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Thread: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

  1. #71
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    ah yes, the old "i'll give you something to cry about" belt whipping.

    it is true that a big chunk of deplorables are going to be deplorable, no matter what.

    but with an electorate so evenly split, we need turn only a fraction of conservative voters towards rational, cooperative behavior. bring them back into the fold of shared reality. give them a reason to say something inane like "well, at least biden got infrastructure done" and turn back to their lives and away from the fight. the fight is killing us.
    Or give a fraction of rational non-voters something they can actually believe in.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    I think a wise tradeoff would to be put voting rights into reconciliation. If the feds pay for enough places/equipment to eliminate long lines, it would be a budget item.

    Not sure most of this matters if we lose our democracy.

    What's in this huge bill. Child care, so mothers can go to work and fill some of those jobs businesses are having trouble filling. These things connect.

    There's a serious effort to slow climate change. Spending less now will be spending more later. Seems we could move some defense spending from defending us from other countries to defending us from more frequent and severe storms.

    Then there's the 'trust' factor. It appears there was a handshake deal that some are declining to live up to. That does not bode well.

    My leaning at this point is they should pass the basic infrastructure bill. The house should then pass a law make Roe the law of the land, and they should pass some serious voting rights protections. They won't pass the senate, but these would gain them votes in '22 If they gain votes, then they can pass the big bill.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    The parliamentarian, aka the hack put in by McConnell, would strike that down.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    ah yes, the old "i'll give you something to cry about" belt whipping.

    it is true that a big chunk of deplorables are going to be deplorable, no matter what.

    but with an electorate so evenly split, we need turn only a fraction of conservative voters towards rational, cooperative behavior. bring them back into the fold of shared reality. give them a reason to say something inane like "well, at least biden got infrastructure done" and turn back to their lives and away from the fight. the fight is killing us.
    Tough row.

    Not sure if this actually came from Twain... but it is no less true --


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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    So Sinema left DC today.

    will her obvious bad faith change the minds an iota?

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    It’s not correct actually, and the belief it is only justifies the one way dysfunction of the senate. The founders didn’t intend for “advise and consent” to mean one party takes control over the courts by bad faith lies.

    I guess the bilge galaxy brain doesn’t pay any attention to the actual culture war? They are already calling Dems socialists and Marxists. They argue the police have been defunded. Maybe actually do what they call you?
    The Senate was specifically implemented to placate slave holding states that would have very weaker representation in the house, even after the 3/5ths. It was made to put the interest of the state, ahead of the interest of the population. That's just simple historical fact.

    To balance power between the large and small states, the Constitution's framers agreed that states would be represented equally in the Senate and in proportion to their populations in the House. Further preserving the authority of individual states, they provided that state legislatures would elect senators.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    So Sinema left DC today.

    will her obvious bad faith change the minds an iota?
    she is the worst.

    so, what now?

    biden is headed to the house today. what do you think he is looking for?

  8. #78
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvida View Post
    The Senate was specifically implemented to placate slave holding states that would have very weaker representation in the house, even after the 3/5ths. It was made to put the interest of the state, ahead of the interest of the population. That's just simple historical fact.
    No, the senate wasn’t specifically implemented to do that. Here are some contemporaneous writings about the debate
    https://csac.history.wisc.edu/docume...ebates/senate/
    Like the Supreme Court, the senate has wrapped itself in myth of its own creation to excuse its current dysfunction

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    No, the senate wasn’t specifically implemented to do that. Here are some contemporaneous writings about the debate
    https://csac.history.wisc.edu/docume...ebates/senate/
    Like the Supreme Court, the senate has wrapped itself in myth of its own creation to excuse its current dysfunction
    From your source:
    Large-state Federalists justified the equality of the states in the Senate largely on the basis of expediency. Without this concession to the small states at the Constitutional Convention, consensus would have been impossible.
    The Senate is there to placate the slave states, otherwise there wouldn't have been a country. Or, more likely, multiple countries.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    ^^^ Yep. I think that sums it up nicely.

    Tom
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  11. #81
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    if the self-proclaimed progressives have their way, the trillion dollar infrastructure bill will remain coupled to the 3.5 trillion wish list, and we will get nothing.

    bernie is still playing activist, not leading toward the best manageable solution. just like his entire career, mostly tearing down his allies to remain pure himself.

    what bernie had to say. note his mention of the "democratic caucus", always holding the party at arm's length like a dirty sock.
    Haters gonna hate--they won't let reality get in the way.

    But have fun blaming Bernie for Sinema & Manchin.

    Tom
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  12. #82
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvida View Post
    From your source:


    The Senate is there to placate the slave states, otherwise there wouldn't have been a country. Or, more likely, multiple countries.

    I see you didn’t bother to read the primary documents, and clearly you never will.

    keep excusing ahistorical failure.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    This is one organization I do volunteer work for. Their take --

    I’m going to be honest: this is one of those weeks where if it’s not your job to pay attention to what’s happening in Washington, you might be confused.

    But I’m writing because something really important and inspirational happened this week - progressives flexed their power to win. And I want to give you the inside account of how it went down.

    Let’s set the scene. About six months ago, Democrats across the party spectrum agreed that they’d try to move their agenda through two bills: a bipartisan infrastructure bill (the BIF) and the Build Back Better Act. The idea was that Dems would work with Republicans on the (very small) areas of infrastructure where compromise was possible, and then we’d roll all the really big and important parts of the Democratic agenda -- climate action, paid family leave and child care, lower prescription drug prices, a pathway to citizenship, and more -- into one megabill, the Build Back Better Act, which could pass through the reconciliation process with just Democratic votes.

    The idea behind linking the two bills was simple. Conservative Dems would get what they wanted (some headlines about bipartisanship, good vibes), and the rest of us would get what we wanted (THE ACTUAL DEMOCRATIC AGENDA).

    And there was a simple reason the two bills needed to stay linked: because conservative Democrats (and their corporate donors) seemed suspiciously eager to just pass the BIF and then abandon everything else. Based on their behavior, we had every reason to suspect that if they got what they wanted first, they’d leave the Build Back Better plan high and dry.

    In August, after the Senate passed the BIF, things started to get hairy. A revolt by conservative Democrats in the House forced Speaker Pelosi to schedule a vote on the BIF for the end of September. The conservative Democrats claimed they just wanted to pass the BIF as fast as possible -- but it was painfully obvious that their real goal was to tank the Build Back Better plan by delinking the two bills (their corporate donors even confirmed it).

    For the next month, conservative Democrats pretty much refused to bargain at all on the Build Back Better plan. Why should they? They figured they’d get what they wanted when the BIF vote happened. Progressives would fold, the bill would pass, and Joe Manchin and Krysten Sinema could declare themselves done with legislating for the year and go hang out on their respective yachts and vineyards.

    But that is NOT what happened this week.

    Why? Because the Congressional Progressive Caucus, led by the fearless Representative Pramila Jayapal, was ready for this moment. They could see the writing on the wall, and they understood that if BIF passed *without* the Build Back Better Act, everything we care about -- including the agenda nearly all Democrats ran on and voters elected them for -- would be doomed. And so they did something big and brave. They organized, as a bloc, to temporarily withhold their votes for the BIF. More than 60 Democrats ultimately agreed that they weren’t going to vote for the BIF until the final version of the Build Back Better act was negotiated out and passed through the House and Senate.

    The message was clear: if conservatives want their infrastructure bill, they’re going to have to work with the rest of the party to first pass the majority of the Build Back Better Agenda.

    In short, progressives used their power to fight for all of us - and to save President Biden’s agenda. Because let’s be real: we are going to need to deliver on more than roads and bridges during this rare, crucial trifecta. Democrats campaigned on climate action, lower prescription drug prices, building an economy that delivers for working families, not just the rich and powerful, and more. The Build Back Better plan is the real heart of the Biden agenda; its passage or failure will define Biden as a President. And as a result of progressives flexing their power, we are now in a stronger place to win it.

    So our next step is clear: we need to have progressives’ backs as they work to negotiate an agreement. They’re sitting at that table with two things: the ambition to deliver for communities, and the flexibility to land an agreement. The louder we are in backing them, and the more we keep pressuring the conservative Democratic holdouts, the better that final deal will be.

    What’s next? Glad you asked:

    TODAY: Take some time to decompress! The last few months have been a long, hard slog of legislation, and while there’s nobody we’d rather be doing it with, the good company doesn’t make it less exhausting! Light some candles, take a walk around the block, have a 60-second dance party, cook a great dinner with your loved ones. Whatever you do, make sure to enjoy this moment, because what we’ve done together, although it’s not finished yet, is a massive win for people all over this country.

    TOMORROW: March for Roe! This weekend, activists all over the country will be marching to defend the right to abortion, spurred by the horrific new Texas anti-abortion law. Click here to find a march near you, dig out your protest signs, and don’t forget your mask. (This isn’t reconciliation-related, but it is important and should also be fun.)

    MONDAY: Unfortunately, the fight to pass Build Back Better isn’t done. We still need to hold the line in the House and Senate and make sure both BIF and reconciliation pass, together. Click here to call your Member of Congress and then click here to call your Senators. Tell all three you expect them to support the reconciliation package and to vote to pass it before they move BIF forward.
    None of this would have happened without Indivisibles who put work in for days, months, and years on end to build a strong progressive block in the House. None of it would have happened without the hundreds of phone calls we made to support the progressive bloc and ensure the conservatives knew we were watching them. None of it would have happened without YOU. Thank you.

    In solidarity,
    Leah Greenberg
    Co-Executive Director, Indivisible

    P.S. Want to be up to date on breaking news as it happens? Text INDIVISIBLE to 97779 and we’ll add you to our mobile rapid response team.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    ...

    In solidarity,
    Leah Greenberg
    Co-Executive Director, Indivisible
    That is pretty much how I saw history happen.
    Life is complex.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    have fun storming the castle!

  16. #86
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    being "right", along with $7.50, will get you a mocha grande at starbucks.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    have fun storming the castle!
    Irony is all too often the servant of despair.

    Despair doesn't win fights.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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  18. #88
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    except that it's not a fight. it's a vote.

    and we have another set of elections next year, in which people will vote. not fight.

    the fighting happens in the streets (and at school board meetings) and generally decides nothing until many people are dead. and the winner is the stronger side, not the most correct.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post

    But have fun blaming Bernie for Sinema & Manchin.
    straw man fallacy.

    i made no reference to sinema and manchin. they are almost superfluous to my point.

    neither one of them are national leaders of the left. they are nominal democrats, and in that respect marginally useful to national leadership. they represent their constituency, and maybe not very well. we will find out when they come up for reelection. be prepared for disappointment.

    if bernie has his way, we will get no marginal utility out of sinema and manchin. that would be more of the usual losing, democrat style.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    straw man fallacy.
    Ah, the most mis-used phrase in the Bilge is back! And still being mis-used.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    i made no reference to sinema and manchin.
    My point exactly. Even though they are the real obstacle here, you choose to blame Bernie Sanders and other progressives, who all along have been working toward a compromise that will let the Democrats actually accomplish something. That's what linking infrastructure to the Biden "Build Back" plan is all about.

    Like I said, haters gonna hate.

    Tom
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  21. #91
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    "the fight".

    lol.

    the fight is sparked by having a black president. and it is the bernie led democrats who decided that obama was a dud because he wasn't transformative enough. meanwhile, obama's mere existence caused the white patriarchy in this country to lose its freaking mind. and the white patriarchy has demonstrated the ability to run the worst p.o.s. in history, and win the election.

    not the fight. the election.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    except that it's not a fight. it's a vote.

    and we have another set of elections next year, in which people will vote. not fight.

    the fighting happens in the streets (and at school board meetings) and generally decides nothing until many people are dead. and the winner is the stronger side, not the most correct.
    You have a strange knack for cramming a literal interpretation into an idiomatic bit of figurative language.

    Tom
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Like I said, haters gonna hate.
    yeah. now say something else.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    "the fight".

    lol.

    the fight is sparked by having a black president. and it is the bernie led democrats who decided that obama was a dud because he wasn't transformative enough. meanwhile, obama's mere existence caused the white patriarchy in this country to lose its freaking mind. and the white patriarchy has demonstrated the ability to run the worst p.o.s. in history, and win the election.

    not the fight. the election.
    OK, I can generally agree with this.

    But, Obama was pretty much a dud. He made the mistake of assuming good intent, and good faith, on the part of Republicans. And he kept making that mistake through both terms.

    I liked, and admired Obama. But "dud" is not all that far from the truth, especially to those of us who remember all the promises about "hope and change" and "yes we can."

    Tom
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    riiiiggght. "obama was pretty much a dud".

    what has happened in this country since bernie became the leader of the progressive left?

    what does he have to show for his leadership.

    let's see, when did it kick in...occupy wallstreet seems like a reasonale birthday of left wing populism. how have things gone since then?

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Instead of pointing the finger at Bernie to dodge the issue, let's hear your thoughts on the point I made:

    Do you think Obama made a mistake by continually trying to work with Republicans, and not acknowledging the bad faith and bad intent he was facing? And if so, can you understand how that might lead many to believe that Obama really might have been something like a dud?

    That has nothing to do with Bernie Sanders or the progressive left, unless the question makes you so uncomfortable you need to dodge it again.

    Tom
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Instead of pointing the finger at Bernie to dodge the issue, let's hear your thoughts on the point I made:

    Do you think Obama made a mistake by continually trying to work with Republicans, and not acknowledging the bad faith and bad intent he was facing? And if so, can you understand how that might lead many to believe that Obama really might have been something like a dud?

    That has nothing to do with Bernie Sanders or the progressive left, unless the question makes you so uncomfortable you need to dodge it again.

    Tom
    who is dodging "the issue".

    the issue is the populist left continually kneecapping the democratic party as it attempts to navigate political leadership through a hot culture war.

    no, obama was not mistaken in trying to lead the nation.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    tell me how things have gone since bernie the populist crusader took national leadership of the progressive left?

    "unless the question makes you so uncomfortable you need to dodge it again".

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    who is dodging "the issue".

    the issue is the populist left continually kneecapping the democratic party as it attempts to navigate political leadership through a hot culture war.

    no, obama was not mistaken in trying to lead the nation.
    You misunderstand, or are being egregiously obtuse.

    The mistake he made was not in trying to lead the nation. The mistake was continuing the same tactics long after it was apparent they were not effective.

    And now, all you can do is complain and whine about the leaders we have who don't want to see the Democratic party make that SAME mistake, all over again.

    Your analysis of things is generally pretty sharp, and I've changed my mind because of things you've posted before. But on this issue, you have a huge blind spot, and a seemingly inexhaustible store of resentment for the progressive wing of the Democratic party, and for Sanders. The progressives are the only thing keeping the Democrats from rolling over right now.

    Tom
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    tell me how things have gone since bernie the populist crusader took national leadership of the progressive left?

    "unless the question makes you so uncomfortable you need to dodge it again".
    Well, let's see. Democratic majority in the House. Democratic majority in the Senate, with the tie-breaking VP. Democratic president in the White House. A plan to pass infrastructure with bipartisan support, and then a larger stimulus (with provisions overwhelmingly popular with ALL voters) through the reconciliation process. A Democratic AG suing Texas in an unprecedented move. Massive awareness of the need for police reform.

    Of course, you'll now say that none of this is due to progressives.

    Tom
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    www.tompamperin.com

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    "obama was a disappointment"

    "hillary is the real republican candidate"

    "i held my nose and voted for joe"

    you all say the same lines. you can convince yourself you got there through independent thinking. i say you've been led there by the left wing populist.

    the answers are so obvious, and so easy! uncle bernie has the best ideas! bernie's ideas are so popular, all we need to do is get them enacted and all our troubles will be over!

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Well, let's see. Democratic majority in the House. Democratic majority in the Senate, with the tie-breaking VP. Democratic president in the White House. A plan to pass infrastructure with bipartisan support, and then a larger stimulus (with provisions overwhelmingly popular with ALL voters) through the reconciliation process. A Democratic AG suing Texas in an unprecedented move. Massive awareness of the need for police reform.

    Of course, you'll now say that none of this is due to progressives.

    Tom
    i had no idea things were so peachy!

    thanks bernie!

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Let's hope that the 'win' part is not premature.
    "unfortunately, the fight for build back better isn't done".

    you don't say.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    You . . . are being egregiously obtuse.


    Tom
    I am ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    "obama was a disappointment"

    "hillary is the real republican candidate"

    "i held my nose and voted for joe"

    you all say the same lines. you can convince yourself you got there through independent thinking. i say you've been led there by the left wing populist.

    the answers are so obvious, and so easy! uncle bernie has the best ideas! bernie's ideas are so popular, all we need to do is get them enacted and all our troubles will be over!
    Nope. With the exception of "Obama was a disappointment," YOU said those lines, not me. And even that line deserves more nuance than you acknowledge.

    I admire, and supported, his initial approach to attempt bipartisanship and non-divisive leadership. I admire him as a man. He's funny as hell, and smart (you can't be one without the other), and pretty much scandal-free, with a lot of integrity.

    But his failure to take decisive action once it became apparent that Republicans would not act in good faith was exactly that--a failure.

    In the process, he abandoned more progressive action that might have been possible, only to get absolutely NO bipartisan support for the halfway measures he advanced anyway. It was a failure of courage, I think. Better to try for something real, and fail, than to try for something half-@ssed, and fail.

    I've also never said any of the horsesh!t about Bernie Sanders that you attribute to "us all." There's nothing simple here. Politics is a complex calculus with few certainties. But the fact is, ideas supported by progressive candidates are broadly popular among ALL voters. That's polling data, not "being led there by left-wing populists."

    Your obsession with hating Bernie Sanders and other progressives' approach, and blaming them for problems caused more directly by "moderates" like Manchin and Sinema, is self-delusion of the highest order.

    Tom
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    www.tompamperin.com

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