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Thread: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

  1. #1
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    Default bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    if the self-proclaimed progressives have their way, the trillion dollar infrastructure bill will remain coupled to the 3.5 trillion wish list, and we will get nothing.

    bernie is still playing activist, not leading toward the best manageable solution. just like his entire career, mostly tearing down his allies to remain pure himself.

    what bernie had to say. note his mention of the "democratic caucus", always holding the party at arm's length like a dirty sock.

    "Let's be crystal clear," Sanders tweeted, using one of his signature phrases. "If the bipartisan infrastructure bill is passed on its own on Thursday, this will be in violation of an agreement that was reached within the Democratic Caucus in Congress."

    He added: "More importantly, it will end all leverage that we have to pass a major reconciliation bill.

    "That means there will be no serious effort to address the long-neglected crises facing the working families of our country, the children, the elderly, the sick and the poor."

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    In this case, I think Chait's right; the main problem isn't the Democratic left. (Source)

    If You Think Progressives Won’t Compromise with Centrists, You Have It Backwards
    Liberals are begging to negotiate with centrists.
    By Jonathan Chait

    The impression has taken hold with many people who have moderate inclinations that the Democratic Party is split between moderate pragmatists and left-wing ideologues who refuse to compromise. “There are growing signs the Biden agenda could collapse because too many Democrats have unrealistic expectations and refuse to compromise,” opined one of those research firms that recirculates conventional wisdom for investors. Charlie Sykes, editor of the center-right Bulwark, claims progressive Democrats are “threatening to torpedo the bipartisan bill (and with it the Biden presidency) if they don’t get what they want.”

    The truth of the situation at hand is almost precisely the opposite. The people who are willing to compromise and accept half a loaf are the progressives. The ones who refuse to negotiate are the centrists. Just listen to what the progressives are saying:

    “What we have said is that if there is an agreement that the president strikes on this Build Back Better agenda, we will vote for the bipartisan bill, we’re willing to negotiate,” Representative Ro Khanna said on CNN. “The president keeps begging [Senator Kyrsten Sinema], ‘Tell us what you want. Put a proposal forward’ … How do you compromise when Sinema isn’t saying anything?”

    Congressional Progressive Caucus Chair Pramila Jayapal: “They need to tell us what they don’t agree with. And we need to be able to actually negotiate it.”

    Jayapal, again: “If they don’t tell us what they want to do, which was the president’s message, and if they don’t actually negotiate on the entire bill, then we’re not going to get too close.”

    Representative Jim McGovern: “I think a lot of us want to make sure we have an assurance that, in fact, there’s going to be a reconciliation bill.”

    They are not making implacable demands. They are begging the centrists to simply negotiate.

    The fear hanging over their position is that, once they have their bipartisan infrastructure deal in hand, some decisive number of centrist Democrats — it would take just one in the Senate or four in the House — will take their ball and go home. Nobody knows whether that would actually happen. But the progressives are hardly imagining this possibility. Over the weekend, the New York Times reported that Sinema “has privately told colleagues she will not accept any corporate or income tax rate increases.” No other publication has matched this explosive finding, which might turn out to exaggerate her stance. On the other hand, she has not publicly denied it. Sinema also reportedly opposes both Biden’s plan to allow Medicare to negotiate prices with drug companies, and even opposes a scaled-back version designed to be less unacceptable to Big Pharma.

    The entire Biden program is financed through a combination of taxing the wealthy through higher income or corporate taxes and cutting spending by negotiating lower drug prices. So if Sinema actually holds the positions indicated by these reports, she would kill Biden’s program outright. Biden’s domestic legacy is only going to be as large as its financing sources, and if Sinema opposes all those sources, the size of the bill she ultimately supports isn’t going to be $3.5 trillion or $2 trillion or $1.5 trillion, but zero. Business lobbyists are very clearly hoping to pass to pass the bipartisan infrastructure bill — which, at the insistence of Republicans, does not make any wealthy sources pay even a cent — and then kill Build Back Better. “Business groups and some Senate Republicans,” reports the Times, have “mounted an all-out drive to secure G.O.P. votes for a bipartisan infrastructure bill.”

    Since Sinema is holding fundraisers with the same lobbyists who are pushing to pass infrastructure and kill Build Back Better, it seems at least possible that she is onboard with their strategy. Perhaps she just wants to scale back Biden’s plan and has some specific objections she can share in private. The problem is that she’s acting like somebody who wants to kill Biden’s program outright. Progressives can’t be blamed for suspecting a betrayal, especially when she refuses to give even the barest reassurance.

    We have grown accustomed to showdowns between ideologues and pragmatists, mainly within the GOP. (This explains why refugees from the Republican Party have instinctively equated progressive negotiating positions with maximalism and centrist stances with reasonableness.) But in this case, the progressives are begging the centrists to meet them somewhere in the middle. The centrists — really, just the tiny handful of holdouts — are refusing to negotiate, threatening to torpedo the entire Biden presidency if they don’t get exactly what they want. One thing that has enabled their tactics to succeed is the knee-jerk assumption by people with moderate inclinations to attribute reasonableness to any self-styled centrist posture. But nothing could be less reasonable than refusing to negotiate or articulate your position.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Unless manchin and sinema have turned into progressives, it ain’t the progressives fault. And if you’d been paying attention, those two have in bad faith negotiated it down to nothing for their corporate masters.


    manchin is a corrupt moron, sinema is a clown.


    and f the dc politics press corps

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    These wretched toadies to oligarch authority should review the Welfare Clause.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    In this case, I think Chait's right; the main problem isn't the Democratic left. (Source)
    I agree.

    The problem is that the Democrats don't have a coalition that is willing to pass legislation. The Democratic right has no reason to negotiate. There are no proposals or compromises that have a good outcome for them.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    There are no proposals or compromises that have a good outcome for them.
    Lie.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    More conservative democrats in red states do not have to compromise. with 3.5 trillion in spending, how much pork is coming home to them as compared to other states which are pushing a liberal agendas?
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    More conservative democrats in red states do not have to compromise. with 3.5 trillion in spending, how much pork is coming home to them as compared to other states which are pushing a liberal agendas?
    West Virginians are in in favor of the pork bill Ted. I realize the cares of actual flyover country people don’t matter though.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    I believe the Reds have, historically, received the lions share of the largesse. Welfare states.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Agree that the democratic party is a dirty sock.

    I must tell you again that Bernie is not the problem.
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Better a dirty sock that a Proud Boys rally. Socks can be washed. I agree that in this case, Bernie Sanders is not the problem.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Better a dirty sock that a Proud Boys rally. Socks can be washed. I agree that in this case, Bernie Sanders is not the problem.
    the unfortunate outcome of the supposed “moderates”* is going to be a primary purging of the more centrist Dems. This is popular policy nationwide.

    * a garbage press framing of the two ideological incoherents intransigence

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I agree.

    The problem is that the Democrats don't have a coalition that is willing to pass legislation. The Democratic right has no reason to negotiate. There are no proposals or compromises that have a good outcome for them.
    As I understand it, ALL democratic senators had agreed to the big reconciliation bill.

    What's wrong with expecting them to keep their word?
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    More conservative democrats in red states do not have to compromise. with 3.5 trillion in spending, how much pork is coming home to them as compared to other states which are pushing a liberal agendas?
    One of the holdouts is from a state Biden won.
    "alternative facts (lies)" are a cancer eating through a democracy, and will kill it. 1st amendment is not absolute.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    i will put you lot down for "don't want nothing if we can't have everything, and we mean now!"

    it's like you folks forgot we are battling to the death for our republic.

    the infrastructure bill is a slam dunk win for the biden administration and the democratic party. it is the most beautiful thing to run on in '22. holding it hostage to a bong dream is suicide.

    what we will have instead is a crushing defeat. blame it on manchin and sinema. who cares?

    the more progressive action, in reality, is to win. to win we have to succeed where the republicans failed.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    West Virginians are in in favor of the pork bill Ted. I realize the cares of actual flyover country people don’t matter though.
    Let put this into perspective - Manchin represents fewer citizens than my nearby city of Oakland, California.

    CHARLESTON, W.Va. (AP) — The red wave that has swept West Virginia over the past decade now includes historic gains in Republican voter registration numbers, according to figures released Thursday.
    There are now about 448,900 registered Republicans, or 36.8% of all registered voters in West Virginia, according to figures released by the secretary of state’s office. That compares to about 444,600 registered Democrats, or 36.5%.
    An additional 275,000 registered voters, or 22.6%, had no party affiliation. The rest were affiliated with minor political parties.

    Joe Machin lives on a houseboat in the district. He is getting harassed at home because of the bill. No body likes to be bullied and not in front of thier home.

    Screen Shot 2021-09-30 at 9.05.02 AM.jpg
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    Let put this into perspective - Manchin represents fewer citizens than my nearby city of Oakland, California.

    CHARLESTON, W.Va. (AP) — The red wave that has swept West Virginia over the past decade now includes historic gains in Republican voter registration numbers, according to figures released Thursday.
    There are now about 448,900 registered Republicans, or 36.8% of all registered voters in West Virginia, according to figures released by the secretary of state’s office. That compares to about 444,600 registered Democrats, or 36.5%.
    An additional 275,000 registered voters, or 22.6%, had no party affiliation. The rest were affiliated with minor political parties.

    Joe Machin lives on a houseboat in the district. He is getting harassed at home because of the bill. No body likes to be bullied and not in front of thier home.

    Screen Shot 2021-09-30 at 9.05.02 AM.jpg

    yeah, that houseboat is just for partys to court lobbyists and donors, how dare actual people disrupt the corruption of DC

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    Let's put this into perspective - Manchin represents fewer citizens than my nearby city of Oakland, California.
    And half as many people as the city I live in. But that's an objection to the Senate in general - a valid one, certainly, but the odds of changing it anytime soon are in the sparkly pink unicorn class.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by switters View Post
    Agree that the democratic party is a dirty sock.

    I must tell you again that Bernie is not the problem.
    that would depend on the electorate, no?

    how has the electorate behaved since, oh let's say, october of 2015, when bernie first accused the female-led dnc of rigging the nomination process against him?

    if you think the democratic party is a dirty sock, you might be part of the electorate.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    My developing impression echoes Chait.

    The Dems have allowed themselves to be Lucy'd enough times that at least some of them can see it coming again.

    But it's gonna come down to the usual re-election considerations, arm-twisting, deal-making, and log-rolling.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Lie.
    You may be confusing what is good for the electorate with what is good for the candidate.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    that would depend on the electorate, no?

    how has the electorate behaved since, oh let's say, october of 2015, when bernie first accused the female-led dnc of rigging the nomination process against him?

    if you think the democratic party is a dirty sock, you might be part of the electorate.
    I am the electorate, and held my nose and voted for the dirty sock. Democrats are centrist, I would like some change. a change to fresh socks.

    It is understandable to blame the purity ponies for electoral losses. I think of it as the old centrist party leaders not doing a good job of getting the message out. YMMV, obviously. And thats ok, or if you think calling me part of the electorate is an insinuation that I am republican and not in line with "your" personal views, then this response was a waste of my time.
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    i am willing to concede, for the sake of argument, that chait is 100% correct. so is bernie.

    so what?

    what should we do?

    as nancy pelosi said regarding bernie's ultimatum, "we each have to do what we have to do".

    pelosi has to govern. she has to visualize a better future and pursue it in pragmatic terms. she has to win.

    the only thing bernie feels an obligation to, is himself. he can take being "right" to the grave.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by switters View Post
    I am the electorate, and held my nose and voted for the dirty sock. Democrats are centrist, I would like some change. a change to fresh socks.

    It is understandable to blame the purity ponies for electoral losses. I think of it as the old centrist party leaders not doing a good job of getting the message out. YMMV, obviously. And thats ok, or if you think calling me part of the electorate is an insinuation that I am republican and not in line with "your" personal views, then this response was a waste of my time.
    no, i don't think you are a republican. i suspect that you and i are both in favor of a more democratic socialist future. getting there matters to me more than anything else.

    not getting there could mean a right wing authoritarian future. we are on the razor's edge. we can't afford to lose. my argument is that, not taking the infrastructure win would be a catastrophic loss.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    The Democratic establishment should lean on Manchin and Sinema (discreetly, in private) with all the force they can manage, and a little more. Self-interest is a powerful motivator with those two, and there's a LOT of leverage available.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    "build back better" isn't dead if it doesn't pass this year.

    it may well be that centrist dems won't play ball on the bigger package no matter what. call it the landscape.

    we need to take the infrastructure bill and call it step one in "build back better". change the landcape in '22, '24, and beyond.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    The Democratic establishment should lean on Manchin and Sinema (discreetly, in private) with all the force they can manage, and a little more. Self-interest is a powerful motivator with those two, and there's a LOT of leverage available.
    leverage, like what? be explicit.

    legislators are elected by, and serve, their constituents. what leverage does the party have over those constituents? if you think that pork is enough, you are not observing our country carefully.

    oh, for the days when the voters could be bribed with pork!

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    And half as many people as the city I live in. But that's an objection to the Senate in general - a valid one, certainly, but the odds of changing it anytime soon are in the sparkly pink unicorn class.
    I disagree.

    What is the point of having a bi-cameral legislature, otherwise?

    If you require the Senate to be proportionally representative, you may as well simply abolish the Senate.

    Are you in favor of abolishing the Senate?

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    no, i don't think you are a republican. i suspect that you and i are both in favor of a more democratic socialist future. getting there matters to me more than anything else.

    not getting there could mean a right wing authoritarian future. we are on the razor's edge. we can't afford to lose. my argument is that, not taking the infrastructure win would be a catastrophic loss.
    Either the DNC is blind to that fact, or they're too chickenspit to fight, or they are going Vichy.

    This is the single most important issue facing this country.

    More important than sexism, racism, climate change, taxes and the economy ALL TOGETHER.

    The fact that the DNC is too polite to mention it is criminal in its own right.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    The Democratic establishment should lean on Manchin and Sinema (discreetly, in private) with all the force they can manage, and a little more. Self-interest is a powerful motivator with those two, and there's a LOT of leverage available.
    sinema held a closed door fundraiser with energy companies the other day; the opponents of this bill have more leverage in the short term.

    the idea that some redneck is gonna be outraged over $3.5 trillion, but not $1.5 trillion, is such press generated bollocks. They’ll be outraged either way if they want to be.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    The Democratic establishment should lean on Manchin and Sinema (discreetly, in private) with all the force they can manage, and a little more. Self-interest is a powerful motivator with those two, and there's a LOT of leverage available.
    Machin is enjoying the political celebrity. He gets to play kingmaker daily on Cable news thereby having more power than he would otherwise have. He is on nearly 7 days a week. Why would be ever give it up? Why would we even know his name if he did not play the game. I have to beleive he gets so much joy, pleasure, cash and profile than the usual toady senator would normally get. Fame and power are the ultimate aphrodisiac - i am sure he get more than his fair share.
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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    Machin is enjoying the political celebrity. He gets to play kingmaker on Cable news thereby having more power than he would otherwise have. Why would be ever give it up? Why would we even know his name if he did not play the game. I have to beleive he gets so much joy, pleasure, cash and profile than the usual toady senator would normally get. Fame and power are the ultimate aphrodisiac - i am sure he get more than his fair share.
    if he doesn’t want to give it up, he’s got a really bad way of showing it. Because he’s doing all he can to make sure he’s irrelevant come January 2022. Not even a footnote.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    the left forgets, at really inconvenient moments, that our nation is locked in a culture war.

    in a culture war, people are not driven to vote principally, if at all, for their economic self interest.

    it doesn't matter much which individual economic policies are popular.

    thinking that we can flip a switch and the culture war will dissolve is a pipe dream. this is a generational fight. scratch and claw for survival, or lose the whole thing.

    and day by day, we need government. being the party of competence in governing is part of a winning strategy in the culture war. being the party of screeching rectitude is a losing strategy.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    I disagree.

    What is the point of having a bi-cameral legislature, otherwise?

    If you require the Senate to be proportionally representative, you may as well simply abolish the Senate.

    Are you in favor of abolishing the Senate?
    Proportional representation in your Senate could see the birth of diversity. You could have other than Blue or Red. Imagine a Green law maker in the US Federal government.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

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    Default Re: bernie leads the charge to get nothing, again

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Proportional representation in your Senate could see the birth of diversity. You could have other than Blue or Red. Imagine a Green law maker in the US Federal government.
    Has proportional representation in the House seen the birth of diversity?

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