faith efforts to negotiate with Manchin and Sinema, who have chosen not to respond. Now progressives are being pressured to "negotiate with themselves" by making a new offer that might be deemed more attractive to Manchin and Sinema, who have so far refused to say what they need to stop playing obstructionists.

    And that, quite rationally, the progressives recognize that "negotiating with themseves" is a losing tactic for them, and they aren't willing to do it. They feel--quite correctly--that the ball is in Manchin and Sinema's court. There's really very little incentive, tactically speaking, for progressives to cave. This is the strongest point they're going to have. Give up now, and they become far less relevant.

    The fact that some get angry with them for not agreeing to take a loss with no compensation surprises me. You can disagree with their position, but the only thing that caving in now does for them is to make them weaker. Perhaps the rest of the party will decide they have more to lose, and Manchin and Sinema will be brought on board. But, maybe not. But blaming Bernie Sanders for being the root of all evil is sub-rational. It's an emotional response that ignores the situational realities.

    Tom
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  10. #290
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    ahh, your best guess makes sense, tom.

    insofar as it may be true that manchin and/or sinema are radio silent on what they would support in the reconciliation bill, trying to rewrite the bill and presenting a modification to incommunicative parties does seem a waste of time.

    i am trying to understand sinema as a human being. her background as a died-in-the-wool lefty, election to the senate in a conservative state, her summer job working on the bipartisan infrastructure bill, her being harassed as far as the bathroom stall by progressives, her reticence on the bill being presented as a gun to her head. "tell us what you want!"

    what if, what if...what if she already told them. and the progressives simply wouldn't accept her answer?

    we know that manchin told shumer in july what his price tag limit would be. however arbitrary that limit, however "wrong" manchin's justification, was it ever given serious consideration? was a package within that limit ever considered or presented by the progressives?

    it's not fair that a couple of relatively conservative senators have so much power over the agenda. but they do get to vote. that's the system. and as long as electoral majorities are counted in single digits, well, reality bites.

    blame whoever you want.

    leadership matters.

  11. #291
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    I think your "what if" (Sinema already told them), if it were true, would have been in the news, don't you? The only stories I've heard is that Manchin and Sinema are refusing to say what it would take to bring them on board, but I haven't been following this so closely that I'm sure about that.

    But then, the refusal to answer might be the answer. They won't play ball. And no one can make them.

    I still don't see a win for progressives to pass the infrastructure bill if it means giving up on everything else. And I think that's exactly what it means.

    I also don't actually see it as a matter for blame. There isn't all that much agreement among the Democratic party as a whole. I can see why no one wants to move to a weaker position--progressives OR Manchin/Sinema. Lots of calculation going on, I'm sure, about who risks the bigger loss if an agreement can't be found. And if you think the other side will be the bigger loser, it makes little tactical sense to give in.

    Tom
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Yeah, sinema can’t be bothered to say what she wants, she just takes lobbyists $$$ because they are the only people she cares about. Seems a pretty easy read of “quirky” genx narcissism and extreme dc-bubble tonedeafness, pretty easy really.

  13. #293
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again



    Synema To Change Parties?



    OK, I made that up. But it's not too outrageous a speculation. Here's an actual article --

    Democratic Sen. Kyrsten Sinema received the legal maximum of donations from several known GOP donors, new FEC filings show

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...how/ar-AAPBDuH
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  14. #294
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    If she wants to get re-elected - a big question - it’s her chance. She’s tanking in dem/independent support in the polls and not making it up with republicans (who could have predicted that )

  15. #295
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    it's too bad we don't have leadership in the party that might have foreseen this debilitating stalemate from, and the ruinous consequences of, holding bipartisan lawmaking hostage to the progressive agenda.

  16. #296
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    did you guys see where bernie called democratic party unity.

    "..the question of whether we finally deliver consequential legislation to improve the lives of working class families comes down to Democratic unity."
    the gall, really. what a clueless old buffoon.

  17. #297
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Manchin To Change Parties?

    OK, I made that one up, too. But here's the story --

    Manchin accepted over $400,000 from energy companies and GOP donors in the third quarter

    https://www.businessinsider.com/manc...donors-2021-10
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    did you guys see where bernie called democratic party unity.

    ..the question of whether we finally deliver consequential legislation to improve the lives of working class families comes down to Democratic unity."
    the gall, really. what a clueless old buffoon.
    So you disagree that the question of whether the Build Back Better Act passes (which is what the comment means, in context) hinges on Democratic party unity? In other words, you somehow think there is another way to pass it, WITHOUT party unity, while the Senate is split 50-50?

    Do tell. Even when Bernie Sanders states something obviously factual, you object, and revert to ad hominem attacks instead of addressing his claims. And whine about "the gall" when he is simply saying what we all know is true. When it comes to Bernie Sanders, your responses are the very definition of irrational kneejerk thinking. Pure emotion, no intellect.

    Tom
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    it's too bad we don't have leadership in the party that might have foreseen this debilitating stalemate from, and the ruinous consequences of, holding bipartisan lawmaking hostage to the progressive agenda.
    Quite the spin, as usual. The situation could just as easily be described as Sinema and Manchin holding the party hostage to the fossil fuel agenda.

    Then, too, your apparent belief in the possibility of "bipartisan" lawmaking in the time of Trump-era Republicans is beyond naive.

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 10-16-2021 at 10:31 PM.
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  20. #300
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    you don't find it at all ridiculous that guy with the "i" after his name is scolding and browbeating people with "d" behind their names for being...independent?

    nobody has done more damage to democratic party unity than bernie sanders.

    remember how the dnc rigged the nomination process against bernie in 2016? of course you do.

    well, "what if i told you", that never happened. that's just something you came to believe because bernie led you there. he's still leading you.

    and not only is he a deleterious influence on the democrats, but on the whole body politic.

    draw a straight line from bernie railing against the democratic party nomination process, to trumpkins claiming that '20 was "stolen". plain as day.

  21. #301
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    you don't find it at all ridiculous that guy with the "i" after his name is scolding and browbeating people with "d" behind their names for being...independent?
    You see what you want to see, apparently. To say that passage of the Build Back Better Act depends on party unity, with the Senate split 50-50, is "browbeating"? Pull the other one.

    You're outraged because an independent senator chooses to work with the party whose nominal goals, and whose voters, align to a significant degree with his own? Nonsense. You want Bernie to support Democrats, but you don't want the party to do anything to earn his vote, or the votes of his supporters. All the while, you're in favor of bending over backward to meet demands from Manchin and Sinema.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    remember how the dnc rigged the nomination process against bernie in 2016? of course you do.

    well, "what if i told you", that never happened. that's just something you came to believe because bernie led you there. he's still leading you.
    First, "rigged" is a straw man. I've never said it. Word choice matters, and (as always) you're trying to spin like crazy to generate emotional responses, instead of going where the facts lead.

    The DNC and the party establishment clearly favored Clinton in 2016, and did things that advantaged her in the primary process. If "you told me" that didn't happen, here's what would happen:

    1. As always, you'd neglect to include any links or refer to any evidence to support your assertion.

    2. So, I'd give it the attention it deserves--zero.

    3. I might provide evidence supporting my own view as a next step, such as this (from VOX):

    The core facts are straightforward: As Barack Obama’s presidency drew to a close, the DNC was deep in debt. In return for a bailout, DNC Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz gave Hillary Clinton’s campaign more potential control over its operations and hiring decisions than was either ethical or wise. But those operations were mostly irrelevant to the primary and couldn’t have been used to rig the process even if anyone had wanted to use them that way; the primary schedule, debate schedule, and rules were set well in advance of these agreements. “I found nothing to say they were gaming the primary system,” Brazile told me. And while that contradicts the more sensational language she used in her book, it fits the facts she laid out both in her original piece and since.

    But there’s a larger context that is more important than what happened at the DNC and is getting lost in the back and forth over joint fundraising agreements and staffing power. The Democratic Party — which is a different and more complex entity than the Democratic National Committee, and which includes elected officials and funders and activists and interest groups who are not expected to be neutral in primaries — really did favor Hillary Clinton from early in the campaign, and really did shape the race in consequential ways.
    Note how I'm not making simplistic emotion-driven claims like "the election was rigged." It wasn't. The situation was more complex than that, and in fact, Bernie Sanders wasn't the primary victim of the DNC's unethical behavior. From Vox again:

    The losers were potential candidates like Vice President Joe Biden, Sen. Warren, or Colorado Gov. John Hickenlooper — and, thus, Democratic primary voters, who ended up with few choices in 2016. To the extent Democratic primary voters feel like they were denied a broad range of candidates in 2016, and that party officials tried to clear the field to coronate Clinton, well, they’re right.

    Democratic elites, defined broadly, shaped the primary before voters ever got a chance to weigh in, and the way they tried to shape it was by uniting behind Clinton early in the hopes of avoiding a bruising, raucous race. The question — which is important going forward, not just for relitigating 2016 — is whether that was the right decision.
    It's interesting that all you can bring to this discussion is outrage at Bernie Sanders. You're missing far bigger, and far more important, things.

    Tom
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    over the past few weeks, two democratic senators have been isolated from the pack, scolded, threatened, lied about, made household names for "obstructing" bernie's agenda. (it became bernie's agenda, the day it stopped being biden's. the day the progs refused to vote on the infrastructure bill, see the o.p.)

    i'm not going to rehash all the ways that bernie has driven this division, but will note that bernie thrives personally on the fracturing of the democratic party.

    did we mention yet the op-ed bernie published in joe manchin's back yard.

    everything about bernie's approach is "impolitic".

    sanders is like the old lady in that funny commercial, "i unfriend you".

    that's not how any of this works.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    i'm not going to rehash all the ways that bernie has driven this division
    Or, it seems, provide any evidence to support your claims. Or to address the claims of others. As expected.

    Tom
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Or, it seems, provide any evidence to support your claims. Or to address the claims of others. As expected.

    Tom
    bernie's public words and deeds in the last few weeks are "the evidence to support" my claims.

    simply repeating over and over that i haven't been arguing from a reasonable perception of actual events does not constitute argument on your part.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    bernie's public words and deeds in the last few weeks are "the evidence to support" my claims.

    simply repeating over and over that i haven't been arguing from a reasonable perception of actual events does not constitute argument on your part.
    Apparently you missed the links and quotations I provided to support my claims. Not to mention, you've failed to respond to my suggestions that:

    1. Bernie was telling the truth when he said the fate of the Build Back Better Act depends on Democratic party unity.

    2. Sinema and Manchin are the party outliers and the real obstructionists--not Bernie Sanders (who isn't in the party, which is a constant source of outrage for you for some reason), and not the progressive wing (who support ideas that Biden himself, along with a majority of ALL voters, in EVERY congressional district in the nation, are in favor of).

    3. The DNC did, in fact, act to undermine voters' choices in the 2016 primary by backing Clinton in an attempt to avoid a divisive primary race. In other words, to avoid all that messy "democracy" stuff. So, it should be no surprise to see those who've been paying attention to such things are still skeptical of the party mainstream.

    All you see is me critiquing your hyperbolic spin, loaded words, and obsession with Sanders as the root of all evil. You ignore everything else I've said, and then complain that I haven't said it.

    Like I said: all emotion and outrage, and no intellect.

    Tom
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  26. #306
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    bernie's public words and deeds in the last few weeks are "the evidence to support" my claims.
    You mean, his consistent and continued criticism of the Republican party?

    Oh, no. That's right. You ignore that part of what he says because it doesn't fit your narrative, and doesn't pop up in your news feed.

    Tom
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Just curious. How do folks feel about Manchin's threat to leave the party if he doesn't get what he wants. Surely that's better than all the evil stuff Bernie's doing, right?
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    i don't see the problem if he puts an "i" after his name, that's what all the best leaders do.

    amirite.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    The problem now is certainly not Mr Sanders, but Manchin, and particularly Kyrsten Sinema. She appears to be implacably opposed to raising taxes on the rich. No, I don't understand why.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Sinema refuses to close the carried interest loophole. She wants the investor class to be better than labor.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    there are different ways to not get what you want.

    some are more destructive than others. way more.

    the democratic party needs to be a really big tent in order to (just barely) counter the trump party.

    the choice has been made to drive conservatives out.

    vaya con dios, amurica.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    the pragmatic democrats, led by biden and pelosi, saw the writing on the wall. asked for a vote on important, feather in the cap legislation. nobody called out. no story fomented about party failure. no wedges driven.

    bernie, leading the progressive wing, defied the party's own president on the vote, and has made a point of separating "manchin and sinema", pounding into the collective consciousness their names, scolding, shaming, breaking them off.

    the biggest loser of our times.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Lol.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Mr Baxter, on this issue you are simply dead wrong. I am as opposed to self-destructive ideological purity as you are, and the left wing of the Democratic party has certainty exhibited that lamentable trait all too often. But in his case, they are not the problem. The extremism and utter intransigence of the Republicans is the root of it, but on the Democratic side, it's Manchin and Sinema, and the filibuster rule.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Mr Baxter, on this issue you are simply dead wrong. I am as opposed to self-destructive ideological purity as you are, and the left wing of the Democratic party has certainty exhibited that lamentable trait all too often. But in his case, they are not the problem. The extremism and utter intransigence of the Republicans is the root of it, but on the Democratic side, it's Manchin and Sinema, and the filibuster rule.
    take a poll, keith. i am fine being "wrong".

    this isn't about just one thing. declaring who is right and wrong is almost meaningless. it's the results that will matter. and who is leading us?

    i agree that on the build back better agenda "manchin and sinema" are nearly as useless as republicans. nearly, but not quite.

    that's what joe and nancy saw. that was the reality they were working with. the real one. they could foresee the ruinous fight, and tried to avoid it.

    biden surveyed his position, and gave the order to "live to fight another day."

    the order was defied, in blindness to the certain doom that would follow.

    "we must fight them now, to the death if needs be! god is on our side!"

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