Page 2 of 12 FirstFirst 123 ... LastLast
Results 36 to 70 of 400

Thread: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

  1. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    39,315

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Why not just abolish the Senate?

  2. #37
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    60,226

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    I disagree. What is the point of having a bi-cameral legislature, otherwise? If you require the Senate to be proportionally representative, you may as well simply abolish the Senate. Are you in favor of abolishing the Senate?
    Well, if we're going to go back to first principles, what's the point of having states? It made sense in 1790, when it took weeks to get a message from Boston to Philadelphia, much less Savannah, but now, when we can travel across the continent in an afternoon, and send a message in microseconds?? Explain why a voter in Vermont or Wyoming should get 6X the representation in the Senate as a voter in Texas or California. please.

    It would work a lot better if the states were of roughly equal population, like House districts - or maybe vary no more than, say 2:1. That's probably what I would do if they appointed me God, but short of that, it ain't happening. But when California has 19 million people, and Wyoming 600,000, that simply doesn't make sense, even though we're stuck with it.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  3. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    downward bound
    Posts
    9,362

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Well, if we're going to go back to first principles, what's the point of having states?
    they are legal bodies with different traditions, same as in 1790?

  4. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    10,934

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Explain why a voter in Vermont or Wyoming should get 6X the representation in the Senate as a voter in Texas or California. please.
    The purpose of the Senate was to represent the interests of the states. It had nothing to do with population or voters.

    But people wanted change.
    Life is complex.

  5. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    60,226

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    they are legal bodies with different traditions, same as in 1790?
    'Legal bodies' certainly, but that's a human construct and can be changed if we want. Different traditions, yes, but MUCH less different culturally than they were in 1790.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  6. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    downward bound
    Posts
    9,362

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    'Legal bodies' certainly, but that's a human construct and can be changed if we want. Different traditions, yes, but MUCH less different culturally than they were in 1790.
    The us population- especially at the political/legal level - were far more mobile in the past. We haven’t had a representative represent more than one state in their life in 50 years. Back in the day they were people who repped New York and then Louisiana, or Vermont and then Kentucky, for two of the more divergent constituencies of the Founders era.


    trampling the divisions of the past is a radical notion, fraught with peril, as the French* and Russians found out.

    *conservatives wedded to Burke never seem to note how many of the revolutionary administrative reforms of France stuck.

  7. #42
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    39,315

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Well, if we're going to go back to first principles, what's the point of having states? It made sense in 1790, when it took weeks to get a message from Boston to Philadelphia, much less Savannah, but now, when we can travel across the continent in an afternoon, and send a message in microseconds?? Explain why a voter in Vermont or Wyoming should get 6X the representation in the Senate as a voter in Texas or California. please.

    It would work a lot better if the states were of roughly equal population, like House districts - or maybe vary no more than, say 2:1. That's probably what I would do if they appointed me God, but short of that, it ain't happening. But when California has 19 million people, and Wyoming 600,000, that simply doesn't make sense, even though we're stuck with it.
    Would you abolish the Senate?

  8. #43
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    Greater Northern Arizona Republic
    Posts
    758

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    The focus on conciliatory brinkmanship seems to highlight a major issue with the Democratic party more than it points a way forward. With progressive ideas polling so well it makes you wonder how they'd do politically if the Dems went full cob. It's always 'a bad moment' for progressive policies when it comes to getting a voting bloc together, but is that the reality or a ready excuse for not ripping the bandaid off?

  9. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hills of Vermont, USA
    Posts
    41,941

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Well, if we're going to go back to first principles, what's the point of having states? It made sense in 1790, when it took weeks to get a message from Boston to Philadelphia, much less Savannah, but now, when we can travel across the continent in an afternoon, and send a message in microseconds?? Explain why a voter in Vermont or Wyoming should get 6X the representation in the Senate as a voter in Texas or California. please.

    It would work a lot better if the states were of roughly equal population, like House districts - or maybe vary no more than, say 2:1. That's probably what I would do if they appointed me God, but short of that, it ain't happening. But when California has 19 million people, and Wyoming 600,000, that simply doesn't make sense, even though we're stuck with it.
    I think it's important to remember that the Senate was not originally intended to represent "the people" but to represent "their state" - IOW the state government. Up until 1914 senators were "elected" by state legislatures. The House was supposed to represent "the people".

    And - CA has 39.5 million people - so the disparity is even worse. Of course VT is a special case so it deserves its power, but you're right to be concerned about WY...
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  10. #45
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    39,315

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I think it's important to remember that the Senate was not originally intended to represent "the people" but to represent "their state" - IOW the state government. Up until 1914 senators were "elected" by state legislatures. The House was supposed to represent "the people".

    And - CA has 39.5 million people - so the disparity is even worse. Of course VT is a special case so it deserves its power, but you're right to be concerned about WY...
    Indeed.

    This was thought necessary to avoid mob rule.

    Personally, I like the Senate as originally intended.

    Another check in the balance.

    I would like to see a Senate constrained to actually govern, rather that the Party Of Treason cluster-[REDACTED] we have now, but the problem is not with the Senate but with the ratfreakers.

  11. #46
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    downward bound
    Posts
    9,362

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    No, not that part of federalist 62, this part of federalist 62
    https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed62.asp

  12. #47
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    60,226

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack it quite that badly.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  13. #48
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Location
    Oriental, NC ,usa
    Posts
    203

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    The purpose of the Senate was to represent the interests of the states. It had nothing to do with population or voters.

    But people wanted change.
    Kind of begs the question and does nothing to foster the one citizen one vote thing that is supposed to be the bed rock of democracy. Oops, forgot that many don't like each citizen to have a vote equal to any other citizen's vote and don't like democracy. Which brings us the the elephant in the voting booth, that being the Electoral College.

  14. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    East Quogue,NY
    Posts
    23,690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandlapper View Post
    Kind of begs the question and does nothing to foster the one citizen one vote thing that is supposed to be the bed rock of democracy. Oops, forgot that many don't like each citizen to have a vote equal to any other citizen's vote and don't like democracy. Which brings us the the elephant in the voting booth, that being the Electoral College.


    But the US is not a democracy, not in the pure sense as you state. It is a republic.

    Kevin


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  15. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    34,281

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    be modest, and be proud of it.

  16. #51
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    18,033

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by offbelayknife View Post
    The focus on conciliatory brinkmanship seems to highlight a major issue with the Democratic party more than it points a way forward. With progressive ideas polling so well it makes you wonder how they'd do politically if the Dems went full cob. It's always 'a bad moment' for progressive policies when it comes to getting a voting bloc together, but is that the reality or a ready excuse for not ripping the bandaid off?
    right, would a forced legislative restructuring of the u.s. into scandanavian style democratic socialism end the culture war? would people suddenly abandon xenophobia, would the anti abortionists become pro choice, would the anti-mask and anti-vaxxers suddenly start following cdc advice, would the coal rollers peel off their bumper stickers, would the all-lives-matter, thin-blue-line crowd suddenly slap their foreheads, "oooohhh, now we get it"....

    ooorrrrr....would the reaction in the next election cycle make the anti-obama, tea party, right wing populist, trumpist reaction of 2016 look like a warm up swing?

    the left in this country can't see past the rational into the dark and primal soul of america. like, this is all just a big misunderstanding.

  17. #52
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    10,934

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandlapper View Post
    Kind of begs the question and does nothing to foster the one citizen one vote thing that is supposed to be the bed rock of democracy. Oops, forgot that many don't like each citizen to have a vote equal to any other citizen's vote and don't like democracy. Which brings us the the elephant in the voting booth, that being the Electoral College.
    The US is a union of states. With that view each state is entitled to an equal vote in a Democracy.

    I am all for changing the federal government. I am even in favor of getting rid of state government. Just let the federal government do everything.

    Don't confuse my understanding how our government is set up with a belief that it should be set up that way. There are certainly a large number of individuals and states that benefit from the current government that would object to change.
    Life is complex.

  18. #53
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    41,161

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by offbelayknife View Post
    The focus on conciliatory brinkmanship seems to highlight a major issue with the Democratic party more than it points a way forward. With progressive ideas polling so well it makes you wonder how they'd do politically if the Dems went full cob. It's always 'a bad moment' for progressive policies when it comes to getting a voting bloc together, but is that the reality or a ready excuse for not ripping the bandaid off?
    My view is a bit different. There are many things in the reconciliation bill that cost money, but also need to be done, looking to the future.

    Addressing these things, like climate change in a serious manner, will be MORE expensive if we put it off.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  19. #54
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    Greater Northern Arizona Republic
    Posts
    758

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    right, would a forced legislative restructuring of the u.s. into scandanavian style democratic socialism end the culture war? would people suddenly abandon xenophobia, would the anti abortionists become pro choice, would the anti-mask and anti-vaxxers suddenly start following cdc advice, would the coal rollers peel off their bumper stickers, would the all-lives-matter, thin-blue-line crowd suddenly slap their foreheads, "oooohhh, now we get it"....

    ooorrrrr....would the reaction in the next election cycle make the anti-obama, tea party, right wing populist, trumpist reaction of 2016 look like a warm up swing?

    the left in this country can't see past the rational into the dark and primal soul of america. like, this is all just a big misunderstanding.

    No, it's not a big misunderstanding. But we seem to agree that making peoples lives better is a good way to ensure future success of the party. It's a question of 'going big' and potentially failing or 'going achievable' where the impact on voting bloc expansion isn't as notable and potentially fails to support longer term strategic vision. From what I can see there's a whole lot more coming from that warm up swing either way. In light of that, is a small win on infrastructure going to make the difference at the polls when that next swing comes? Does it keep that 'dark and primal soul' at bay? Or is it the politics of losing, but slower?

  20. #55
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    18,033

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by offbelayknife View Post
    No, it's not a big misunderstanding. But we seem to agree that making peoples lives better is a good way to ensure future success of the party. It's a question of 'going big' and potentially failing or 'going achievable' where the impact on voting bloc expansion isn't as notable and potentially fails to support longer term strategic vision. From what I can see there's a whole lot more coming from that warm up swing either way. In light of that, is a small win on infrastructure going to make the difference at the polls when that next swing comes? Does it keep that 'dark and primal soul' at bay? Or is it the politics of losing, but slower?
    i don't agree with your characterization, but will set that aside, because there is a third option that you don't mention. which is, we get neither the infrastructure nor reconciliation bills. which is where bernie would lead us. to nothing.

    nancy wants the bills uncoupled because, well, she is a competent leader. i wager joe biden is in on it. because, well, he wants to sign the infrastructure bill. he is the president of everybody, not just the progressive wing of the democratic party. who knew that leadership could be so hard?

  21. #56
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    Greater Northern Arizona Republic
    Posts
    758

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    How gracious of you to excuse a mischaracterization...

    But perhaps in the current moment a party so focused on reigning in its progressive wing is chasing the Overton window to its peril.

    Leadership is hard indeed.

  22. #57
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    18,033

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by offbelayknife View Post

    Leadership is hard indeed.
    thatís why you get the big bucks, brothm!

  23. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    77,353

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by offbelayknife View Post
    How gracious of you to excuse a mischaracterization...

    But perhaps in the current moment a party so focused on reigning in its progressive wing is chasing the Overton window to its peril.

    Leadership is hard indeed.
    That's the tricky part... judging where the window is & how fast any given policy is moving into or out of favor. In general, it's slow and incremental. But it's always amazed me how much variance there is in speed. And how, sometimes, there can seemingly be little/no movement, then a catalyst, and voila' it's policy.

    And then there's the pr. Dems suck at the 'crafting a convincing narrative' thing. Partly, methinks, because they choose to limit their stories mostly to the truth. And partly just because they are. Molly Ivins had some pithy thoughts on that topic.

    But there are a lot of moving pieces for a politician to juggle. A lot of factors to consider. That's why it's important to elect smart ones.

    Which is part of why I support public funding of political campaigns. I don't want currying favor with big donors to be a factor. One less complication, and - more importantly - it shifts back to the public as their main constituency. Eliminates a big source of perverse and toxic deformation of policy. And eliminates the stupid but crafty (and venal) sorts who present themselves to those big donors as willing to sell their souls for the job.
    Last edited by David G; 09-30-2021 at 08:22 PM.

  24. #59
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hills of Vermont, USA
    Posts
    41,941

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    So - the progs lay out what they would like (which is to deliver Biden's full set of programs) and Sinema & Manchin sit back & say no without telling us what would be OK by them & it's the progs' fault?

    OK...
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  25. #60
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    41,161

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    I don't think it's that simple. We spend more now to do things that are truly needed, or we'll spend MORE later to do them.

    Look at what we've spent money on in recent years: two dumb wars and tax cuts for the super wealthy.

    A fair tax system, IMO, would be those with 90% of the wealth pay 90% of the taxes, rather than the 40% I'm told they pay now.

    If we fail to address climate change in a substantial way, how much more are we going to spend repairing damages from more frequent and more damaging storms.

    Pelosi can likely get her house on board, but Sinema? Manchin?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

  26. #61
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    18,033

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    So - the progs lay out what they would like (which is to deliver Biden's full set of programs) and Sinema & Manchin sit back & say no without telling us what would be OK by them & it's the progs' fault?

    OK...
    actually, for manchin's part at least, he told shumer in july about the monetary limit he would accept, 1.5t as opposed to 3.5. they actually signed a document together, don't know why.

    this is not to defend manchin. i don't know what to think about money anymore. under donald we created a couple trillion just for personal gifts from him to his loyal subjects. what's a few trillion more to a good cause.

    i don't blame bernie or anyone for supporting the big number reconciliation bill. but, the infrastructure bill is a positive thing, a winner in every way. we need it. biden needs it. everybody on all sides needs it, to be reassured that our government can still be useful, and that not every single thing it does is a partisan football.

  27. #62
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    60,226

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by offbelayknife View Post
    But perhaps in the current moment a party so focused on reigning in its progressive wing is chasing the Overton window to its peril. .
    I'm not sure that's what's happening here at all - although it has at times in the past. 'A desperate attempt to maintain unity with a razor-thin majority' might be a better description.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  28. #63
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    downward bound
    Posts
    9,362

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    actually, for manchin's part at least, he told shumer in july about the monetary limit he would accept, 1.5t as opposed to 3.5. they actually signed a document together, don't know why.

    this is not to defend manchin. i don't know what to think about money anymore. under donald we created a couple trillion just for personal gifts from him to his loyal subjects. what's a few trillion more to a good cause.

    i don't blame bernie or anyone for supporting the big number reconciliation bill. but, the infrastructure bill is a positive thing, a winner in every way. we need it. biden needs it. everybody on all sides needs it, to be reassured that our government can still be useful, and that not every single thing it does is a partisan football.
    big number? It’s less than half the projected defense budget over the same time frame.

    let’s be clear here, “republicans” and “moderates” don’t object to spending big $ in the slightest. They don’t object to welfare for the mic at all. But the thought of actually helping people* makes them break out in hives.

    *people who aren’t business owners and the rentier class. After all we gave the, $0.8 trillion in welfare last year.
    Last edited by Hugh Conway; 10-01-2021 at 08:51 AM.

  29. #64
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    60,226

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    I think calling Mr Manchin a 'moderate' is inaccurate. He's not; too far right for that. Before white southerners switched parties, there used to be a lot of conservative Democrats from the ex-Confederacy, because Lincoln and Grant were Republicans.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  30. #65
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    18,033

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    it may be that the only use for barely-democrats like manchin and sinema is that they do not as a matter of principle oppose biden doing something, anything. that they will vote for modest proposals and judicial nominees, etc.

    blame them all you want for not getting tax increases and the 3.5 trillion in social spending. pelosi moving to uncouple means that it's not happening. she would know. and people of good faith have to deal with it.

  31. #66
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    downward bound
    Posts
    9,362

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Manchin sank at least one of Biden’s nominees. I agree manchin isn’t a moderate, but the media hacks have sold him that way.

  32. #67
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Pompano Beach, FLorida
    Posts
    1,194

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    The purpose of the Senate was to represent the interests of the states. It had nothing to do with population or voters.

    But people wanted change.
    That is correct. The question at this point though is if we as a country want the needs to the state to override the needs of the people. Especially given that multiple states were admitted to the union for the express purpose of overriding the growing populations in existing states.

  33. #68
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    18,033

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    the fact is, democrats lost ground in the house, split the senate, and only won the presidency because the other guy was the biggest adzhole ever, in 2020. and that was with a big voter turnout.

    it's probably fair to call manchin a dem in name only. it's also fair to note that dems only hold the senate based on the tie-break vote of the vp.

    kamala harris. talk about your culture war. you want the vote of kamala harris to bring "socialism" to the u.s.?

    '22 may be a bloodbath anyway.

    my opinion, best thing to do is to promote the idea that there is no real difference between the parties, except that dems at least get roads and bridges fixed. let the culture war cool a bit, if possible. give the less committed righties permission to go back to their non-voting, self-interested lives.

    to ramp up calls for a socialist revolution is just the wrong thing.

  34. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    downward bound
    Posts
    9,362

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvida View Post
    That is correct. The question at this point though is if we as a country want the needs to the state to override the needs of the people. Especially given that multiple states were admitted to the union for the express purpose of overriding the growing populations in existing states.
    It’s not correct actually, and the belief it is only justifies the one way dysfunction of the senate. The founders didn’t intend for “advise and consent” to mean one party takes control over the courts by bad faith lies.

    I guess the bilge galaxy brain doesn’t pay any attention to the actual culture war? They are already calling Dems socialists and Marxists. They argue the police have been defunded. Maybe actually do what they call you?

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    18,033

    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    ah yes, the old "i'll give you something to cry about" belt whipping.

    it is true that a big chunk of deplorables are going to be deplorable, no matter what.

    but with an electorate so evenly split, we need turn only a fraction of conservative voters towards rational, cooperative behavior. bring them back into the fold of shared reality. give them a reason to say something inane like "well, at least biden got infrastructure done" and turn back to their lives and away from the fight. the fight is killing us.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •